. I think i will fool around with some of the calcs to see what i came come up with and will post any results here. I appreciate all your help, information and effort on this subject. I suspect I owe you a couple of good scotches, or at least some asprin for the the headaches I have caused.....I think if you could eventually calculate everything "perfectly"...you'd STILL find that you'd be dribbling off runs, with long run times, etc. Whether or not you could get it fixed to where it didn't have the flavor issues, etc., would be another thing. But, frankly on a 2"....I think most people would probably just as soon stuff a bit of mesh up the tube and put a coil in the top and be done with it. Gotta stop now...my head hurting again.
devotus wrote:Great thread
flyingdutchman wrote:More questions,
In order to do the calculations I guess I need more initial data so for those of you have have built these here are some design questions for you.
1) Assuming you are watt burners what wattage do you run these at (1250?)
2) Since you run dephlegmators what is your target reflux ratio
Most of my stuff is documented in the "new take on old design" ODs magic flute mk 2 thread. But, I''m gonna quote/repost some stuff here for sake of this thread/research, etc.:3) What is your typical distillate collection rate (300 ml/30 minutes?)
I have ran Flute Mk2 a couple of times now and fixed all of the wrinkles (leaks) etc, and I decided to try my current fermentation of UJSSM using the plate dissabling system in an attempt to achieve a 65ABV takeoff. I took of foreshots and heads with all plates engaged, restacked the column, and proceeded to take the hearts,I sampled he spirit using a spoon full of water and a few drops of alcohol from the parrot, it was nice and clean as usual with a nice creamy corn taste. I dissabled all of the plates except the bottom plate, and watched the ABV descend to the required 65%, I again tested the spirit with my usual spoon full of water and a few drops of alcohol from the parrot. The taste was crap gone was the clean corney taste, and the taste I was getting was not nice at all. I engaged all of the plates again, and back came the 90%ABV with that nice clean corn taste.
Some may like the ability to dissable plates in the column, and the system does work as designed, but from now on I will be running with all plates firing, for me the taste is better.
Just finished my first spirit run using the new 2 incher. 5 Gals of UJSM low-wines and feints at 45%. I think I've got to agree with OD's findings on this. The distillate was harsh and bitter. It started at 85%. I ran off about 9 pints and it dropped from 85% to 80% during that time. None of it was drinkable. So, all this is going back in the pot for tomorrow. Think I'll just run it off with my potstill head so I have something to put in my barrel (need to get that started soon).
Running it was a chore. Never could quite get it dialed right. It seemed if I even had "any" water trickling out of the top of the dephleg...the distillate would just stop. So, I had it where every now and again...it would dump some water out of the top...but that slowed the stream down to about 3 drops per sec. It was taking way longer than even my bok does. So, I tried upping the heat just a bit...so I could try and get some flow to the dephleg and still have some kind of output. Didn't work.
I'm a little disappointed and obviously have more to learn. Not sure how to get the dephleg straightened out. The only way to get a "stream" output of distillate on this was to turn the water to the dephleg "off". If the water was even remotely on, it would cut the stream down a dribble/drops. But, I'm not giving up. Going to add another plate soon, and give it another go. In the meantime..if anybody has any suggestions?
Heres' the data from the first run:
3:02 pint 84%
3:30 pint 84%
4:07 pint 84%
4:38 pint 84%
5:10 pint 83%
5:45 pint 83%
6:25 pint 83%
6:52 300ml 82%
7:23 pint 81%
7:43 300ml 80%
Shut down at that point.
200ml 77% head temp 182F (went up to 190, had to adjust water flow)
200ml 79% 182F
200ml 79% 182F
200ml 81% 182F (temp rose to 191F, adjust water)
200ml 74% (made note here that I was having trouble controlling temp)
250ml 77% 192F (emptied the parrot and re-equalized for 15mins down to 180F)
100ml 80% 186F (would not flow at 180, temp going to 192F, cannot control temp tails coming)
150ml 67% 204F
100ml 45% 206F (re-equalize one more time, for 15 mins)
200ml 40% (won't hold temp anymore)
240ml of fores 93% (Vapor temp 178F, Water temp 112F)
1 - pint 92.5% V=179+, W=130F
2 - pint 92% V=140+ (distillate streaming now) W=140F
3 - pint 90.5% V=179+, W=145F
4 -300ml 90% (emptied parrot)
5 - pint 90% V=180F, W=160F (water flow out of balance, restabilized)
6 - pint 91% V=180F, W=140F (distillate back to dribble)
7 - pint 90% V=180, W=150F
8 - pint 89% V=180, W=160F (adjusted water flow up slightly)
9 - pint 91% V=180, W=150F
10 - pint 89% V=180, W=160F (re-equalized for a couple mins)
11 - pint 91% V=179, W=120-160F (tails)
12 - pint 85% V=186, W=178F (can no longer hold temp, turning off water and flushing out rest of tails)
The good news was...my new dephlegm was very responsive. Slight adjustments, which happened quickly, could bring the proof back and stabilize things. The bad news was there was a small leak right at the join of the needle valve into the dephlegm that was causing some surging. I tied a rag around it, but could still here it sucking at the rag. The distillate was coming out it in "lots"..ie., drip, dribble, stream, pause...repeat. I'm guessing this was probably because of the leak. But, despite the variances, it managed to hold/stabilize along the way for good bits of time. Which brings me to the other bad part...despite finally getting some flow-rate, etc., dailed in...the run still took over 9 hours start to finish. And the distillate was rather disappointing —I got about the same flavor range as I do on a potstill...ie., lots of heads, a couple middle jars, then tails. The only difference was...at 90%...the heads are intense, the middle was scratchy/bitter, and the tails taste chemical. Could be it just needs to be cleaned some more. But, I experienced similar results running my boka in potstill mode. So, I don't think my bubble plates are working like they should. (ie., I'm not seeing any heads/tails compression).
At that point, Vapor temp (V) was 172F and the water temp (W) was about 100-102F. I dripped off the fores like this...very slowly. Water got out of balance here and there and I had to make a few adjustments.
I took 120ml of fores at V=177F/W=150F (2-3 drops per sec). From there it went like this:
1 - 200ml V=178 W=160F 90% (adjusting heat up slightly to Med-Hi and water flow down to stream distillate)
2 - 200ml V=180 W=140 90%
3 - 200ml V=180 W=150 86% (adjusted water to maintain stream)
4 - 200ml V=184 W=160 85%
5 - 200ml V=186 W=160 82% (re-equalized for 15 mins, then reduced water flow, raised heat to get it to flow again)
6 - 200ml V=182 W=160 87%
7 - 200ml V=186 W=168 70% (Flushing tails out, turned water off)
8 - 300ml V=204 W=190 40%
9 250ml (emptied parrot)
Total run time...start to finish was about 5.75 hours.
Generally, a 2" (50mm) diameter is an ideal size to use. This will happily run from 750W up to 2500W without any trouble. If in doubt, go for 2".
Its this amount of energy that you put in which will determine the rate at which you make and collect the distillate. If collected at the condenser at say 95%, it works out roughly to the following figures. If you run a reflux ratio of 4 (e.g. return 40 mL for every 10 mL you keep - typical for SS scrubbers) - then the second figure is the flowrate you'd expect to collect at ...
1000 W = 52 mL/min (max, no reflux) or 10 mL/min (if RR=4)
1500 W = 78 mL/min (max, no reflux) or 16 mL/min (if RR=4)
2000 W = 105 mL/min (max, no reflux) or 21 mL/min (if RR=4)
2500 W = 131 mL/min (max, no reflux) or 26 mL/min (if RR=4)
3000 W = 157 mL/min (max, no reflux) or 32 mL/min (if RR=4)
3500 W = 183 mL/min (max, no reflux) or 36 mL/min (if RR=4)
4000 W = 209 mL/min (max, no reflux) or 42 mL/min (if RR=4)
The only points I noticed, were I got better results in not going past 2/3’s full on the keg – half full keg for Bourbon/Wiskeys etc were best . Any more then this I was getting surging and gave not so good results – mixed bag in the cuts.
devotus wrote:A fantastic post that I wish I's read 6 months ago. Respect for taking the time to post such a detailed response.
All advice regardless of plated column or not should point the newbie away from diameters less than 3 inch, yes 3 inch and above cost a lot but the pain in the butt that smaller diameters are aren't worth the saving of a $100 or so.
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