Condenser Controlled Columns

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casper the Irish
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by casper the Irish »

kimbodious wrote: I don't even bother keeping feints from a CCVM run.
If I hear that sputtering sound from the top of the column I know I'll need a towel and umbrella unless I back off the heat pronoto! :lol:
What power does it need, presume you run a fifth below flooding?
I have been reading the Lagavullin scotch site where they strip to ale zero ( their low wines), then on the spirit run strip to zero again (their feints are added to low wines).
So last night after reflux hearts I siphoned the hot ale into my stovetop, stripped feints into low wines. I don't know yet what magic turns fusels into sweet ethanol, but I'll give it a go. Up till now I've been following NZChris by treating feints with bicarbonate and pot perm.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by willee »

casper the Irish wrote:
kimbodious wrote:
I have been reading the Lagavullin scotch site where they strip to ale zero ( their low wines), then on the spirit run strip to zero again (their feints are added to low wines).
So last night after reflux hearts I siphoned the hot ale into my stovetop, stripped feints into low wines. I don't know yet what magic turns fusels into sweet ethanol, but I'll give it a go. Up till now I've been following NZChris by treating feints with bicarbonate and pot perm.
It is my understanding that there is still a fair amount of Ethonol in there with the fusels and that is what you try to recover by re-distilling a batch of tails.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by Pikey »

casper the Irish wrote:
................ I don't know yet what magic turns fusels into sweet ethanol, but I'll give it a go. Up till now I've been following NZChris by treating feints with bicarbonate and pot perm.
It doesn't - but 12 years or so on oak and air sort of "mellows it" a bit !

The commercials over here are taxed on the sugar content as I understand it, so they run everything into the drink afaik.

We have the advantage over them there.

I'm reading "permanganate of potash " ? doesn't that turn everything purple ? :twisted:
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by der wo »

Pikey wrote:The commercials over here are taxed on the sugar content as I understand it, so they run everything into the drink afaik.
No they are taxed by the spirit they produce. There must be another reason for collecting all the ethanol with all the congeners.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by kimbodious »

I only use my CCVM for neutral so I have no interest in tails.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by Pikey »

der wo wrote:
Pikey wrote:The commercials over here are taxed on the sugar content as I understand it, so they run everything into the drink afaik.
No they are taxed by the spirit they produce. There must be another reason for collecting all the ethanol with all the congeners.
Well yes, but as I remember, they Calculate the spirit from the ingredients and the distiller has to account for any shortfall against the theoretical yield. Simply "pouring it down the drain" is not reconned to be a valid "wastage". [Again that's how I remember reading the regs a couple of years ago]
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by der wo »

There are two methods of taxing spirits:

- First one is with a spirit safe. The ethanol of the middle cut is measured. That's how all the big brands do it.
- The other is the calculated method. You say you have 500 liters of pear must fermenting and the customs will send you a bill by calculating the average sugar content of pears and the average middle cut you get from it. If you cut stricter or less strict is up to you. But this is the system for farmers, producing from own trees brandy besides producing mainly meat or milk for example.

At least it's the system in the EU.

We are off-topic...
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by casper the Irish »

kimbodious wrote:I only use my CCVM for neutral so I have no interest in tails.
You said that already. If you do simple moonshine sugar washes without adjuncts, if you don't use grain molasses or fruit brandies, then ditch all feints. But if you want whiskey rum or brandy on a CCVM, or even a real vodka, say a wheat mash, then tails are the secret to taste. For example, if you were to sample and bottle every half pint of hearts from your next run, tell me if they all taste the same? No they do not. With molasses on my CCVM I get from clean heads thru floral then vanilla to liquorice at the end of hearts that come from the tails. Those tails have great hidden pleasures trying to push thru. All mashes especially fruit base have amazing weak tails. Taste it on your next strip run. It's why you collect low wines, not just for tasteless ethanol, but for tasty feints. If you are still not hooked, then save fuel, stop your strip at 40%.... even better, don't strip at all, just reflux your sucrose beer for pure tasteless ethanol.

With CCVM how is it possible to extract more ethanol from feints. We got it all in the hearts. Maybe the recycling of feints is for potstillers, but I don't think so. Most rum distilleries use reflux stills yet tails and feints, even the Dunder get recycled. All potstill whiskies keep the feints with low wines. Great blended whiskies include 96% refluxed grain where feints are returned, all Bourbon, even those refluxed start with backset because an efficient still like CCVM needs to push extra flavour into the water that comes over with ethanol hearts.

I've read good threads here on treating feints based on the chemistry of low wine esters, acids and ethanol in equilibrium. Carbonate helps esters and acids convert back to ethanol. Pot perm strips out fusels rendering more but flavourless ethanol. A few crystals in pond water can make it safe to drink, useful when travelling abroad.

To those of us who can use CCVM to produce whiskies or rum, and a superior vodka or gin, this thread must embrace what good reflux columns might achieve that centuries of patent potstillers also strive for. CCVM may be excellent because it is simple. Can it also make improved product? Potstillers learned over centuries how to get the best from their copper worm technology too.

Why waste streams of heated water to strip hundreds of quarts of beer, then repeat the whole thing just to throw out more than half of the precious stuff just for the few quarts of hearts. The best whiskies in the world tell us they use heads tails and feints to improve the hearts. Can we try, too?
Last edited by casper the Irish on Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by BayouShine »

I have to agree with kimbodious here.

A packed column, regardless of it's configuration, just isn't the right tool for the job when you're trying to make a flavorful whiskey or rum. A plated flute or an old fashioned pot still would be better suited for the task. Why strip the alcohol so pure/clean, just to dilute it back down to barrel or drinking strength with flavorless water?

As far as feints runs go, I run all my potstill feints through the column. I do get a reasonable amount of alcohol out of it to be worth the extra effort. I can't say the same for re-running refulx feints. I don't see the point, but that's just me. If they don't clean up after a strip run and a run through the column, then they don't make it to my glass.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by kimbodious »

I make a spirit that tastes sort of like whisky (from wheatbran) in my pot still. I strip very deep in to the tails but not quite so deep on the spirit run (pot still again) All my low wines are stripped using my pot still but my CCVM packed reflux column is purely for making neutral (from Googe's kale recipe). If I want taste I use my pot still

I totally agree with BayouShine.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by der wo »

BayouShine wrote:A packed column, regardless of it's configuration, just isn't the right tool for the job when you're trying to make a flavorful whiskey or rum. A plated flute or an old fashioned pot still would be better suited for the task.
You can run many reflux stills with a packed column like a potstill. Or for example distill the fores like a reflux and the hearts like a potstill. And perhaps the tails with more or less reflux, that you can blend more of it to the hearts.
There are too many members -owning both- choosing to make whiskey with the reflux instead of the potstill.
But in this case, a CCVM cannot be run without reflux, so you don't have a potstill mode. Although I think, whiskey low wines distilled with a CCVM dialing as little reflux as possible wouldn't taste bad.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by snowman_fs »

der wo wrote:You can run many reflux stills with a packed column like a potstill. Or for example distill the fores like a reflux and the hearts like a potstill. And perhaps the tails with more or less reflux, that you can blend more of it to the hearts.
I have been naturally evolving to run my whiskey on my CCVM with this "method" and have no complaints yet. 100% Reflux while heating to compress fores and prevent takeoff until I'm ready, then start running by balancing the reflux through the heads. I have been pulling the RC earlier latley (above 80%). I would historically wait for the VM to shutoff before capping and running out through tails but my days are getting (much) shorter this way. I finish my last collection jar with the cap on the still and pump the rest through tails for feints in the next low wines. If I don't like that last jar (50/50) it goes to feints too. I run in 2 hrs this way.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by casper the Irish »

BayouShine wrote:A packed column just isn't the right tool to make a flavorful whiskey or rum. Why strip the alcohol so pure/clean, just to dilute it with flavorless water?
I run feints through the reflux column. I do get a reasonable amount of alcohol out of it.
There is no flavour in pure alcohol, so by definition potstill hearts are smeared with tails. Even if you cut early. Trick is to get enough of the right kinda head and tails to smear the pure hearts. That's up to the potstillers build and experience.
But
On a column You can layer up all the low wine constituent alcohols and flavours, collect them one by one..... then taste and blend. Just because they come off one layer at a time doesn't mean they get lost. Even if you take only the cleanest hearts at 95.6%ABV that includes near 5% smearing. That's not flavourless water. I take off at 90% so I get 10% flavoured smearing.

Many rums are actually refluxed. I look at how how Irish whiskey is made. Jameson's blend matured potstill barley with 96% refluxed corn. They collect low wines down below 1% and add all feints, even the foreshots.

More...
Condenser controlled columns do not yield 109% pure ethanol, there's between 6% and 10% flavoured water. Adding feints again and again to low wines will make that water carry over quite concentrated tastes.the delicious weak tails seem to infuse the hearts, too.

So on the spirit run I do not need to push into tails to get more flavour. Yes that's where the big taste is, more especially into WEAKER tails. Who can get those lovely weak tails into hearts? Romanian plum brandy actually collects them to dilute hearts with. Rum and scotch collect and keep adding them back to low wines. Flavour just builds up until there's enough to be concentrated in that 10% of water that our columns bring over with pure hearts.

As for adding pure water to dilute the reflux product: choose good water. You could use selected weak tails. Dilute to 63%. Aerate for a few days or a week. Soak charred oak pencils, keep it warm for a week. Just below ethanol BP. Try it and see how ready to drink it can be, does not need the charcoal filtering that JD gets.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by BayouShine »

casper the Irish wrote:
There is no flavour in pure alcohol, so by definition potstill hearts are smeared with tails. Even if you cut early. Trick is to get enough of the right kinda head and tails to smear the pure hearts. That's up to the potstillers build and experience.
But
On a column You can layer up all the low wine constituent alcohols and flavours, collect them one by one..... then taste and blend. Just because they come off one layer at a time doesn't mean they get lost. Even if you take only the cleanest hearts at 95.6%ABV that includes near 5% smearing. That's not flavourless water. I take off at 90% so I get 10% flavoured smearing.

Many rums are actually refluxed. I look at how how Irish whiskey is made. Jameson's blend matured potstill barley with 96% refluxed corn. They collect low wines down below 1% and add all feints, even the foreshots.

More...
Condenser controlled columns do not yield 109% pure ethanol, there's between 6% and 10% flavoured water. Adding feints again and again to low wines will make that water carry over quite concentrated tastes.the delicious weak tails seem to infuse the hearts, too.

So on the spirit run I do not need to push into tails to get more flavour. Yes that's where the big taste is, more especially into WEAKER tails. Who can get those lovely weak tails into hearts? Romanian plum brandy actually collects them to dilute hearts with. Rum and scotch collect and keep adding them back to low wines. Flavour just builds up until there's enough to be concentrated in that 10% of water that our columns bring over with pure hearts.

As for adding pure water to dilute the reflux product: choose good water. You could use selected weak tails. Dilute to 63%. Aerate for a few days or a week. Soak charred oak pencils, keep it warm for a week. Just below ethanol BP. Try it and see how ready to drink it can be, does not need the charcoal filtering that JD gets.
Seems like you have it all figured out then. This is where I'll make my exit.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by kimbodious »

I had a CM still that I'd also use on stripping runs. It used to take ages to rinse all the tails smell from the packing before I went to use it for spirit (neutral) runs. I did not trust that the first part of a spirit run with the CM was going to sufficiently "rinse" the packing before the hearts arrived.

With the CCVM I could probably leave the column equilibrated until the packing has been sufficiently rinsed but with the CCVM I would have to cap it off and run it as a pot still to be able to extract tails. I really don't see the point when I am only using the CCVM for making neutral spirit from low wines from Googe's kale recipe?
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by casper the Irish »

BayouShine wrote:
casper the Irish wrote:
On a column You can layer up all the low wine constituent alcohols and flavours, collect them one by one..... then taste and blend. Just because they come off one layer at a time doesn't mean they get lost. Even if you take only the cleanest hearts at 95.6%ABV that includes near 5% smearing. That's not flavourless water.
Many rums are actually refluxed. I look at how how Irish whiskey blend potstill barley with 96% refluxed corn.
More...
Condenser controlled columns do not yield 109% pure ethanol, there's between 6% and 10% flavoured water. Adding feints again and again to low wines will make that water carry over quite concentrated tastes.the delicious weak tails seem to infuse the hearts, too.
Seems like you have it all figured out then. This is where I'll make my exit.
Not so BS. Talking theory ain't the same as makin great sippin but I want to experiment with my new ccvm build.
My potstill and previous boka yielded robust flavours but was too impure, and too strong tasting.

I am going to try out a few changes which I hope will enhance the ccvm spirit run.
1. Strip all weak tails for as long as they taste or smell good.
2. Put copper mesh in the potstill lyne arm, not in the spirit run
3. Add low wines back into the stripping run. About 1:5
4. Run CCVM refluxed for hearts only. Remove the hot beer and strip into low wines

I will get clean hearts. I do want subtle, sweet and clean.
If there is not enough flavours, then I can go ahead with aging on oak while I work on a potstill batch to age then blend. But I hope by collecting and recycling tails and feints I will have enough taste coming across with my hearts.

I have 50gal each of corn, wheat and molasses beers near ready for stripping. I strip in 6gal batches on a stovetop to 0.5%abv because weak tails have a nice taste and smell.
When I do that my low wines are about 20% so I add a portion to each beer batch run as a 2nd distillation. I suppose that could be called high wines 35-40%
Obviously the wheat will be best suited to CCVM so that goes thru first of all. Let's see what happens then?
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by DAD300 »

der wo wrote:There are two methods of taxing spirits:

- First one is with a spirit safe. The ethanol of the middle cut is measured. That's how all the big brands do it.
- The other is the calculated method. You say you have 500 liters of pear must fermenting and the customs will send you a bill by calculating the average sugar content of pears and the average middle cut you get from it. If you cut stricter or less strict is up to you. But this is the system for farmers, producing from own trees brandy besides producing mainly meat or milk for example.

At least it's the system in the EU.
In the U.S. you pay taxes on the amount of 50% alcohol that goes out the door of the distillery.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by allanbradl »

Hello DAD300,
I have some 3" pipe laying around, a 3"tee, 3" 90, 2"x3" reducer to fit on top of a keg, and keg.
Really dig your design. I am starting electric build (4-5 kw), neutral spirit, and would like to ask your opinion on few things.

1) How high should I go with my column (below tee)
2) Is there a real need to move csst up and down during the run or I can build a shotgun style reflux condenser just above the tee?
3) Should I use the same 3" for product condenser?
4) Does the angle of the product condenser part matters? My 90 allows for a range.
5) In 3" lots of people do 7x1/2 inner tubes reflux shotguns, should I consider 3/8 for better cold air lock or stuff the 1/2 tubes with scrubber?
5) If you would build from scratch from my inventory what would be your design?
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by DAD300 »

2" x 3" reducer cap on keg (don't bother molesting the keg) 3" x 36" to the "T", 3"x3"x3" "T", 3" x 8" long above "T", use a 3" to 2" tapered reducer to a 2" x 24" dimroth product condenser (1/2" or 5/8" CCST inside), add a wade of scrubbie or a bit of cotton gauze at the bottom of the dimroth if needed.

That 2" to 3" cap between keg and column isn't just cheapest way, it acts as a plate to catch reflux.

Anything else is nice fluff if you have the money.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by casper the Irish »

DAD300 wrote:2" x 3" reducer cap on keg (don't bother molesting the keg)
That 2" to 3" cap between keg and column isn't just cheapest way, it acts as a plate to catch reflux.
I don't understand exactly what a cap between keg and column is.
My keg has a 1 3/4" rimmed neck. My SS dairy supplier only sells rimless cone shaped reducers. Matching any reducer to the keg rim has proved difficult.
My column (3" SS pipe) will slip nicely into a 3" x2" copper reducer, I don't weld it but can use ptfe tape if needed.
To fit this copper reducer to my keg I presumed to use a short length of 2" welded to the keg, perhaps

Do I need SPP to keep my column at 36" or will any packing work at this height. I have been exploring SS scrubbies, then SS mesh rolled tight, basalt pebbles of various sizes (18mm are better than 6mm or 12mm) and thinking of trying kids glass marbles.
If you flood the column, how much and how can I tell without a sight glass... is there a perfect noise or other indicators?

That short cap space from keg to reducer is useful. I recently discovered a great improvement to a rum run by inserting 12" of 2" copper there, stuffed with copper mesh. The 2" has a centring collar at the top. It appears to provide better control over my flooded section. Before, my full 3kw was surging and pushing liquid to the top of column packing, TO was below 90%. Now it seems to drain better, allows full heat and sits steady at 93.5%
I would love to understand why this has made a difference.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by DAD300 »

Reducing cap for keg to column
Reducing cap for keg to column
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These are the easiest route for unmodified keg to triclamp column.

I can get azeo from 36" of SS Scrubbies, just slower than SPP. You can hear and feel a flooded column. I've never had a sight glass.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by allanbradl »

Hello DAD300, Thanks a lot for your advise, I am contemplating a dry fit assembly with my copper fittings , except a clamp on the keg flange, maybe lab type parafilm to seal the joints once column is assembled for operation, highly reluctant to solder the joints. Maybe flour paste seal.
Any how, still puzzled by the function of csst coil in reflux part of the column. What is the reason to move that coil up/down?
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by casper the Irish »

Nice one. I will print and hawk for another local supplier
It's good to know Azeo can be achieved. My best was stubbornly 92% until adding a low centering collar similar to your reducing cap does now seem to +1.5%

Not sure if it's the centering collar 12" above the keg, or the added scrubbies in12" of 2" below the reducer at the bottom which did it

I have the chance of 4.5mm SPP for $10 per kilo. That's a fifteenth of my 3" column dia. Did you find (as I did with tiny pebble) that too small packing led to quick flooding at low power with poor results?

I have been hunting your previous posts to learn how to tune this rig to its best, even if you could explain how to calculate and assess packing performance. Any hyperlink reference is welcome. Last week I blew 50l of good corn wines because I had run water through the RC before the PC. Heck the simplest rig can be complicated when you don't know the why of what yer doin.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by DAD300 »

Movable Reflux Condenser II.png
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Moving the coil, blocks the take-off, just like opening and closing a valve. Vapor can't get by the coil.

I can achieve azeo with scrubbies, just slower.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by allanbradl »

Lets say I can modulate the take of, what is the process variable? What am I looking for? What is the indicator of equilibrium?
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by Wildcatdistiller »

Hey Dad300, I have a question about your product condenser. Should it be coiled like the reflux condenser or just twisted?
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by musclewarrior »

Dad300 - I'm curious to know if having a larger, lower diameter pipe in the column will affect how the still runs vs a single size diameter column. Would it cause flooding easier etc?

I.e: If I have a 4" take off to a 4" x 600mm packed section to a 3" x 600mm packed section before the T joint.

Obviously the downside is the requirement for more packing.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by DAD300 »

Wildcat, it depends on the CSST and PC tube you have at hand. The twistde version allows, say 5/8" CSST in a 2" PC.

musclewarrior, you might have trouble with a 4" finding a good packing. But the change from 4" to 3" will cause a change in vapor speed. The power needed by the 4" will cause too high a vapor speed in the 3". This may make your still very hard to run.
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Re: Condenser Controlled Columns

Post by napalm »

Hello all,
I have decided to build a 2" diameter CCVM as my first still as per this thread and other information on this great forum.
This is my first attempt at building a still, although I have been brewing for around six years.
I do have three questions that I could not find definitive answers on:
1. Material for the build. Copper or stainless? The pictures in this thread show DAD's still as completely made out of stainless.
Reading through the site, some threads advocate that copper is better, only stainless in the product condenser side etc. etc?
What is the current concensus, ignoring the ease of working with the material and cost?
2. What is the column height for potstill mode using the same boiler as for this reflux still. I have read that a column as short as 8" would suffice??
3. Would it work if the vertical "leg" of the "Tee" at the top of the column is positioned horisontally with the reflux condenser entering from the side and the takeoff is to
the other side? I ask this because of height restrictions!
Thank you in advance.
Nathan.
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