Automate distilling process

Distillation methods and improvements.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Pelson
Novice
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:10 pm

Automate distilling process

Post by Pelson »

Hi guys,

So I have a VM still that I've build quite some time ago.
If I run it really (like, really) slow, I'm able to get around 94% out of it from a 12-20% wash, with the heat really low, and the flow of product suuuuuuperslow.

When doing this I usually left the still overnight, with obvious problems occurring (cooling getting too hot, gas heater dying, etc etc.)

So what I want to do now is automatize the whole thing. I'm sure some of you have heard of Arduino boards.
My general idea is to link some thermistors or thermocouples to my still together with some other geeky micro-electronics, write a program for the whole thing so that eventually I can just - foolproof - let the damn thing run overnight without loosing much sleep over it (pun intended).

SO... two questions:

1. Has anybody here done that before?
2. Does anybody know if, when I use electrical heating elements controlled with a relay, whether or not PWM (pulse width modulation) gives some form of frequency disturbance to the net? I've read something about not using dimmers on electrical heating elements but I don't really know how those work.

Any help, tips or comments are welcome!
Thanks
cob
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: little puffs of dust where my feet used to be

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by cob »

that is not a procedure that you will find recommended here.

there are several threads on this subject and the consensus is

almost unanimous, don't leave your still for any reason period.

edit; you been here a long time you should read more.
be water my friend
Pelson
Novice
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:10 pm

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Pelson »

My apologies. Just researched it more with the search engine.
I had just never come across it I guess.

I'll find what I need and read more!
User avatar
Still Life
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:24 pm
Location: Great State Of Missouri

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Still Life »

Arduino boards and I'm sure Raspberry Pi's have been utilized.

The problem with support on this idea is that you will leave the still operating on it's own without human intervention.
Seeing as you've been a member so long, I'm surprised the unsafe aspect of walking away from an active still was even admitted.

Stills behave. Stills misbehave. Will that Arduino tell you if a fire starts or even your collection vessel overflows?
What if you burn your house down or hurt or kill someone. You will not be on the positive side of litigation or recompensense.

Automation is not taken lightly here at HD. We deal with an illegal activity --most of us-- and you want to delve darker into it.
I'm asking you to please dump the idea, and PLEASE not leave your still unattended again.

Rant done.
Pelson
Novice
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:10 pm

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Pelson »

I've done more stupid stuff to set my house on fire as a kid but you are correct...
It is not the way of the distiller.
Thanks for pointing it out and again, my apologies for trying to be "lazy" (guess that's how they train us as scientists)

It just seemed like a cool project tho.
Guess if I want more product faster I'll just have to dig out the 3inch flute plans again.
(and make an arduino program for heating the garage I'm working in)


(ps: I've only left my still alone once, and things went as positively wrong as they could, so haven't done that ever since...)


Edit: You can close this topic
User avatar
Still Life
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:24 pm
Location: Great State Of Missouri

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Still Life »

I'm very happy you asked.
Good luck to you. Good health. Good stilling.
speedfreaksteve
Swill Maker
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by speedfreaksteve »

I think we can discuss this without an "all or none" type attitude though. I've been playing around with Raspberry Pi's for a little while and I'm thinking about all the extra safety features I could add to my process. Like auto-shutoff the propane if x or y happens. The Raspberry Pi could certainly determine a few things going wrong before a person would possibly preventing your house burning down, puking, or things pressurizing.

To me this is making things safer. I just don't think we should automatically paint everyone talking about automation with the same brush like they're trying to be "lazy" and treat their still like it's a microwave.
I'm not ever leaving my still unattended. I'm foolish, but not that foolish.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
User avatar
Still Life
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:24 pm
Location: Great State Of Missouri

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Still Life »

Any tools supplemental to the art are certainly beneficial, speedfreaksteve.
I was simply addressing his admitted absentee use.

God love technology.
User avatar
Oldvine Zin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2412
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:16 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Oldvine Zin »

speedfreaksteve wrote: I'm not ever leaving my still unattended. I'm foolish, but not that foolish.
So true - during my last run I started to smell a burning plastic smell, looked over to the 50 amp plug to see stalactites forming from the plug. Probably a bad connection inside - no fire and a quick run to the store fixed it, not sure if a computer based monitor would would have been better.

OVZ
User avatar
Bushman
Admin
Posts: 17975
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Bushman »

When I ran my 2" VM with a birdwatchers recipe at 10-11 gallon wash my typical run would go 12-17 hours so I understand the why. I also ran a propane setup at the time which was also less safe. I new if I was going to continue I would have to make some changes in how I operated. To make changes and remain safe and enjoy what I was doing I did the following.
1. Built a 4" CM, runs depending on stripping or spirit go from 3-5 hours.
a) Also gave me more flexibility in the products I produce.
b) Went electric which was cheaper and safer.
2. Boosted my wifi reception to reach my outbuilding so I can do things/check things next to my still without leaving the area.
3. Came up with small projects to work on that can be done while distilling but not take me away from checking the still out at anytime during operation.
4. With my cell phone handy if I get hungry my wife is good about bringing me some food so I don't leave my operation. Just reading about the stories of explosions at distilleries because the still was left unattended is enough to keep me vigilant.

I also agree that adding safety features is always a great idea and posting these additions is how others get ideas to improve operations.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Pikey »

So what happens if you get a power "outage" when you are fast asleep ? Or your computer packs up ?
User avatar
bitter
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1999
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:51 pm
Location: Great White North

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by bitter »

Think of the istill. Its now about leaving things its about repeat-ability.. and different programs for different types of runs (Pot vs reflux etc). I think automation has a roll in HD but you still need to keep safety in mind.

For cuts automation not really going to help you... unless you do the exact same run all the time.. but there are so many variables this will never be perfect... I do think its good for data logging. Will let you know whats going on from wash to wash and run to run.. keep records and then see what runs you like the best then try to repeat.

I personally don't leave my setup when its running.. Have had to shut down a few times... as a result of this... (emergency bathroom break) I have seriously thought about computer control my power input and keep record of liquid temp, boiler temp and top the column temp... could help me tweak my process. Also be nice to have a flow meter to help set consistent rates for a given run.

B
Pelson
Novice
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:10 pm

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Pelson »

To talk about safety and control,
you could basically install alcohol and propane sensors in the room, above your still. As soon as ambient levels reach a certain threshold alarms could go off or there could be an automatic shutdown... How do you feel about that?

I do understand it's foolish to leave everything unattended, and I do have wifi and stuff in the garage (Bushman's idea of keeping yourself occupied).
I like engineering but do realize that big industrial plants are also never left unattended , so that's probably something I should copy from the industry as well then.

I guess the point is, like speedfreaksteve said, to let the still do more on its own, but not to leave it alone (I know, not really my original point, but I dropped that idea). I think regardless it'd be cool to have your still connected to your laptop spewing temperature data at you...

I guess some people will be opposed to this as it's not all done manually and the whole process is not as genuine, but think of the options.
You could hook up some pumps and solenoid valves and basically run your still with your computer. Control temperature and heating, control take-off, control emptying and cleaning. It's a huge project, but I think it'd be cool.

(and yes, in the unlikely event of your computer crashing, you'd still be sitting right next to it to do a manual "override")
User avatar
Bushman
Admin
Posts: 17975
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Bushman »

Nobody is opposed to automation as bitters example explains but if it is used to not monitor the still then we on HD feel we have a safety problem.
Just sayin!
speedfreaksteve
Swill Maker
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by speedfreaksteve »

Pikey wrote:So what happens if you get a power "outage" when you are fast asleep ? Or your computer packs up ?
I don't think anyone is advocating running things unattended. For safety, electric is safer either way.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Pikey »

Pelson wrote:To talk about safety and control,
you could basically install alcohol and propane sensors in the room, above your still. As soon as ambient levels reach a certain threshold alarms could go off or there could be an automatic shutdown... How do you feel about that?
I think propane is heavier than air ?
speedfreaksteve
Swill Maker
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by speedfreaksteve »

bitter wrote:Think of the istill. Its now about leaving things its about repeat-ability.. and different programs for different types of runs (Pot vs reflux etc). I think automation has a roll in HD but you still need to keep safety in mind.
B
Repeatability is a great strategy in this hobby, and that includes everything, mashing, fermenting, and running the still, although this is hard to achieve with most people's desires to always try something new.

I have been playing with adding a camera setup so that I can monitor my thermometer and watch my still during heatup time on my phone without actually standing right beside it. I like to do some outside chores while running my still, especially while waiting for it to get up to temp. I am experimenting with temp sensors as well, but that's a longer term project as it can get pretty complex I've found.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
speedfreaksteve
Swill Maker
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by speedfreaksteve »

Pikey wrote:
Pelson wrote:To talk about safety and control,
you could basically install alcohol and propane sensors in the room, above your still. As soon as ambient levels reach a certain threshold alarms could go off or there could be an automatic shutdown... How do you feel about that?
I think propane is heavier than air ?
There are people currently with brewing setups that have sensors to auto shutoff the propane if the burner goes out, basically a heat sensor and a propane fitting solenoid switch. It's not very difficult even to do.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
User avatar
MichiganCornhusker
retired
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:24 am

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

speedfreaksteve wrote:I'm not ever leaving my still unattended. I'm foolish, but not that foolish.
speedfreaksteve wrote: I like to do some outside chores while running my still...
This is the heart of the problem with these automation threads.
One moment it's all about watching the automated still run itself while attending it the whole time (wink wink), but then also wanting to be able to go do something else because you've cobbled some kind of warning device to the still.

If your other hobby is automating things, great, go for it, automate your still to your hearts content.
Just don't then pretend that you can go mow the grass because you have it live broadcasting to the phone in your pocket.
Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me...
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Pikey »

speedfreaksteve wrote:
Pikey wrote:
Pelson wrote:To talk about safety and control,
you could basically install alcohol and propane sensors in the room, above your still. As soon as ambient levels reach a certain threshold alarms could go off or there could be an automatic shutdown... How do you feel about that?
I think propane is heavier than air ?
There are people currently with brewing setups that have sensors to auto shutoff the propane if the burner goes out, basically a heat sensor and a propane fitting solenoid switch. It's not very difficult even to do.
I never said it was hard to do - But the OP specifically said ABOVE the still - BANG !

Some automation may well be great, but when we just stick sensors in assuming we have made the equipment Safe, without actually understanding what we are doing - that can be a scary path, especially if there are others living in the place !
speedfreaksteve
Swill Maker
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by speedfreaksteve »

MichiganCornhusker wrote:[
This is the heart of the problem with these automation threads.
One moment it's all about watching the automated still run itself while attending it the whole time (wink wink), but then also wanting to be able to go do something else because you've cobbled some kind of warning device to the still.

If your other hobby is automating things, great, go for it, automate your still to your hearts content.
Just don't then pretend that you can go mow the grass because you have it live broadcasting to the phone in your pocket.
I'm glad that we at least can have a discussion about it, but you're right we shouldn't be using any sort of warning device as an excuse to leave things unattended, that potentially makes it a more dangerous situation.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Kareltje »

It is nice that things at least can be discussed.

I once sold a glass still to someone who wanted to automate it in the early 80's of the past century.
I wonder how you could automate a process with gliding parameters. Would like to see some solutions.

To leave the still alone for me is no problem: I have only one uncontrollable part, namely the influx of natural gas from the national grid to my burner. So, when started and properly regulated, my still is as safe as a pan of simmering stew.

The gassupply can stop and then start again: that would fill my kitchen with gas. But it has never happened in this country, as far as I know.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Pikey »

Your gas supply can stop. We had a case in Leicester a good many years ago. However, if it does, it will NOT be restarted - Purge and relight teams at the vvery least would have to visit and reworkk every home prior to letting the gas back on ! :shock:

What makes you thingk your water supply is indestructible ?
MDH
Distiller
Posts: 1001
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:33 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by MDH »

I suppose one could automate a distilling process with established recipes, but personally, I prefer the olfactory senses, which you might have trouble automating with by any practical means :P
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Pikey »

MDH wrote:I suppose one could automate a distilling process with established recipes, but personally, I prefer the olfactory senses, which you might have trouble automating with by any practical means :P
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Black- ... lack+swans

Good read 8)
WIski
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 726
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:39 pm

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by WIski »

Pikey Wrote;
What makes you think your water supply is indestructible ?
So true. :thumbup:

Or seals, or hoses, or pumps, or glass, or fittings, or circuit boards, or thermocouples, or PID's, or or or,,,,,,,,, so many things can fail.
speedfreaksteve
Swill Maker
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by speedfreaksteve »

I'll be adding this to my list. I listen to audio books like this all the time when I'm driving. Thanks for sharing.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
User avatar
AK49ER
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:15 pm
Location: Down a 200 mile gravel road last homestead on the left

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by AK49ER »

Nope don't care what new tech come up , have to be there tending , tweaking , looking , tasting, paying attention to the girl. She needs to be looked at and tweaked that's the fun of it right ? Well I think it is anyhow ...
AK49er
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13036
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by NZChris »

AK49ER wrote:Nope don't care what new tech come up , have to be there tending , tweaking , looking , tasting, paying attention to the girl. She needs to be looked at and tweaked that's the fun of it right ? Well I think it is anyhow ...
Most of my stills can be run without any tweaking, so it would be easy to automate shut downs for completion and for faults that you might not notice if you are nodding off in front of the still, a kid has skinned their knees, Ma In Law has picked a fight, you've dropped dead from a heart attack, whatever.
User avatar
skow69
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Cascadia

Re: Automate distilling process

Post by skow69 »

Kareltje wrote:To leave the still alone for me is no problem: I have only one uncontrollable part, namely the influx of natural gas from the national grid to my burner. So, when started and properly regulated, my still is as safe as a pan of simmering stew.
That sounds a lot like what the guy said when he set the brakes on that train at Lac Magantic. Problem is, it's not that "only one uncontrollable part" that you are aware of that will screw you. It's the perfect storm of issues that you underestimated, worn parts, acts of god, and that one in a million chance of everything lining up just right or happening at the same instant. That is what will burn your whole downtown business district to the ground. It's always a combination of things, some impossible to anticipate, that make you look back later and say, "Holy shit, what were the odds of THAT happening?"
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
Post Reply