Automate distilling process
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Automate distilling process
Hi guys,
So I have a VM still that I've build quite some time ago.
If I run it really (like, really) slow, I'm able to get around 94% out of it from a 12-20% wash, with the heat really low, and the flow of product suuuuuuperslow.
When doing this I usually left the still overnight, with obvious problems occurring (cooling getting too hot, gas heater dying, etc etc.)
So what I want to do now is automatize the whole thing. I'm sure some of you have heard of Arduino boards.
My general idea is to link some thermistors or thermocouples to my still together with some other geeky micro-electronics, write a program for the whole thing so that eventually I can just - foolproof - let the damn thing run overnight without loosing much sleep over it (pun intended).
SO... two questions:
1. Has anybody here done that before?
2. Does anybody know if, when I use electrical heating elements controlled with a relay, whether or not PWM (pulse width modulation) gives some form of frequency disturbance to the net? I've read something about not using dimmers on electrical heating elements but I don't really know how those work.
Any help, tips or comments are welcome!
Thanks
So I have a VM still that I've build quite some time ago.
If I run it really (like, really) slow, I'm able to get around 94% out of it from a 12-20% wash, with the heat really low, and the flow of product suuuuuuperslow.
When doing this I usually left the still overnight, with obvious problems occurring (cooling getting too hot, gas heater dying, etc etc.)
So what I want to do now is automatize the whole thing. I'm sure some of you have heard of Arduino boards.
My general idea is to link some thermistors or thermocouples to my still together with some other geeky micro-electronics, write a program for the whole thing so that eventually I can just - foolproof - let the damn thing run overnight without loosing much sleep over it (pun intended).
SO... two questions:
1. Has anybody here done that before?
2. Does anybody know if, when I use electrical heating elements controlled with a relay, whether or not PWM (pulse width modulation) gives some form of frequency disturbance to the net? I've read something about not using dimmers on electrical heating elements but I don't really know how those work.
Any help, tips or comments are welcome!
Thanks
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- Master of Distillation
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Re: Automate distilling process
that is not a procedure that you will find recommended here.
there are several threads on this subject and the consensus is
almost unanimous, don't leave your still for any reason period.
edit; you been here a long time you should read more.
there are several threads on this subject and the consensus is
almost unanimous, don't leave your still for any reason period.
edit; you been here a long time you should read more.
be water my friend
Re: Automate distilling process
My apologies. Just researched it more with the search engine.
I had just never come across it I guess.
I'll find what I need and read more!
I had just never come across it I guess.
I'll find what I need and read more!
- Still Life
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Re: Automate distilling process
Arduino boards and I'm sure Raspberry Pi's have been utilized.
The problem with support on this idea is that you will leave the still operating on it's own without human intervention.
Seeing as you've been a member so long, I'm surprised the unsafe aspect of walking away from an active still was even admitted.
Stills behave. Stills misbehave. Will that Arduino tell you if a fire starts or even your collection vessel overflows?
What if you burn your house down or hurt or kill someone. You will not be on the positive side of litigation or recompensense.
Automation is not taken lightly here at HD. We deal with an illegal activity --most of us-- and you want to delve darker into it.
I'm asking you to please dump the idea, and PLEASE not leave your still unattended again.
Rant done.
The problem with support on this idea is that you will leave the still operating on it's own without human intervention.
Seeing as you've been a member so long, I'm surprised the unsafe aspect of walking away from an active still was even admitted.
Stills behave. Stills misbehave. Will that Arduino tell you if a fire starts or even your collection vessel overflows?
What if you burn your house down or hurt or kill someone. You will not be on the positive side of litigation or recompensense.
Automation is not taken lightly here at HD. We deal with an illegal activity --most of us-- and you want to delve darker into it.
I'm asking you to please dump the idea, and PLEASE not leave your still unattended again.
Rant done.
Re: Automate distilling process
I've done more stupid stuff to set my house on fire as a kid but you are correct...
It is not the way of the distiller.
Thanks for pointing it out and again, my apologies for trying to be "lazy" (guess that's how they train us as scientists)
It just seemed like a cool project tho.
Guess if I want more product faster I'll just have to dig out the 3inch flute plans again.
(and make an arduino program for heating the garage I'm working in)
(ps: I've only left my still alone once, and things went as positively wrong as they could, so haven't done that ever since...)
Edit: You can close this topic
It is not the way of the distiller.
Thanks for pointing it out and again, my apologies for trying to be "lazy" (guess that's how they train us as scientists)
It just seemed like a cool project tho.
Guess if I want more product faster I'll just have to dig out the 3inch flute plans again.
(and make an arduino program for heating the garage I'm working in)
(ps: I've only left my still alone once, and things went as positively wrong as they could, so haven't done that ever since...)
Edit: You can close this topic
- Still Life
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Re: Automate distilling process
I'm very happy you asked.
Good luck to you. Good health. Good stilling.
Good luck to you. Good health. Good stilling.
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- Swill Maker
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Re: Automate distilling process
I think we can discuss this without an "all or none" type attitude though. I've been playing around with Raspberry Pi's for a little while and I'm thinking about all the extra safety features I could add to my process. Like auto-shutoff the propane if x or y happens. The Raspberry Pi could certainly determine a few things going wrong before a person would possibly preventing your house burning down, puking, or things pressurizing.
To me this is making things safer. I just don't think we should automatically paint everyone talking about automation with the same brush like they're trying to be "lazy" and treat their still like it's a microwave.
I'm not ever leaving my still unattended. I'm foolish, but not that foolish.
To me this is making things safer. I just don't think we should automatically paint everyone talking about automation with the same brush like they're trying to be "lazy" and treat their still like it's a microwave.
I'm not ever leaving my still unattended. I'm foolish, but not that foolish.
_______________________________
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15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
- Still Life
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Re: Automate distilling process
Any tools supplemental to the art are certainly beneficial, speedfreaksteve.
I was simply addressing his admitted absentee use.
God love technology.
I was simply addressing his admitted absentee use.
God love technology.
- Oldvine Zin
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Re: Automate distilling process
So true - during my last run I started to smell a burning plastic smell, looked over to the 50 amp plug to see stalactites forming from the plug. Probably a bad connection inside - no fire and a quick run to the store fixed it, not sure if a computer based monitor would would have been better.speedfreaksteve wrote: I'm not ever leaving my still unattended. I'm foolish, but not that foolish.
OVZ
Re: Automate distilling process
When I ran my 2" VM with a birdwatchers recipe at 10-11 gallon wash my typical run would go 12-17 hours so I understand the why. I also ran a propane setup at the time which was also less safe. I new if I was going to continue I would have to make some changes in how I operated. To make changes and remain safe and enjoy what I was doing I did the following.
1. Built a 4" CM, runs depending on stripping or spirit go from 3-5 hours.
a) Also gave me more flexibility in the products I produce.
b) Went electric which was cheaper and safer.
2. Boosted my wifi reception to reach my outbuilding so I can do things/check things next to my still without leaving the area.
3. Came up with small projects to work on that can be done while distilling but not take me away from checking the still out at anytime during operation.
4. With my cell phone handy if I get hungry my wife is good about bringing me some food so I don't leave my operation. Just reading about the stories of explosions at distilleries because the still was left unattended is enough to keep me vigilant.
I also agree that adding safety features is always a great idea and posting these additions is how others get ideas to improve operations.
1. Built a 4" CM, runs depending on stripping or spirit go from 3-5 hours.
a) Also gave me more flexibility in the products I produce.
b) Went electric which was cheaper and safer.
2. Boosted my wifi reception to reach my outbuilding so I can do things/check things next to my still without leaving the area.
3. Came up with small projects to work on that can be done while distilling but not take me away from checking the still out at anytime during operation.
4. With my cell phone handy if I get hungry my wife is good about bringing me some food so I don't leave my operation. Just reading about the stories of explosions at distilleries because the still was left unattended is enough to keep me vigilant.
I also agree that adding safety features is always a great idea and posting these additions is how others get ideas to improve operations.
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Re: Automate distilling process
So what happens if you get a power "outage" when you are fast asleep ? Or your computer packs up ?
Re: Automate distilling process
Think of the istill. Its now about leaving things its about repeat-ability.. and different programs for different types of runs (Pot vs reflux etc). I think automation has a roll in HD but you still need to keep safety in mind.
For cuts automation not really going to help you... unless you do the exact same run all the time.. but there are so many variables this will never be perfect... I do think its good for data logging. Will let you know whats going on from wash to wash and run to run.. keep records and then see what runs you like the best then try to repeat.
I personally don't leave my setup when its running.. Have had to shut down a few times... as a result of this... (emergency bathroom break) I have seriously thought about computer control my power input and keep record of liquid temp, boiler temp and top the column temp... could help me tweak my process. Also be nice to have a flow meter to help set consistent rates for a given run.
B
For cuts automation not really going to help you... unless you do the exact same run all the time.. but there are so many variables this will never be perfect... I do think its good for data logging. Will let you know whats going on from wash to wash and run to run.. keep records and then see what runs you like the best then try to repeat.
I personally don't leave my setup when its running.. Have had to shut down a few times... as a result of this... (emergency bathroom break) I have seriously thought about computer control my power input and keep record of liquid temp, boiler temp and top the column temp... could help me tweak my process. Also be nice to have a flow meter to help set consistent rates for a given run.
B
Re: Automate distilling process
To talk about safety and control,
you could basically install alcohol and propane sensors in the room, above your still. As soon as ambient levels reach a certain threshold alarms could go off or there could be an automatic shutdown... How do you feel about that?
I do understand it's foolish to leave everything unattended, and I do have wifi and stuff in the garage (Bushman's idea of keeping yourself occupied).
I like engineering but do realize that big industrial plants are also never left unattended , so that's probably something I should copy from the industry as well then.
I guess the point is, like speedfreaksteve said, to let the still do more on its own, but not to leave it alone (I know, not really my original point, but I dropped that idea). I think regardless it'd be cool to have your still connected to your laptop spewing temperature data at you...
I guess some people will be opposed to this as it's not all done manually and the whole process is not as genuine, but think of the options.
You could hook up some pumps and solenoid valves and basically run your still with your computer. Control temperature and heating, control take-off, control emptying and cleaning. It's a huge project, but I think it'd be cool.
(and yes, in the unlikely event of your computer crashing, you'd still be sitting right next to it to do a manual "override")
you could basically install alcohol and propane sensors in the room, above your still. As soon as ambient levels reach a certain threshold alarms could go off or there could be an automatic shutdown... How do you feel about that?
I do understand it's foolish to leave everything unattended, and I do have wifi and stuff in the garage (Bushman's idea of keeping yourself occupied).
I like engineering but do realize that big industrial plants are also never left unattended , so that's probably something I should copy from the industry as well then.
I guess the point is, like speedfreaksteve said, to let the still do more on its own, but not to leave it alone (I know, not really my original point, but I dropped that idea). I think regardless it'd be cool to have your still connected to your laptop spewing temperature data at you...
I guess some people will be opposed to this as it's not all done manually and the whole process is not as genuine, but think of the options.
You could hook up some pumps and solenoid valves and basically run your still with your computer. Control temperature and heating, control take-off, control emptying and cleaning. It's a huge project, but I think it'd be cool.
(and yes, in the unlikely event of your computer crashing, you'd still be sitting right next to it to do a manual "override")
Re: Automate distilling process
Nobody is opposed to automation as bitters example explains but if it is used to not monitor the still then we on HD feel we have a safety problem.
Just sayin!
Just sayin!
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- Swill Maker
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Re: Automate distilling process
I don't think anyone is advocating running things unattended. For safety, electric is safer either way.Pikey wrote:So what happens if you get a power "outage" when you are fast asleep ? Or your computer packs up ?
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
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Re: Automate distilling process
I think propane is heavier than air ?Pelson wrote:To talk about safety and control,
you could basically install alcohol and propane sensors in the room, above your still. As soon as ambient levels reach a certain threshold alarms could go off or there could be an automatic shutdown... How do you feel about that?
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Re: Automate distilling process
Repeatability is a great strategy in this hobby, and that includes everything, mashing, fermenting, and running the still, although this is hard to achieve with most people's desires to always try something new.bitter wrote:Think of the istill. Its now about leaving things its about repeat-ability.. and different programs for different types of runs (Pot vs reflux etc). I think automation has a roll in HD but you still need to keep safety in mind.
B
I have been playing with adding a camera setup so that I can monitor my thermometer and watch my still during heatup time on my phone without actually standing right beside it. I like to do some outside chores while running my still, especially while waiting for it to get up to temp. I am experimenting with temp sensors as well, but that's a longer term project as it can get pretty complex I've found.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
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Re: Automate distilling process
There are people currently with brewing setups that have sensors to auto shutoff the propane if the burner goes out, basically a heat sensor and a propane fitting solenoid switch. It's not very difficult even to do.Pikey wrote:I think propane is heavier than air ?Pelson wrote:To talk about safety and control,
you could basically install alcohol and propane sensors in the room, above your still. As soon as ambient levels reach a certain threshold alarms could go off or there could be an automatic shutdown... How do you feel about that?
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
- MichiganCornhusker
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Re: Automate distilling process
speedfreaksteve wrote:I'm not ever leaving my still unattended. I'm foolish, but not that foolish.
This is the heart of the problem with these automation threads.speedfreaksteve wrote: I like to do some outside chores while running my still...
One moment it's all about watching the automated still run itself while attending it the whole time (wink wink), but then also wanting to be able to go do something else because you've cobbled some kind of warning device to the still.
If your other hobby is automating things, great, go for it, automate your still to your hearts content.
Just don't then pretend that you can go mow the grass because you have it live broadcasting to the phone in your pocket.
Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me...
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Re: Automate distilling process
I never said it was hard to do - But the OP specifically said ABOVE the still - BANG !speedfreaksteve wrote:There are people currently with brewing setups that have sensors to auto shutoff the propane if the burner goes out, basically a heat sensor and a propane fitting solenoid switch. It's not very difficult even to do.Pikey wrote:I think propane is heavier than air ?Pelson wrote:To talk about safety and control,
you could basically install alcohol and propane sensors in the room, above your still. As soon as ambient levels reach a certain threshold alarms could go off or there could be an automatic shutdown... How do you feel about that?
Some automation may well be great, but when we just stick sensors in assuming we have made the equipment Safe, without actually understanding what we are doing - that can be a scary path, especially if there are others living in the place !
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Re: Automate distilling process
I'm glad that we at least can have a discussion about it, but you're right we shouldn't be using any sort of warning device as an excuse to leave things unattended, that potentially makes it a more dangerous situation.MichiganCornhusker wrote:[
This is the heart of the problem with these automation threads.
One moment it's all about watching the automated still run itself while attending it the whole time (wink wink), but then also wanting to be able to go do something else because you've cobbled some kind of warning device to the still.
If your other hobby is automating things, great, go for it, automate your still to your hearts content.
Just don't then pretend that you can go mow the grass because you have it live broadcasting to the phone in your pocket.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
Re: Automate distilling process
It is nice that things at least can be discussed.
I once sold a glass still to someone who wanted to automate it in the early 80's of the past century.
I wonder how you could automate a process with gliding parameters. Would like to see some solutions.
To leave the still alone for me is no problem: I have only one uncontrollable part, namely the influx of natural gas from the national grid to my burner. So, when started and properly regulated, my still is as safe as a pan of simmering stew.
The gassupply can stop and then start again: that would fill my kitchen with gas. But it has never happened in this country, as far as I know.
I once sold a glass still to someone who wanted to automate it in the early 80's of the past century.
I wonder how you could automate a process with gliding parameters. Would like to see some solutions.
To leave the still alone for me is no problem: I have only one uncontrollable part, namely the influx of natural gas from the national grid to my burner. So, when started and properly regulated, my still is as safe as a pan of simmering stew.
The gassupply can stop and then start again: that would fill my kitchen with gas. But it has never happened in this country, as far as I know.
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Re: Automate distilling process
Your gas supply can stop. We had a case in Leicester a good many years ago. However, if it does, it will NOT be restarted - Purge and relight teams at the vvery least would have to visit and reworkk every home prior to letting the gas back on !
What makes you thingk your water supply is indestructible ?
What makes you thingk your water supply is indestructible ?
Re: Automate distilling process
I suppose one could automate a distilling process with established recipes, but personally, I prefer the olfactory senses, which you might have trouble automating with by any practical means
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.
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Re: Automate distilling process
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Black- ... lack+swansMDH wrote:I suppose one could automate a distilling process with established recipes, but personally, I prefer the olfactory senses, which you might have trouble automating with by any practical means
Good read
Re: Automate distilling process
So true.Pikey Wrote;
What makes you think your water supply is indestructible ?
Or seals, or hoses, or pumps, or glass, or fittings, or circuit boards, or thermocouples, or PID's, or or or,,,,,,,,, so many things can fail.
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- Swill Maker
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Re: Automate distilling process
I'll be adding this to my list. I listen to audio books like this all the time when I'm driving. Thanks for sharing.
_______________________________
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
15 gallon keg pot still
15 gallon Brew King boiler
2 35 gallon fermenters
- AK49ER
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Re: Automate distilling process
Nope don't care what new tech come up , have to be there tending , tweaking , looking , tasting, paying attention to the girl. She needs to be looked at and tweaked that's the fun of it right ? Well I think it is anyhow ...
AK49er
Re: Automate distilling process
Most of my stills can be run without any tweaking, so it would be easy to automate shut downs for completion and for faults that you might not notice if you are nodding off in front of the still, a kid has skinned their knees, Ma In Law has picked a fight, you've dropped dead from a heart attack, whatever.AK49ER wrote:Nope don't care what new tech come up , have to be there tending , tweaking , looking , tasting, paying attention to the girl. She needs to be looked at and tweaked that's the fun of it right ? Well I think it is anyhow ...
Re: Automate distilling process
That sounds a lot like what the guy said when he set the brakes on that train at Lac Magantic. Problem is, it's not that "only one uncontrollable part" that you are aware of that will screw you. It's the perfect storm of issues that you underestimated, worn parts, acts of god, and that one in a million chance of everything lining up just right or happening at the same instant. That is what will burn your whole downtown business district to the ground. It's always a combination of things, some impossible to anticipate, that make you look back later and say, "Holy shit, what were the odds of THAT happening?"Kareltje wrote:To leave the still alone for me is no problem: I have only one uncontrollable part, namely the influx of natural gas from the national grid to my burner. So, when started and properly regulated, my still is as safe as a pan of simmering stew.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"