Show us your graphs

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EventfulAnimal
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Show us your graphs

Post by EventfulAnimal »

Newbie here, using a pot still over a 60 litre boiler. Meticulously gathering and graphing data from my first rum runs has been a great way for me to get a feel for the system.

I couldn't find a thread dedicated to interesting or educative data viz, so here goes. This one is a very simple graph of distillate volume (ml), vapor temp (C) and ABV (%) as a function of t.

It was a 50 litre rum wash with 2400W element.

Image
Pikey
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Pikey »

I like that :)

I think most of us keep records, especially for the first few of a new recipe, but graphing them certainly gives a good "feel" as you say.

Did you use a parrot ? or were your abv's discrete measurements ?

I'd like to see your individual measurements annotated as "points" on your graphs, and I'd like to see what happened when you got to 100 C - I find I'm still getting low abv's at that point (5-10%) whereas in theory it should be zero.

Great idea though - look forward to seeing more 8)

[EDIT - Interesting too that step in your volume line and return to the same slope during the second hour - I'd like to see if that is just a "Blip" or if it repeats on further trials. :thumbup: ]
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NZChris
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by NZChris »

I've graphed a few, but haven't kept them. Changes in the rates on the graphs were always associated with external influences such as the opening or closing of a door causing changes in heat loss. The thermometer in the vapor always showed the most change.

If you note the times of significant events during the run, you should be able to correlate them with changes on the graph.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Bushman »

NZChris wrote:I've graphed a few, but haven't kept them. Changes in the rates on the graphs were always associated with external influences such as the opening or closing of a door causing changes in heat loss. The thermometer in the vapor always showed the most change.

If you note the times of significant events during the run, you should be able to correlate them with changes on the graph.
+1, very subjective to many variables. But having said that all data has some reliance.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by NZChris »

Bushman wrote:But having said that all data has some reliance.
Yeah, like it tells you you've left the door open again :D
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Pikey »

In order to see whether an apparent event on a graph is real, or due to a mouse farting in the next county, it's a normally accepted principle to repeat the trial and see if it happens again :)

If it appears repeatedly, then it's time to investigate whether orhers can duplicate the experimental results. :)
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Kareltje »

Nice one! I'll find some of my own graphs and post them. For now I have a question: you ran 50 l to the end in 3:21 hours with 2400 W? The %ABV seems to be the mean % of the total product, not the % of the sample.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Pikey »

I don't think he ran it to the end K - seems to have stopped around 96 - 97 C. His abv's are similar to what I would expect from samples on my kit in the temp range he records.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by bluefish_dist »

You should also record your atmospheric pressure. I have found it can change the boiling point 1 deg or so.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Kareltje »

Pikey wrote:I don't think he ran it to the end K - seems to have stopped around 96 - 97 C. His abv's are similar to what I would expect from samples on my kit in the temp range he records.
I think so too.
I must admit that my personal main concern was something else: I got a still of 80 litres and plan to fill it with 60 litres this summer. It has one element of 2000 and one of 900 W, according to the builder. This is quite huge and totally new for me, so I liked to get some information about running such a large still. Not intending to make a run of 24 hours.
A second interest was my joy in making graphs. I certainly come back on that subject.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by OtisT »

DavidR. Love your idea of sharing graphs and run data.

I record data over time in tabular format, but never graphed it. I'm attaching an example of how I record data, and will look for some time to graph the meaningful parts from a more current run. I use this style of logging on new stills or when I make changes to existing ones. I've been wanting to change this form for some time, so will look to make the changes I want and will see about graphing some data to share in addition to the new format of the table once it is done.
Attachments
Distillation Run sheet
Distillation Run sheet
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Pikey »

Otis, If you have Excel, You can enter your data into a table you make up to suit yourself and it will enable you to tell it what data you want to chart and Lo - It was done ! :D

I use it for a number of purposes, but not as yet for making booze ! :lol:
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by OtisT »

Pikey wrote:Otis, If you have Excel, You can enter your data into a table you make up to suit yourself and it will enable you to tell it what data you want to chart and Lo - It was done ! :D

I use it for a number of purposes, but not as yet for making booze ! :lol:
Thanks Pikey for the suggestion. That form I use is in excel and I am a freaking Excel Wizard, if I do say so myself. I'm not against the idea of graphing this specific data, I've just felt I had any need for the graphs because I can see what I need on the table. That said, since this thread was started I thought I would give it a try anyway when I get the time. Maybe I will find it helpful. I'm guessing a graph will be most informative when I am doing a spirit run in pot still mode. When I'm fractioning, the graph would be quite boering. When I'm stripping, I don't give a shit. ;-)
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by NZChris »

My graphs were plotted using the software that came with a USB thermometer, but the novelty wore off after a few runs. There is more info of value in my run notes than from the graphs.

There are Wi-Fi Thermometers available too, but I haven't tried them yet.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by EventfulAnimal »

Loving the feedback.

Pikey (and others) I was also curious about the blip before the 3 hour mark. It is entirely possible that this was a clerical error resulting from sampling each new jar of product as it arrived. I broke the cuts up into mostly 400ml jars and wrote a qualitative observation for each (taste/smell/viscosity/clarity etc).
Maybe it was a temp/barometric change after sunset. Good idea to mark the sampling points on the volume line too.

I wasn't using a parrot but plan to get one.

I did cut the run a bit short because I heard a break in at a store across the road from my house and shut the still down to give chase on foot in while on the phone to the law! (100% true story and made for an eventful evening.)

I will repeat and observe.


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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by EventfulAnimal »

Kareltje wrote:The %ABV seems to be the mean % of the total product, not the % of the sample.
It's the % of each individual cut, which was usually 400 ml but up to 1 litre.


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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Badmotivator »

I'm proud of this graph here:
Pot/Plates Comparison
Pot/Plates Comparison
I produced this to help sort out the question of the value of running spirit runs slowly, in this thread (skip to page 9 to get the details on my experiment): http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=58627

I made six identical 4-gal charges and ran them under different distillation regimes and recorded the ABV all through the run. The graph shows that the difference between low-power high-passive-reflux pot distillation and high-power low-passive-reflux distillation is small even on a stripping run. It will of course be even smaller on higher-ABV spirit run. In any case, the difference between high and low power is tiny compared to the difference of adding one re-distillation plate and a modest active reflux ratio.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by EventfulAnimal »

Badmotivator: That is a super cool illustration of the power of simple data visualisation for quickly grasping a problem.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Kareltje »

Two runs: one with a condenser with OD 9 mm
Dun-en-traag02.jpg
and one with a condenser OD 15 mm.
Wijd-en-traag02.jpg
Both condensers are cooled by air. Both times I used a spiral riser with OD 15 mm and a length of 2 m.
And both times A started very slow but opened the valve a bit after 4 hours to speed up.

And one to test efficiency of hard and slow stilling:
hard-en-zacht.jpg
This time not as % of the total product against time, but against W used since the first drop.
Edit: :oops: Shame on me: that should not be W but kJ used, of course! :roll:
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Appalachia-Shiner »

My Grandpa made Likker all his life and I doubt if he ever saw a Graff lessen it was in a Traveling Circus.
Jest Sayin....
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Jimbo »

Badmotivator, that is a sweet graph that tells you a whole heapload if you stare at it long enough. If you superimpose heads, hearts, tails cuts on that along with vapor temp at the takeoff point it will be a work of art.

Find that sweet spot on take off temp and you can stretch your hearts run by adjusting defleg water over the course of the run. It will flatten out them top 3 lines, keeping the proof up longer, until it just falls off like a rock at the end.

I dont graph the runs but I take lots of run notes, or used to anyway. There's lots to learn about the process by paying attention and the closer attention you pay in the beginning to whats happening, and working, or not working, the faster you start cooking like Grandma does. And thats where it gets real fun, for me anyway. For any given recipe I can glance at the vapor temp thermometer and know pretty much exactly where its at and what that cut tastes like.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Pikey »

BAdmotivator, You have every right to be proud of that graph. :thumbup:

I find it fascinating and will read that thread in detail when I have a little more time, but it does seem to show an anomaly at the minimum proof side, where all of the runs seem to show a minimum proof of 10, or 5% abv for one or two time periods at the end of your runs. They seem to be all the same and I've noticed a tendency in that direction on my own runs. :?

Did you notice that ?
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Badmotivator »

I don't remember noticing that minimum output proof thing. I'm not sure what it means or how important/interesting it is. It might reflect nothing more than my laziness in making a precise measurement; the lines are very close together at that part of the hydrometer, there's a meniscus to look through, stuffs bouncing around and spinning, I'm eager to get it over with, etc.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Kareltje »

@Pikey:
I did some various runs lately and did not see your border: I ended at 1 %, 1,5 %, 2,5 %, 4 % or other percentages below 5 %.
But, as Badmotivator says: a very correct measurment is hard to make.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Pikey »

Thanks lads, it was just a little "something" I seemed to notice. As you say - it's the end of the run and a little boredom especially at such low levels sets in. Kareltje's results seem to "kick it into touch" 8)
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Kareltje »

Today I tested the effect of isolating my 10-l boiler with a 20-l can and some cheap isolation used to keep carwindows free of frost in winter and free of melting in summer.
I filled it with 4 liter wash and by sheer accident I ran both runs at 704 W. I used a small, horizontal lyne arm.
Test isolatie.jpg
Of course the run with isolation took less time at the same energy input.
What surprised me at first was the higher starting % of the run with the nude boiler. Until I thought of the large empty space in the head of the boiler. Must have worked like a column.
So the loss of energy had some use.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Pikey »

Thanks for that K - I run a tall thin "naked" copper column and removed my insulation a long time ago - looking for an amount od "passive reflux" which your graphs seem to show.

Since your abv is lower all the way through with the insulation, I assume it's volume must have been larger ?
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Kareltje »

Yes. I did not make that graph, but with insulation indeed the total volume was 1.582 vs 1.326. And I seem to have lost a bit alcohol, but that can also be a fault in some measurement.

I now understand why I could make 94 %ABV with my first iron boiler with 0,5 m high riser with copper: all uninsulated!
But I wonder if the effect will be as strong when I fill the boiler in stead of leaving 60 % open space.
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Pikey »

Since your graphs stop way before 0%, I think you're just leaving alcohol in the pot.

I run a 25 mm column - 1 m to the "offset" and here is my last "Bacardi(ish)" run :
Bacardish.jpg
see how much is left in "tails" - I run to 100C or a little more (head temp) - but still leave alcohol in the pot - my last measures are <20% @ 100.30 C or thereabouts.

I'd like for you to record your head temps for those two graphs, if you feel it wothwhile because I think it would show your head temps actually HIGHER for the "naked", due to more of the latent heat of vapourisation being released towards the 100C mark. (especially so - since we do not know each other)

I run at nearly 2kw on my 25 litres, and I suspect if I was to drop my wattage to 750 like yours my abv would rise dramatically.

When I first started I was trying to "run by temperature" and holding my head temp down to 85C I was hitting 85 abv, but of course not getting nearly the right amount of product.

to get to 95 - you must have a really narrow column run very slowly ?

As you can see from my "Jars" my abvs are not a million kilometers away from yours "naked" and I feel they are good enough for me to do "1.5's" easily

atb

p
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Re: Show us your graphs

Post by Kareltje »

Pikey wrote:Since your graphs stop way before 0%, I think you're just leaving alcohol in the pot.

I run a 25 mm column - 1 m to the "offset" and here is my last "Bacardi(ish)" run :
Bacardish.jpg
see how much is left in "tails" - I run to 100C or a little more (head temp) - but still leave alcohol in the pot - my last measures are <20% @ 100.30 C or thereabouts.

I'd like for you to record your head temps for those two graphs, if you feel it wothwhile because I think it would show your head temps actually HIGHER for the "naked", due to more of the latent heat of vapourisation being released towards the 100C mark. (especially so - since we do not know each other)

I run at nearly 2kw on my 25 litres, and I suspect if I was to drop my wattage to 750 like yours my abv would rise dramatically.

When I first started I was trying to "run by temperature" and holding my head temp down to 85C I was hitting 85 abv, but of course not getting nearly the right amount of product.

to get to 95 - you must have a really narrow column run very slowly ?

As you can see from my "Jars" my abvs are not a million kilometers away from yours "naked" and I feel they are good enough for me to do "1.5's" easily

atb

p
That are many questions in one post. I will try to answer them.

Note that my graph shows the collected distillate, not the individual samples. I ran both these runs to 4 %ABV in the sample (of 100 ml), so the boiler was quite empty. The graphs of the samples shows the same effect, so I omitted them.

My piping is quite narrow, indeed: 13 mm ID, both for lyne arm and air cooled condenser. I ran the naked boiler at first and guessed the correct position of the valve. My condenser of 9 windings was heated for 6 windings. When I ran the clothed boiler with the same position I had to cool the condenser with wet clothes and still I got warm distillate!

My first still had a riser of 28 mm ID, which looked much better. When I wanted to reach high %% I took a riser of 75 cm long and filled it with copper curls and small pebbles to imitate Raschig rings. The boiler was just an upside down iron funnel, so the heat losses must have been great. It had a small spiral, air cooled condenser and this might have contributed to the higher % too. In hindsight: I must have run it very slowly, according to HD standards.

Recently I bought a still with a riser of 19,8 mm ID on a helmet. Looks much better. It is funny how a judgment by look or feeling can be proven correct when you experience or calculate it. Or not!
The bought still had a watercooled condenser, which allowed me to run the maximum power of my stove, being 2,4 kW. And I made a thumperhead for it.
All parts can be connected to each other, so I feel very flexible.

To get a large column under a low roof I bend a 15 mm OD copper pipe of 2 m length to a spiral of about 30 cm high. On top of a ginbox it allows me to reach 90 %ABV for starters out of a low wine of 30 %ABV. As I never drink 90 %ABV, I use it mainly to reduce storage space.

I tend to think that for concentrating alcohol you need a certain amount of energy. Whether you distill very slow, or with much heat loss, or with a lot of plates, or with a long column almost makes no difference. When I do not use my kettles mantle I get 75 % for starters, when I use its mantle, and put my ginbox on top, I get the same.

I tried some different energy inputs some time ago and, related to the energy input, the runs were almost identical. But all with insulated boilers, I must say. The graph is somewhere above.

In my 15 mm OD (13 mm ID) piping I use meat thermometers, which are a bit off. One shows 98 dgr C at the end, the other 102 dgr C. But one can compare the readings of the same thermometer in different runs.

I will make a graph of mean temp per sample vs % of sample. Tomorrow, when I am sober again. For your suggestion makes sense.
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