Removing foreshots and heads at super slow rate

[papapro]

At the begining I would like to discribe my rig.

16l pot with modular attachements so I could use as pot or reflux
2 inch tubing with slanted plate with double wound condenser and needle valve.
and liebieg condenser.For heating I am using induction hotplate the cheapper model
so I can controll temperature within 10deg F. The plate has max heat 1300W/ Sear and min setting
is 100degF with intervals of 10 Deg. There is available 1800W with 5 degF intervals in USA.

this was run as a pot still the same wash in two runs one start at 1drop per sec
and another at 35- 45 sec per drop .

the wash apr 12% both were filled with 13l. so from calculation I should get 1.56l of
pure alcohol and the fores and heads should be between 15-20% of that amount which would give me
.150ml-.200ml and then I should be in the hearts. At the 700W setting 350deg F in the boiler.

Bu running it out 1 drop per sec I was going just that and I was happy whith it.
Then I wanted to try a run very slow so I dropped the heat to minimum. That day I had about 9 liters of low wines
they went to the boiler I adjusted to 40 % with 1l of water so I got 10liters.

So as ussual for my preheat I setup as sear at full heat and set up the tempalarm at 55 deg C.
At that moment I started to notice drips very slow then I set up the temp at 175 deg F
for some reason the plate can be setup at that temperature. The cooling water I adjusted at fast dripping
and I was collecting 1 drop fo every 45 sec, I was curious how far I can go like that and when I can start tasting
nice sweet product.

It took a lot of time more than 2 hours and I was in nice sweet taste and no bad smell but in the jar I had less than
75 ml of fores and heads together so I think it is possible to separate the heads and fores and by running super slow.
After that bitter taste and smell I adjusted cooling water much faster and the temp in the boiler for 220- 240 deg F and continued collecting
at the thin pencil rate.

I think by running like that we might not need to air it out.

I have corn flake wash finishing at 12% so when is done I would like to run stripping like that.
I will post it ASAP

PapaPro

[OtisT]

Hi Papapro. I have just a few observations and questions for you regarding your post.

IMHO, One drop per second is a nice and slow takeoff rate for collecting fores. I don't see any advantage to going slower, especially with a pot still. (The exception to this may be additional ester production, but that is a different thread entirely.). Hat said, keep experimenting and share your observations.

Do you use a heat sync on your hotplate?

I'm curious how easy it is for you to maintain that slow rate, and how steady the rate is? ( I am assuming there is no forced reflux going on). I run my small rig with a hotplate and It's a chore to get my Pot Still down to a consistent 1 drop per second, let alone one per 45 sec. My hotplate is a high end 1500w unit and I use a heat sync to smooth out the surges. I can get a steady 1.5 drips/sec, but 1 dps takes luck and patience dialing that drip rate in. Also, going lower for me typically results in a very inconsistent drip rate, surging between too fast and too slow. What is your trick? . Of course, If I decide to use a little reflux, I can dial the rate in to as fast or as slow as I need, with no problem. This is why I typically use reflux to collect fore shots and early heads before I turn that off and go to pure pot stillin.

In my experience, you can "compress" the fores and heads into a smaller percentage/fraction of you total run volume by going slower and even more compression of these "fractions" occurs if you introduce forced reflux. Regardless of the method, there is still a smearing of alcohols in your collected product throughout the run and you won't find a clear dividing line. Because of the smearing, I personally feel all of my jars, even the heart of hearts, benefit from some airing. Easy to prove out. Air one jar of hearts and don't air the jar next to it. Wait 24 hours and give em both a whiff. If you can't tell the difference, I'll be very surprised.

I also pre-calculate theoretical yields and estimate where I may make cuts, but that decision is always made by smell and taste, and never by a percentage. Yes, after running the same recipe several times I can guess really close, but nothing beats the nose for making cuts, even if it is just to confirm your prediction. .

An additional note on your estimates for collection volumes... You calculated the theoretical yield collecting at 100% ABV, but you will want to then factor in your collection purity, which will change your collection volume predictions. As an example, I may start collecting from a pot still run at 85% ABV, but I'm typically down to 81% or 82% by the time I start getting into the hearts, and am down to ~20% ABV collection when II finally shut things down.

Can't wait to hear about your cornflake run. . Happy stillin. Otis

[papapro]

Hi Otis:
my hot plate is induction NuWave_PIC this one is sold in Canada as I said in my post has many different temp setting one of them is 175 deg F the boiler is stainless steel so that lets me dial so low I could go even lower
but this was only a test I have a couple of literes of fors destine as fuel to get some milage.
I was thinking to do a run on this stuff. normaly I was taking 150ml of fors on 13-14 liter charge. So in it there is still a lot of good stuff.

"I'm curious how easy it is for you to maintain that slow rate, and how steady the rate is? ( I am assuming there is no forced reflux going on" NO reflux at all and the needle valve fully open so whatever is cought by
condenser goes as output.

Regarding my calculations yes I did on the 100% and I should check the product strenght and recalculate
but I was happy with the taste and smell after taking so small amount of fors and heads.
I read a couple of books and the max they say for the heads 12 to 15 % of total I used 15-20 to be on the save side.

Otis you said that your setup is also small do yo use regular hotplate with heating element is your pot stainless
and where do you live.

[skow69]

Hi papa,

Here are some thoughts. Using percentages to make cuts might be close enough to get started with, but pretty soon you will want to graduate to using the smell and taste. I sometimes think that those authors who state which fraction will occupy what portion of the distillate are doing their readers a disservice, but what the hell, you have to start somewhere. Making cuts on the fly like you described has the disadvantage of averaging the product and masking the transitions. This is what Otis was referring to, also.

Try this: Read Kiwi's guide here a few times. Then collect in small jars and sample each one individually. Like Otis, I find a noticeable change between every jar. Now you can nail down the transitions with precision. The other method is like dumping all the jars into a pot and tasting the mixture. Sure, it may taste sweet and nice, or it may not, but now we know that there are heads and tails in there that you can never get rid of. Or on the other hand (depending on where your percentages landed) you have to wonder how much hearts you tossed in with the fores and heads.

If you have trouble discerning the difference between jars, don't give up. It takes practice. None of us were born with a parrot in our hand. We all had to learn it the hard way. Practice and experience are the only way to get there. Running a still is a pretty simple procedure. Making great booze is a different matter entirely. Read through Kiwi's guide before every run, and pretty soon it will all make sense. Then it will be time to move on to the next challenge. That is the fun of it. There is always another mountain to climb.

This probably won't make any difference to the way you drive the still, but it is vital for accurate communication with another 'stiller. It's about the temperatures you referenced.

At the 700W setting 350deg F in the boiler.
[and] After that bitter taste and smell I adjusted cooling water much faster and the temp in the boiler for 220- 240 deg F and continued collecting at the thin pencil rate.

I don't know what your high tech hotplate is measuring, but one thing we can be certain of is that the temperature in your boiler is between 172f and 212f. If that is not immediately obvious, please spend some time in the parent site, starting with the Theory section. It may not seem relevant right now, but sooner or later you are going to need to know that stuff. If you want to make GREAT booze, that is.

[Pikey]

papapro, you're coming up with temperatures which cannot be true wash temperatures here. Are you referring to some sort of measurement of the temperature of the hotplate and telling us that ?

[papapro]

Hi Skow:

I read the kiwi guide many many times and I agree with that I was doing that way and getting good product
also the books I refered give us aproximetly procentages to learn from.

Please read my post few few times learn about my setup look over the net for actual eqipmen I have
maybe buy some like hot plate try duplicate what I did and you would understand.

As of reading parent site I read id many many times before I joined this forum and still refaring to it.

What ever setup you have try to run it super slow when you get the first drops.

Regarding the temps I mentioned NuWave hot plate has display and tells me the temp of the pot
because magnetic field heats it up not direct heat and that is the differnce
you said
"I don't know what your high tech hotplate is measuring, but one thing we can be certain of is that the temperature in your boiler is between 172f and 212f."yo

The the hotplate was set to 175 that is obvious it was in the range 172f and 212f.

Skow for your next run try it you can only loose few hours of your time.

Regards
PapaPro

[papapro]

papapro, you're coming up with temperatures which cannot be true wash temperatures here. Are you referring to some sort of measurement of the temperature of the hotplate and telling us that ?

Pikey: As I said to Skow the hot plate is heated by magnetic field and tells me what the temperature is at.
I do not have thermometer in the boiler so I do not know what it is.

I have only thermometer at the collection point and that temp was lower than the hot plate was telling me.

Regards
PapaPro

[papapro]

Guys:
lets think about it:
If you make a decent cut and air it for 24 hours during that time all voletile compounds would evaporate and I agree 100% with that, What can happen if we heat up product during spirit run to 64.6 Deg C for a longer time lets say 5 hours. All the bad stuf will evaporate similar to 24 hr in room temp for me it is the same.

PapaPro

[still_stirrin]

...the hot plate is heated by magnetic field and tells me what the temperature is at. I do not have thermometer in the boiler so I do not know what it is. I have only thermometer at the collection point and that temp was lower than the hot plate was telling me.

Pappy,

Perhaps translation to and from your native language is making it difficult for you to understand what the thread responses say. But, science has proven that the liquid in the boiler cannot be hotter than 212*F....unless you've got oil or something else with a higher boiling point than water. I guess vinegar would boil hotter than water and/or alcohol, with it's boiling point of 244.6*F. But most certainly a wash or even low wines will not boil at temperatures greater than 212*F.

So, your hotplate may have a temperature reading and thermostatic control which says it is hotter than 212*F, but it is obviously not "measuring" the boiling liquid's temperature. And since it is not a resistive element heater, it isn't even the actual temperature of the surface of the heater element. What the number means is obscure, but it may be helpful to you when adjusting the power input, similar to the ammeter reading on my controller when running my boiler.

For example, the current reading gives me a relative feedback measure of "much power" or "minimum power" at different scaler measurements throughout the run. Sure, I could multiply the ammeter reading by the voltmeter reading at any given time to "calculate" the power, but is that any better than simply using the current reading as the "ruler" (measurement)? Likewise, the number you read on the hotplate can't possibly be the temperature of the liquid, but it may give you an indication of the "relative" input power and the potential for vapor production at any given time.

I hope this can retranslate back to you in a manner that you can understand. Denying physics is going to give you a "rough ride" here to say the least. 40 years of experience would give you a good knowledge of your observations, although it may not explain the "miracle" that happens inside of your boiler and stillhead. That...is learned through science.
ss

[papapro]

...the hot plate is heated by magnetic field and tells me what the temperature is at. I do not have thermometer in the boiler so I do not know what it is. I have only thermometer at the collection point and that temp was lower than the hot plate was telling me.

Pappy,

Perhaps translation to and from your native language is making it difficult for you to understand what the thread responses say. But, science has proven that the liquid in the boiler cannot be hotter than 212*F....unless you've got oil or something else with a higher boiling point than water. I guess vinegar would boil hotter than water and/or alcohol, with it's boiling point of 244.6*F. But most certainly a wash or even low wines will not boil at temperatures greater than 212*F.'
Lets not talk about native languages yes I speak several...and mayby you can not understand that settings I mentioned it happened are showing the temp on the steel pot but the liquid is much lower I know that perfectly

So, your hotplate may have a temperature reading and thermostatic control which says it is hotter than 212*F, but it is obviously not "measuring" the boiling liquid's temperature. And since it is not a resistive element heater, it isn't even the actual temperature of the surface of the heater element. What the number means is obscure, but it may be helpful to you when adjusting the power input, similar to the ammeter reading on my controller when running my boiler.
Obviousy if you set the temperature on 500f water will boil at 212f the only differnce at 500 will boil hard and 212 simmer

For example, the current reading gives me a relative feedback measure of "much power" or "minimum power" at different scaler measurements throughout the run. Sure, I could multiply the ammeter reading by the voltmeter reading at any given time to "calculate" the power, but is that any better than simply using the current reading as the "ruler" (measurement)? Likewise, the number you read on the hotplate can't possibly be the temperature of the liquid, but it may give you an indication of the "relative" input power and the potential for vapor production at any given time.
In my setup I ussualy set to 700 W on the setting on hotplate shows 350 for the run in this case when tuned Hot plate to 175 the power was fluctuating to maintain whatever temp it was

I hope this can retranslate back to you in a manner that you can understand. Denying physics is going to give you a "rough ride" here to say the least. 40 years of experience would give you a good knowledge of your observations, although it may not explain the "miracle" that happens inside of your boiler and stillhead. That...is learned through science.

Yes my 40+ years of experience gave me a very good knowldge
ss

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Subscribed - looking forward to reading more!

[OtisT]

Otis you said that your setup is also small do yo use regular hotplate with heating element is your pot stainless and where do you live.

Hi Papapro. Yes, most of my stillin has been using a basic 10 gallon Stainless Steel boiler pan sitting on a 1500 watt hot plate. I bought a professional kitchen model, Broil King, knowing that it would be used for continious heating for long periods of time. I add a heat sync between the pan and hotplate for spirit runs, to help even out hotplate heat surges. (Not needed for stripping). The sync is a 3"lb flat sheet of aluminum, 1/4" x 10" x 10". I use a 2" vapor management column on my 10 gallon boiler. The column is split, so I can run it short or add the extension for fractioning. My boiler and column can be insulated, when desired. I always run the boiler insulated to maximize power. With only 1500 watts, I needed to try and minimize as much heat loss as I can, saving power for making vapor and turning it back into liquid.

I've had no problem making anything I want with this rig. The main issue with the hotplate is speed. Example, it can take two hours to bring 8 gallons to a boil, and I've had some 14 hour spirit runs when fractioning.

I am from the state of Oregon in the USA.

[papapro]

Hi Otis:
Did you remove the stat from hot plate if you did not hen you will have surges where I live the surges
are on NuWave at 600 W up just arund 6 to 8 W I have power meter that can display voltage ,current and power
I would strongly recommend NuWave the US model has 1800W and dial every 5 deg F probably 40 setting
and is programable you can really do magic with it.
If you want I got pdf manual for it I can attach.

PapaPro

[Danespirit]

+1 On what the others wrote.

An induction plate may be a fine thing to use, as you would negate the thermal mass a conventional hot plate has, which again brings surging to a minimum.
However, you'll need some kind of controller to fine tune the power setting. That would be unless your plate has such feature build in...? (I haven't seen any yet).
By reducing the power input so much that the take off is drip wise is fine.
There will be some kind of smearing through the fractions, regardless of how slow you run...but you'll reduce it by running so slow.
A thin pencil lead stream should be fine for a 2" Boka when you're into the hearts.
Calculating the yield is always a little guesswork. You can't know beforehand how much foreshots you have in there or if you stop collecting at 20 or lets say 22 % ABv.
I'm looking forward to that corn flake ferment you have going.

[papapro]

Just did another test on that hotplate , setup small pot filled with water and set up setting on 175
rised to the temperature and slowly dropped to 163 nad maintain that for half an hour probably you can run like that in closed environment for hours.

[OtisT]

Hi Otis:
Did you remove the stat from hot plate if you did not hen you will have surges where I live the surges
are on NuWave at 600 W up just arund 6 to 8 W I have power meter that can display voltage ,current and power
I would strongly recommend NuWave the US model has 1800W and dial every 5 deg F probably 40 setting
and is programable you can really do magic with it.
If you want I got pdf manual for it I can attach.

PapaPro

Thanks for the offer of info on the new wave unit. It's not necessary.

No, I did not remove the "stat." IMHO, that would risk burning up my hotplate for little benefit, and it is a safety risk. Limiters are there for a reason, and it's not to make you want more power or to get you to buy a better unit. It keeps parts from melting, circuits from breaking, and fires from starting. When you want more power, buy a bigger unit that is rated for what you want.

Programmable? Not necessary IMHO. I am the program, and a simple one at that. My best features are my sensors; Eyes, fingers, mouth.

I control surges with the heat sync. Surging is only an issue for me when running slow (low power). When running w/o a sync, I see 4 or 5 deg F temp swings (Vapor temp at the takeoff). With a 1 lb cast iron sync, I see only 2-3 deg F swings. With the 3 lb block, there is no perceived surging. I also have excellent insulation on my boiler walls/top and column, which helps maintain a consistent temp. There is additional power loss with using syncs, but I feel the trade off is necessary for the control you want when slow stillin.

I don't mean this to sound negative, so please don't take it the wrong way. For me, all those reading capabilities on a heater are not necessary. For most applications I just need a power knob with some relative marks on it. Mine goes from 1-12. I strip and bring washes up to boil on full power. When pot stilling slow, I start at around 5 and when I want to adjust the rate I turn it up a hair, or down a hair. For refluxing, it varies depending on what (estimated) ratio I want. A sight glass with some visual feedback helped me dial in my reflux settings. It's all about knowing Your Equipment and what relative setting you need, then fine tuning from there based on what you observe through sight and touch. Cooling is managed the same way. Adjust reflux cooling flow by coolant output temp, determined by touch, and product cooling flow is determined by collected product temp coming off of the still (also determined by touch.)

Nothing you are doing is bad. I monitored, recorded and analyzed power, vapor and cooling temps, rate, ABV off the still, etc. values for a long time, and it helped me learn a great deal. I also revert back and monitor some of these variables in detail when changing out equipment or troubleshooting. I like to predict results, measure actual, then decide what to do with that knowledge when I have both and can explain any variances.

Once you get to know your rig, even the thermometer becomes unnecessary for the most part. I just completed two very slow and low spirit runs with my small rig that are my best drops yet. Power went from 12 (bring to boil) to 5 (collect fores) to 5.5 or 6 (early run) to 7 toward the end to increase collection rate when I was well into the bottoms and past my likely cuts. I didn't even look at my thermometer except as a curiosity.

I love stillin. Otis.

[skow69]

Papa, I wasn't trying to start a fight. Perhaps I underestimated how much research you have done and how much experience you have. Nevertheless, I think that timing your heads cut by some calculated percentage is not the best practice. It might get the cut in the right place, or it might not, you will never know. I also find it highly unlikely that you compressed all of the foreshots and heads from 9 liters of low wines into 75 ml (3.5 oz) of distillate, regardless of how slow you ran it.

Please read my post few few times learn about my setup look over the net for actual eqipmen I have
maybe buy some like hot plate try duplicate what I did and you would understand.

I have been using an induction cooktop (my son's) for a couple of years. Personally I don't find much advantage to it, except that it seems to keep the kitchen a little cooler and the timer has come in handy a few times.

Guys:
lets think about it:
If you make a decent cut and air it for 24 hours during that time all voletile compounds would evaporate and I agree 100% with that, What can happen if we heat up product during spirit run to 64.6 Deg C for a longer time lets say 5 hours. All the bad stuf will evaporate similar to 24 hr in room temp for me it is the same.

PapaPro

Sorry, but I can't agree with anything in that statement. But whether I understand or not doesn't need to have any bearing on how you make liquor. If these procedures yield a product that you are happy with, then so be it. My concerns are only here so that those with less experience can see there is another point of view.

I sincerely hope that you will continue with your experiments and post the results here. Experimentation and open discussion are essential for our beloved hobby to continue advancing. I won't rain on your parade.

[papapro]

Skow :
the procentages I was talking about were from the book of Ian Smiley BSC book Making pure corn Whiskey
his calculatins and procentages are stated in that book as most of experienced member I go by taste and smell
the number I gave there were aproximete numbers do not go by that go by taste and smell.

I did this test for the reason If I could squeeze even more I was reading Der Wo and others on esters so I said
nothing to loose lets try that so I did it.

I am not trying to influance anyone on doing that or use my procedure I just did that test and it worked for me.
For my next runs I am planning to run that slow and take more notes to present it.

Skow believe me I am not the one to try to get into a fight but in my time many people told me that many think were imposible and I proved them wrong, I did recently a lot of reading on Arroyo research and his patent
I am thinking that could also apply to the tails.

Maybe I am crazy about it but I believe by doing so slow we might separate fores heads and congeners/esters
so my next plan is to collect slow and devide it in let say 10 to 20 ml sections and see what comes.

Profesional distillers take out fors and the rest goes to a barrel for 12 years to neutrilize the heads and other bad stuff , by doing so slow we might get rid of bad stuff earlier.

[Pikey]

Why not turn off the heater completely - just come back in a couple of years and see what junk you have left in the jug

[papapro]

I do not have couple of years

[Pikey]

I do not have couple of years

But you'll see the directionality of this conversation

[papapro]

After reareading my original post I would like to apologize to everyone for my mistake
I said At the 700W setting 350deg F in the boiler. I should write on the hotplate
[and] After that bitter taste and smell I adjusted cooling water much faster and the temp in the boiler for 220- 240 deg F and continued collecting at the thin pencil rate.
and I should write
After that bitter taste and smell I adjusted cooling water much faster and the temp On the plate for 220- 240 deg F and continued collecting at the thin pencil rate.

In the future I will be more careful with my statments but in this case I wanted to share my findings.
Once again my apology.
Regards
Papapro

[Danespirit]

No worries, friend.
Everyone can make mistakes, but it takes a real man to admit them.
Respect to you..and for your courage.