Copper in the decending path

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Copper in the decending path

Post by DAD300 »

Corene1 posted a great article a couple of weeks ago, and referenced an article from Whiskey Science.

This got me started reading the rest of Whiskey Science and I got to the following...Saturday, October 18, 2014
Copper

http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

"Ethyl carbamate (EC, urethane) was a hot topic in the 1980s, as it was found to be carcinogenic and to increase during maturation phase of spirits. At the time various whiskies, especially grain or bourbon whiskies from stainless steel column stills were producing spirits with way too much EC and the concentrations seemed only to increase during maturation. It was found that copper in the ascending phase on still decreased EC dramatically and copper was (re)introduced into column stills. Adversely copper salts in the new make does catalyses the EC formation during the maturation, so most grain distillers use only stainless steel in the condensers to diminish the amount of copper residues in the new make. "

Now, I also relate this to the idea that every once in a while someone produces Blue Distillate. The Blue has to come from copper sulphate in the descending path, vapor or liquid probably doesn't matter... but copper tubed liebigs...would matter. Those, like me, that believe a still cleans its self, would rarely bother to clean the descending path before a new run. I think we also live with the assumption that high ABV Ethanol and Copper do not react...this article says otherwise.

At the very least...clean the "descending" copper path just as you would the boiler before a run.

Best, think copper in ascending and Stainless in descending.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

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There is always something trying to kill us! So unfair!
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by still_stirrin »

Very interesting and thought provoking DAD. Definitely worth persuing. Thanks.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by shadylane »

The most poisonous thing that comes from my still is ethanol.
And the most carcinogenic is the chard wood used to age the ethanol.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by Bagasso »

DAD300 wrote:Best, think copper in ascending and Stainless in descending.
Wine guys talk about the penny test. Place a copper coin in a wine of glass and give it a couple of swirls then give it a sniff. If their testing method is correct, copper doesn't need any heat to take care of things, so I think that a copper scrubbie in a funnel or in a a racking cane should take care of things and just to be sure a couple copper bits in the boiler seems like a good idea.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by Hound Dog »

A while back Odin really got the pot boiling with the copper subject in this post, http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=42610
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by Hound Dog »

DAD300 wrote: At the very least...clean the "descending" copper path just as you would the boiler before a run.
DAD, I typically take 1/2 quart and toss it into my fores bucket at the start of a run and collect a quart or two of heads cuts before I hit my good hearts. Would this not be enough to clean out the LM head and liebig?
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by thecroweater »

been meaning to start a thread on this for some time Dad glad you did, I know the ss and glass guys won't like to hear it but inert material is not what stills need copper is, it is why ALL major stainless stills have a substantial copper catylist above the RC and even most of the copper columns. Take a look at Holstein or any of the others, this is not just about sulphides as is erroneously bandied about. its alright to say what the hell ethanol is bad for you but that is a complete cop out if that's the case why not make a lead still. The fact is a still that is completely inert is producing a potentially dangerous product. It is a fairly serious safety issue and putting your head in the sand does nothing to help, I'm happy to provide link after link after link about the production and health risks of ethyl carbamate. I have in the past made mention of it concerning the use of urea as a nutrient but haven't as yet expanded on the greatly increased risk associated with using an inadequate amount of copper in the vapour path
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by DAD300 »

Some are missing the point here. Odin's post was about copper as the poison.

This article says copper in the boiler and column is beneficial (ascending/vapor going up). But copper in the takeoff and product condenser (liquid going down) adds a carcinogenic back to clean distillate. Ethyl Carbamate...caused by the high ABV ethanol reacting with copper.

Now, if the Big Commercial guys (the same people that feed the masses fores) thought this was bad enough to take action, I'm concerned.

Hound Dog...good call on Odin's article. I remember it now. But the Science Whiskey article was another wake up.

My own stills are all Stainless. I do introduce a wad of copper mesh in the top of my column, near but below the takeoff.

I put it on top to make it easier to clean. I may go back to the bottom. I had thought of putting a "T" between keg and column and using the "T" to add and remove the copper.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by thecroweater »

Well it is my understanding that an adequate amount of copper in the vapour path above the RC will prevent this deadly compound from forming therefore there should not be any in the descending path :thumbup:
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by Hound Dog »

Overall, I agree with what DAD300 is saying and mostly with what Odin brought up before. If I had the ability to TIG weld I would build my rig out of stainless and use either a copper bubble ball or copper at the base of my packing. Alas, I don't have that skill but I can solder copper. So my rig is all copper. Yes, as Odin describes, it would be best to store parts in alcohol to prevent any corrosion of the copper from building up. Do i ? No. Probably should do this with at least the liebig and piping but I never take it apart and just run it. Shame on me for being lazy. :|
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Re: Copper in the decending path

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Are you guys serious Odin's arguments in that thread were seriously flawed and the only reason I didn't comment at the time is a long story but I was fighting a pitched battle on the same rubbish elsewhere. Looks to me I am better off bowing out of discussion here and start my own thread when I get the time, maybe "Jack the dancers favourite stainless still" :lol:
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by DAD300 »

rockchucker, perfect...that is the point. This isn't the same contaminant as Odin brought up and It can be contained on the ascending side.

Now obviously none of us have dropped over from it in an all copper still/leibig. But none of us have dropped from using a plastic funnel either. Doesn't mean either is good for us.

File it away and take notice...if nothing else.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by emptyglass »

I'm a bit over the copper V's Stainless debate. To me its a no brainer copper is the better choice of materials. Stainless works quite well where the wash is still liquid, but as a vapour it needs to pass through copper.

I have read articles where stainless on the downhill side may be better, but this was in reference to stone fruit based products, where there may be cyanide products present from distilling on the fruit with the pits. Seeing that this is a small segment of the hobby, I think its null and void.

Some that are in the stainless still supply market may tell a different story, but for me, I ask why all the big boys use copper. Remembering that a 100 year old bourbon was probably made in a copper still, not a stainless one sort of adds to the point.

And theres probably more poison in a big mac than what you'd get from drinking hooch from a copper still with a copper final condenser.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by DAD300 »

Houndog...cleaning your copper product condenser to remove the corrosion will help. But the Ethyl Carbamate comes as ethanol is run over clean or dirty copper. Again this is only on the descending path.

Another article... http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S01 ... ci_arttext" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

"Moreover, copper is an essential element in the human diet; however intake large quantities can be toxic. For example, copper accumulation in the liver can leading to the Wilson's disease, which leads to neurological and psychiatric disturbs,12 and it is well known that adverse effect of copper is the catalytic formation of ethyl carbamate, a potentially carcinogenic substance, being the one main technical obstacles for the exportation of the Brazilian sugar-cane spirits.13 In some spirituous beverages made by producers in the Brazil, generally homemade or "artisanal cachaças", the copper levels found may be above the maximum allowed limit and frequently double distillation is often required to reduce this element content.14 An usual and practice procedure that can be employed to reduce the copper level in the cachaça is a simple washing of condenser walls with a solution containing water and lemon juice or a solution of citric acid, in the concentration of 5% v/v lemon juice:water.15 Unfortunately, most of producers, mainly the small manufacturers do not clean condenser walls, and, in several samples a copper concentration of 20 mg L-1 was found."
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by Swashbuckler »

So I have a stainless rig but I have a copper condenser, is that enough copper in the ascending vapor path
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by RandyMarshCT »

Might be time for me to put a stainless PC on my flute.

Dad, do you think using copper mesh for the bottom 1/4 of packing on a full stainless rig (like your ccvm) could be an easy solution? Or maybe a couple inches of 1/4" copper tubing cut into 1/4" long pieces, like raschig rings?
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by thecroweater »

Wilson disease is a rare genetic disorder that results in the accumulation of copper in the body and NOT the result of exposure of copper. Ethyl Carbamate should NOT be in the descending path if copper is used for the ascending path so the point made for stainless in the descending path regarding the removal of E Carbamate is moot, besides copper doesn't absorb urethane, it stops the compound from forming all together :thumbup:
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Copper in the decending path

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Edit: non-business related image in poor humor removed


Who knew?
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by thecroweater »

Kegg-jam what is the point you are making with that spurious post
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by RandyMarshCT »

Swashbuckler wrote:So I have a stainless rig but I have a copper condenser, is that enough copper in the ascending vapor path
Is it a copper reflux condenser, or a product condenser? Seemingly it would help if it were a reflux condenser, but not if it's a PC.
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Copper in the decending path

Post by Kegg_jam »

Sorry, must have done something stupid again.

Just trying to lighten the mood in jest.

The jest being that consuming alcohol is apparently bad enough for us.

I can delete the post if it is out of line.

Edited again: cause I had to look 'spurious' up.

Sorry, not 'intended to deceive' or 'born out of wedlock'. 'plausible but false' mmm ...maybe.

I did learn something today so all is not lost.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by Swashbuckler »

RandyMarshCT wrote:
Swashbuckler wrote:So I have a stainless rig but I have a copper condenser, is that enough copper in the ascending vapor path
Is it a copper reflux condenser, or a product condenser? Seemingly it would help if it were a reflux condenser, but not if it's a PC.
Late response, it's a reflux condenser
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by RandyMarshCT »

You should be good then. If you're concerned, add a little bit of copper mesh in the bottom of your column.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by thatguy1313 »

I've also seen studies that indicate copper in the boiler (boiling chips) will get you better sulfide removal than copper in the vapor path alone. I'm thinkin about chopping up my old worm condenser and putting the pieces in the boiler. I've considered doing a SS PC. Might happen, might not. I'm not overly concerned with carcinogens in my drink.
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by thecroweater »

adequate copper in the vapour path and most of those carcinogenic compounds never formed is more the point, if anything is still there in the descending path an inert material will not fix it continual copper might/will but there should be enough copper in the acceding path to make sure this is not an issue.
This is my issue with excessive use of inert materials, i think this direction with limited to no copper in distillation is not a way forward but that's just my 2 cents
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by Odin »

DAD300 wrote:Corene1 posted a great article a couple of weeks ago, and referenced an article from Whiskey Science.

This got me started reading the rest of Whiskey Science and I got to the following...Saturday, October 18, 2014
Copper

http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

"Ethyl carbamate (EC, urethane) was a hot topic in the 1980s, as it was found to be carcinogenic and to increase during maturation phase of spirits. At the time various whiskies, especially grain or bourbon whiskies from stainless steel column stills were producing spirits with way too much EC and the concentrations seemed only to increase during maturation. It was found that copper in the ascending phase on still decreased EC dramatically and copper was (re)introduced into column stills. Adversely copper salts in the new make does catalyses the EC formation during the maturation, so most grain distillers use only stainless steel in the condensers to diminish the amount of copper residues in the new make. "

Now, I also relate this to the idea that every once in a while someone produces Blue Distillate. The Blue has to come from copper sulphate in the descending path, vapor or liquid probably doesn't matter... but copper tubed liebigs...would matter. Those, like me, that believe a still cleans its self, would rarely bother to clean the descending path before a new run. I think we also live with the assumption that high ABV Ethanol and Copper do not react...this article says otherwise.

At the very least...clean the "descending" copper path just as you would the boiler before a run.

Best, think copper in ascending and Stainless in descending.
Excellent advice, DAD! Great thread! Glad it's not just me who brought it up. Copper rusts and if we think the act of distilling cleans it out, yes, it does. The more important Q is: where does the rusty stuff go? Right, into your drink.

This is exactly the reason why I started my provocative thread on copper a while back.

But it is not just about copper in the descending path. There's a bit more to it: copper bits in the ascending path will also come over, when the vapour speed is high enough ... In other words, the best advice is to use copper, for its great catalystic capabilities, as low as possible in the column.

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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by Odin »

thatguy1313 wrote:I've also seen studies that indicate copper in the boiler (boiling chips) will get you better sulfide removal than copper in the vapor path alone. I'm thinkin about chopping up my old worm condenser and putting the pieces in the boiler. I've considered doing a SS PC. Might happen, might not. I'm not overly concerned with carcinogens in my drink.
Research from Edinburgh University shows that copper works best as a cleaning agent ... depending on what run you do.

On a strip run, it should be in the vapour path. In a finishing run it performs at its best, fighting of sulfurs, when it is in the boiler. I translate this to a packed or plated column as follows: put copper low in the column, so rising gasses from the pot (distillation round 1) get in contact with it, and where falling reflux liquids (distillation 2) can come in contact with it as well. Best of both worlds.

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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by thecroweater »

Odin wrote
Excellent advice, DAD! Great thread! Glad it's not just me who brought it up. Copper rusts and if we think the act of distilling cleans it out, yes, it does. The more important Q is: where does the rusty stuff go? Right, into your drink.
Yeah ok might want to look at what you are drinking. :lol:
Thing is the most solvent of compounds are the first to come out in what we refer to as fore shots and it is well understood that these higher alcohols should not be drank or even re-ran. Next is early heads and if you got cooper oxides still coming through them running a charge of say a beer keg, milk can what ever you got to ask just how crapped up was my still and why. In the very unlikely circumstance that certain oxides and sulphates are still present in the first bit of your early heads that perhaps you are thinking of re-running do you feel that such oxides and sulphates as may be present will in any way affect upon a subsequent run product, I myself feel it wont
either way any trace element presence of copper oxide that should make it through to hearts would I feel be far less of a concern than the possibility of potentially harmful compounds such as ethyl carbamate being exponentially formed though out the run as temperatures begin to increase as I understand is the nature of urethane when run in an inert environment. As you have very correctly pointed out in your post copper circumvents this reaction between urea nitrate and ethyl alcohol and an inert environment will allow the compound to form exponentially as these two actuates are present in pretty much every ferment, not just in fruit or where urea has been added as some have stated (Adding urea will increase the risk a lot of cause) . I feel that an adequate amount of copper in the vapour path in very important indeed but how much copper is adequate would need to be determined by testing product from a composite copper/whatever still until what ever is deemed a safe level is reached.
Worth a thought surely :thumbup:
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Re: Copper in the decending path

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I have a feeling the owners of these stills may object a little when they are told that they should replace all the descending copper parts on their stills.
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