Automate distilling process

Distillation methods and improvements.

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der wo
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by der wo »

Everything coming out of our stills except water is poisonous in pure form.
Every potstilled scotch is made like this. Stripping runs to 100ºC. You can remove the higher alcohols with the spirit run.

Edit: same answer like NZChris...
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papapro
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by papapro »

I always stopped at 96-98 at that i am getting 10 % ABV , I think is not worth the time and energy.

plus all congeners are concentrated below 78-79 deg C
Yes I am a Novice with 40+ years of doing this hobby
distilling is like sex the slower the better and everyone is happy
fermenting is opposit to sex the faster the better
WIski
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by WIski »

NZChris Wrote;

I have had all molasses rum washes go over 100C
NZ, what do you attribute this too? What is in the wash that allows it to boil at a higher temp than water. Or is it altitude and/or instrument accuracy? Very interesting.
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papapro
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Re: Automate distilling process

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Are you guys talking boiler temp or vapour temp, I always go by vapour temp.
Yes I am a Novice with 40+ years of doing this hobby
distilling is like sex the slower the better and everyone is happy
fermenting is opposit to sex the faster the better
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skow69
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by skow69 »

WIski wrote:
NZChris Wrote;

I have had all molasses rum washes go over 100C
NZ, what do you attribute this too? What is in the wash that allows it to boil at a higher temp than water.
Probably the boiling point of molasses. :D :D :D :D :D
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
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der wo
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by der wo »

papapro wrote:I always stopped at 96-98 at that i am getting 10 % ABV , I think is not worth the time and energy.
But perhaps it's worth the taste?
papapro wrote:plus all congeners are concentrated below 78-79 deg C
No. Search for "fusel alcohol". For example:
2-Methyl-1-butanol 127.5°C
Isoamyl alcohol 131.1°C
Isobutanol 107.9°C

Recently I stripped three Malt Whisky washes. I stopped at 99.6-99.8°C. Two months before I stripped Bourbon washes. I stopped at 100.2-100.4°C. Although I stopped at the same ratio between wash volume and low wines volume and the Bourbon mashes were a bit higher in abv. But of course I don't calibrate my thermometer all the time.
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by WIski »

Skow Wrote;

Probably the boiling point of molasses. :D :D :D :D :D
So I am understanding your comment to mean a converted and fermented molasses has the same properties as raw molasses? I see boiling point of raw molasses is around 107C.
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der wo
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by der wo »

papapro wrote:Are you guys talking boiler temp or vapour temp, I always go by vapour temp.
Vapor temp. But in a potstill stripping run without column or with insulated column there is in theory no difference between vapor and wash temperature.
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skow69
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by skow69 »

WIski wrote:So I am understanding your comment to mean a converted and fermented molasses has the same properties as raw molasses?
Well, I couldn't guarantee that. And actually that comment was meant lightheartedly. But my experience has been that anything you add to water,with the exception of volatile liquids like ethanol, will raise the boiling point. Vinegar and salt come to mind. Adding volatiles creates a mixture as described by Roult's law with partial pressures and all that scientific stuff.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by WIski »

Skow,

Gotchya, I was thinking with the conversion and ferment to ethanol maybe this would negate the effect of the unfermentables. My point to this thread would be that there are many variables to each run that would make automation difficult and unsafe at the hobby level. Thanks for the input. :thumbup:
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NZChris
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Re: Automate distilling process

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WIski wrote:
NZChris Wrote;

I have had all molasses rum washes go over 100C
NZ, what do you attribute this too? What is in the wash that allows it to boil at a higher temp than water. Or is it altitude and/or instrument accuracy? Very interesting.
Non fermentable sugars. Have you ever made toffee?
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NZChris
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Re: Automate distilling process

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papapro wrote:Are you guys talking boiler temp or vapour temp, I always go by vapour temp.
I never use vapor temperature. I don't have a thermometer anywhere above the charge.
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NZChris
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by NZChris »

papapro wrote:I always stopped at 96-98 at that i am getting 10 % ABV , I think is not worth the time and energy.

plus all congeners are concentrated below 78-79 deg C
It's worth it for flavor and my preheater is distilling by then, so the energy isn't being wasted.
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Kareltje
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Kareltje »

As this very nice thread goes from left to right, I feel free to revive this discussion.
cranky wrote:
Kareltje wrote:it gradually crawls backward, until it reaches the start of the spiral or the top of the riser.
At the same time the amount of condensed fluid diminishes, until it reaches almost zero.
That's actually exactly what I would expect to happen. As the alcohol in a wash diminishes it requires more heat input to keep the wash boiling at the same rate and less cooling to condense the smaller amount of vapor.

It's a very inefficient system to be honest. You could run much faster if you simply add a cooling source.
This remark triggered me to do some comparing runs. For it is a very sound remark.
A short time ago I purchased a still with a Liebig condenser, so I finally am able to test it.
I ran a wheatwash of about 12 % and took 5 litre in a 10 litre boiler. Which proved to be too much, as it puked and in some runs severly puked too.
To play with my new Liebig condenser I ran one wash full speed, that is 1.552 W. From the first drop till completely empty (a distllate of 2 %!) it took 133 minutes and 12.388 kJ.
Then I ran with my aircooler, regulated at 8 of 9 windings hot, which turned out to be 555 W. The run took 236 minutes but only 7.855 kJ.
In both cases I got about 520 ml absolute alcohol. In both cases the heating up from start to the first drop took about 4 MJ.

I did not expect to be proven so very right, so I suspected I had overdone the full speed.
And next week I ran two runs on speeds in between the first extremes.
Of course again 5 l of about 12 %, resulting in 500 till 550 ml aa. Including puking.
One at 881 W, taking 128 minutes and costing 6.763 kJ and the second at 1.206 W, taking 157 min costing 11.364 kJ.

This clearly was not a nice and neat scientific experiment, as I proved inexperienced in operating a Liebig cooler and the runs (heavily) puked and measurements were a bit clumsy. I want to do some more testruns, but for now I think that cooling with air takes no more heating energy than cooling with water, it only takes much more time.
But I grant you: the dissipated heat can not be reused with aircooling as it can via hot water. I used it to clean equipment.
On the other hand: it takes much more attention.
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NZChris
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by NZChris »

Kareltje wrote:On the other hand: it takes much more attention.
Automate it. I'm running the cooling water off the condensate temperature today. I turn it on and don't need to touch it for the rest of the day. Stops and starts and preheater recharges are all taken care of.
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Kareltje
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Kareltje »

Yeah, I hoped it could run stable by itself, but the watertap slowly crawls back.
Knowing myself I think I will at some point start thinking about automation. :mrgreen:
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by Kareltje »

Another test with both water and air as coolant confirmed my previous findings: one is not more or less efficient as the other.

This is not according to intuition, so I was pondering about the reason, when my eye fell on the isolation of my kettle. After I picked up my eye I got a thermometer and the outside of this mantle was barely 30 dgr C in stead of the 100 dgr C on the inside. So a prolonged cooking does not result in much larger losses. And losses on the riser and the condenser result in a higher %ABV and more product, so do not appear as a loss in efficiency.
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papapro
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Re: Automate distilling process

Post by papapro »

Kareltje wrote:Yeah, I hoped it could run stable by itself, but the watertap slowly crawls back.
Knowing myself I think I will at some point start thinking about automation. :mrgreen:
do not relay on water tap add needle valve between your tap and condenser open tap full and control with needle valve.
Yes I am a Novice with 40+ years of doing this hobby
distilling is like sex the slower the better and everyone is happy
fermenting is opposit to sex the faster the better
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