2 inch plated columns problems?

[devotus]

I feel like this is a generality as I had previously mentioned that my vapor chase is mostly 1.5,,,,,though I do use the 4" to hold/manage the liquid bath.

are you talking about that thumper tower column you built?

I unfortunately can't look up individuals builds, only posts and you have a fair few so searching through all of them to find all of your builds is a little onerous.

If you are talking about the thumper column then wouldn't the thumper and 4 inch plate section make the world of difference to a straight 2 inch column?

Also and please don't read this as if I'm being an arse but generality is pretty much how this thread is based, as in general the findings for 2 inch plated columns aren't favourable however there are exceptions. Also as USGE said (paraphrasing) a 2 inch plated column can produce decent distillate but there is no real improvement over speed of a normal packed 2 inch Boka.

Of course usge did point out that abv of wash and size of boiler supplying the column does play a role.

It was merely my point (somewhat off topic) that unless you absolutely haven't got the space then the pain of a small diameter column isn't worth the money saved, in fact running time and power/gas used would probably eat any savings made.

[LWTCS]

If you are talking about the thumper column then wouldn't the thumper and 4 inch plate section make the world of difference to a straight 2 inch column?

Also and please don't read this as if I'm being an arse but generality is pretty much how this thread is based, as in general the findings for 2 inch plated columns aren't favourable however there are exceptions. Also as USGE said (paraphrasing) a 2 inch plated column can produce decent distillate but there is no real improvement over speed of a normal packed 2 inch Boka.

Arse?? Not at all. This is an excellent exchange.
I am more or less thinking out loud that the 2is not really the issue here as the vapor within my rig travels through a 1.5,,,,,, and can piss right along. Though I do understand that my rig is not the same as a solo piece of 2" tubing.....
Just thinking about what constitutes a favorable environment for good separation is all. Sorry for sounding wonky but there is some gray area here,,,, a missing link if you will that I am trying to think about but do not have the mental ammunition....
I got Dog's Master's Impact rig diagram on my brain, and he talks about smaller sized tubing tubing and so forth.....
Again,,,,just thinking about what kind of environment/ behavior is most truthful for preferred separation..

Sorry for the drift

[devotus]

just thinking about what kind of environment/ behavior is most truthful for preferred separation..

well that's just it (I think). It was mentioned that the 2 inch plated sometimes created some bad tastes and suspected that it was smearing and then concentration of the bad smear taste.

So thinking out loud maybe if you were to have a 2 inch plated then you'd need extra height and plates and a big arse boiler (so there is plenty of alc to draw from) to get it to work properly.

Maybe also LWTCS, your thumper system would be greatly suited to a 2 inch as long as the boiler was also big enough so the thumper could keeep the plates filling with high % alcohol without making the whole system struggle from just drawing from the boiler?

I think you'd still have to run it slowly but you'd get good seperation. maybe.

edit; that was very badly explained.

[flyingdutchman]

Ok so I really like the OD's stumpy in fact its basically what i wanted to build from the get go however i cant find any of OD's specs or any original work on it, some of the links seem like they are just gone? I dont see why the bypass column had issues i mean if 2 plates had no problems I just dont see why 1 would and that is in 4 inch. Someone elses work and I would think maybe it was related to the bypass system but that doesnt seem likely all of Od's stuff seems too well thought out so again I am at a total loss. Here is something else to consider. Look a GM's evil twin set up I hope its ok to repost it here it just makes it easier for everyone to see...

twin_columns.JPG (5.63 KiB) Viewed 159 times

Its a take on OD's work. Its in 2 inch with 4 inch plate spacing and he seems happy with the taste from what I can tell

I have to say I"m impressed how extremely sensitive the delph settings are. A slight little change on this right and the whole equilibrium completely shifts! Luckly I found the sweets spot early on this run and ended up collecting .8 gallons, most of it at %90 !

I only used about half a gallon for blending, and it averaged %89-90 (the whole 1/2 gallon before diluting)

This was 2nd generation of UJSSM, 12-14 gallons or so of it that had been fermented to about %11. I collected it at a speed of 1 pint/12 minutes. After cutting and diluting I now have 6 liters of nice vodka. I think the next run I'll start to experiment with my Gin botanicals.

What i can say is man thats a loooong column and a lotta plates and check out his take off rate it aint pissing but it aint bad for a 2 inch spirit run either????

[olddog]

Ok so I really like the OD's stumpy in fact its basically what i wanted to build from the get go however i cant find any of OD's specs or any original work on it

Stumpy was just a 2 plate prototype, which was developed further and turned out to be Flute MkII.


OD

[flyingdutchman]

Thanks OD,
I appreciate it.

[Usge]

Good to have ODs input here (thanks!). It will certainly help. Aside from the obvious issue with the plates, I never said 2" was no good. What I said was...if you want to run 2" (anything"), you'll be dripping off your runs to avoid smearing. The higher the reflux ratio you want to run (whether plates or otherwise), the less you'll be able to take off. As LWTCS alluded to, there is a certain range of vapor speed you can run based on starting volume before you are just going to get smearing. And from there there is a certain balance that has to be maintained. Anything that throws these things off, will have an impact on smearing.

I'm guessing more tweaking to the plates, (distance?, downcomers, etc), as well as much slower take off rates, might help the constant smearing issue I was having. But, I think the important thing to remember here was one of the attributes of the plated columns was that it could be run at much higher take off rates than other designs. At least this was the thinking at the time. As I recall (and OD can correct me if I"m wrong), OD "did" build an early version that was very similar to the drawing you have above, using smaller diameter tube than the flute, and using external downcomers. In the end, as I recall, OD just didn't feel it was that efficient, and it didn't meet the goals he was looking for...and that included refined spirit at higher take off rates (ie., a stream, or potstill take off rates).

So, I think part of this is just unrealistic expectations for what the 2" can do— no matter how many plates, downcomers, etc., you hang off it. My early thinking was that it was the "plates" themselves and dephleg that made this work — or made the "flute" capable of taking off a stream while still raining down distillate into the columns and chewing that up all the way to the very end, where it eeks out a bit of tails. Or put differently, that if you stick plates and a depleg in a 2" column, that 2" column will be able to be run at a stream (albeit smaller than the 4" model), and achieve similar results. It didn't pan out that way. And after a lot of thinking and researching, experimenting and some others pointing the way...I just came to the conclusion that there's only so much vapor you can get out of a 2" tube..and it's just not enough overall volume to piss off a stream AND maintain a plated (or refluxed) column. That this is more the issue of why it's not the same. You can't run a CM or boka that way either. And I'm not saying I'm right. Far from it. Just putting out there what my experience/thoughts are.

[flyingdutchman]

Hi Usge,
I never meant to imply that you thought 2 inch is bad or that it would not work. If that's the way it seemed then I apologize and let me make it clear to anyone reading this that nothing you wrote even hinted at that. My understanding from what you have consistently written is that you cant expect 2 inch to behave like 4 inch which I completely agree with.
I posted the results from the parent website for the calculations for (packed) 2 inch diameter columns to explain why I did not completely agree with a different statement that..

All advice regardless of plated column or not should point the newbie away from diameters less than 3 inch, yes 3 inch and above cost a lot but the pain in the butt that smaller diameters are aren't worth the saving of a $100 or so.

. Even here I am not saying he is wrong, his point about 3 inch out performing 2 inch i believe is dead on, but steering people away from 2 inch I don't completely agree with.

My sole reason for posting GM's evil twin was because I thought a contrasting instance where this flavor problem didnt seem to occur might help give a better understanding of why it does. It was definitely not intended to say anyone is wrong or right. I hope this helps???

[Usge]

No worries flyingd. Didn't take it that way. I agree as well that there is nothing inherently wrong with 2" columns. They are what they are. When I said "I'm not saying I'm right", ...I was not responding to anything save to say I'm just trying to get my own experience/throughts out there. Could well be wrong. If so, I'm glad to gain understanding/clarification on it.

[flyingdutchman]

Cool Its fun just talkin bout this stuff i didnt want to bum any one out.