Stripping run cuts

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Who all makes cuts during your stripping run on a pot still?

What's your protocol?

What differences have you noticed in the end product?

[zed255]

I draw fores nice and slow at the start of a stripping run. I believe this really reduces the fores and early heads on my spirit runs.

With a sugar wash I don't go too deep on the strip to limit the nasty tails. With a flavoured wash / mash / beer I go deeper to hopefully grab late flavours that might be interesting in the final blend.

[NZChris]

Depends what I'm making. Sugar wash ain't whiskey, ain't rum, ain't brandy, ain't fruit, etc. and within all of them I''ll run differently depending on the style I'm aiming for.

What are you making?

[StillerBoy]

Who all makes cuts during your stripping run on a pot still?

I guess a better question would be why make cuts on a stripping run..

For one, a pot still is not will design for doing cuts or compressing for making cuts..

The low volume abv of a wash/mash if really not beneficial for making cuts..

The nature of how a pot run does not encourage cuts, as all four component are all mixed in the run..

Just a few thoughts on the matter..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

within all of them I''ll run differently depending on the style I'm aiming for.

If I read it right, it would imply that you use different power energy setting, in other word, run the stripped either slower for flavor and go deeper in the overall average, and faster for neutral and not go as deep overall..

If so, those are not cuts..

Mars

[NZChris]

That's why I didn't use the word 'cuts'.

[StillerBoy]

That's why I didn't use the word 'cuts'.

Thanks.. that why I wanted to point it out.. most stiller's don't understand how the use of power can make a different in the end product in stripping, not cuts..

Mars

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Who all makes cuts during your stripping run on a pot still?

I guess a better question would be why make cuts on a stripping run..

2 reasons I can think of,

-To decrease the amount of undesired volatiles smearing into the kept fraction of the spirit run. Or in other words, increase the hearts.

-To promote and nurture the esterification that happens during distillation. (This later one is something I understand very little)

Also, I'd argue that because of the nature of pot distillation, the art of making good cuts is even more imperative.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Depends what I'm making. Sugar wash ain't whiskey, ain't rum, ain't brandy, ain't fruit, etc. and within all of them I''ll run differently depending on the style I'm aiming for.

What are you making?

Then tell me about the ones in which you find making cuts during the stripping run to be beneficial.

And why?

[Hillbilly Popstar]

From my reading, making cuts during the first distillation is common amongst scotch makers.

I'm wondering if any bourbon, rum, and brandy distillers find the practice beneficial as well.

This article is the one which has my curiosity peaked:
https://www.bostonapothecary.com/from-f ... de-simple/

[StillerBoy]

To decrease the amount of undesired volatiles smearing into the kept fraction of the spirit run. Or in other words, increase the hearts.

There is a difference between low wine and spirit.. in a strip run pot mode, if one does the fores at a drop rate, and do the same for the head section, and discarded them, then I guess they would end up with less heads.. but there will also be a lost of flavor, and a higher cost in running time, when the same can be done in reflux column run for spirit..

In a strip run pot still mode, you can not control the amount of undesirable from smearing into the low wine by making cuts like a reflux column can.. you only have control of the amount of energy used and duration of run during the process.. and by controlling the power used and the duration of the run, those are the only tools available to impact the result of the low wine..

If you are after flavor or more of it, you may want to look into how to control the power usage and the duration of the run.. that in turn will provide you the opportunity to create a better finish product.. this process has been documented many time here..

Mars

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Even in strip mode, whilst running as hard and fast as you can, it stands to reason that the early distillate contains a higher percentage of heads and the late distillate contains more tails.

Just cause there is more smearing than is occurring during a spirit run, doesnt mean that the distillate doesn't still change throughout the run.

It stands to reason that if you cut a slightly larger portion than a regular foreshots portion you'll end up with less heads smearing throughout your hearts on the spirit run.
Likewise, if you were to slow down and catch a jar of tails that contains a lot of fusel oils, you cant count on those not showing up during the spirit run either.

I am looking to see if anyone has actually practiced this and been able to meet a larger or more high quality hearts cut during the spirit run.

Mars, did you happen to peruse the article I shared above? It's not as if I am making all this up. Apparentlynuts a common practice for distillers aiming to net certain styles and flavors.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Btw, I am not suggesting that it's possible to cut all of the heads or the tails during a spirit run. So if that's what you think I am getting at, I think you may have misunderstood me. Sorry if I wasnt more clear.

[NZChris]

Depends what I'm making. Sugar wash ain't whiskey, ain't rum, ain't brandy, ain't fruit, etc. and within all of them I''ll run differently depending on the style I'm aiming for.

What are you making?

Then tell me about the ones in which you find making cuts during the stripping run to be beneficial.

And why?

What? You want me to write up a treatise on everything I do just in case you might happen to want to do one of them one day? It's never gonna happen.

And no, I don't do 'cuts' on a stripping run. I take a foreshot, or not, depending on what I'm making, then shut down when I have collected the low wines I want for what I'm making.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Depends what I'm making. Sugar wash ain't whiskey, ain't rum, ain't brandy, ain't fruit, etc. and within all of them I''ll run differently depending on the style I'm aiming for.

What are you making?

Then tell me about the ones in which you find making cuts during the stripping run to be beneficial.

And why?

What? You want me to write up a treatise on everything I do just in case you might happen to want to do one of them one day? It's never gonna happen.

And no, I don't do 'cuts' on a stripping run. I take a foreshot, or not, depending on what I'm making, then shut down when I have collected the low wines I want for what I'm making.

No, I just figured you were smart enough to just include whatever might be relevant.

Would have been a whole lot easier to just say no from the start.

I should have clarified that I meant cuts, other than the usual foreshots in my OP. I guess i thought that was obvious.

I swear, sometimes getting a conversation started around here is like pulling teeth.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Btw, I am not looking to make anything specific.

I am looking to better understand the overall concept so I may know when and if it could be of use with any of the various styles I like to make.
Also looking for criticism or conformation of the practice from those who have studied it and/or tried it.

[NZChris]

When I'm making something I've never made before, I research that. Never mind all the other stuff, my research is focussed on the product I want. When that job is done, I move on to the next one.

That way, I'm only pulling one tooth at a time.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Maybe just check out the article.
Then you'll at least see where I am coming from.

You dont even have to agree with the practice, I'm not even sure I do, havent really tried it yet. But at least you'll see I am not just making shit up. Although, theres not really anything wrong with that either, as long as you're not flailing around in the dark.

[NZChris]

Look up graphs of components that come over in a spirit run. Heads components start high and finish low, tails components start low and finish high, but the amounts in the original charge affects the levels through the entire run. You can have some control over them by how much of these components you leave in, or remove from, the low wines when doing the strip. Use that control when creating your products.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Look up graphs of components that come over in a spirit run. Heads components start high and finish low, tails components start low and finish high, but the amounts in the original charge affects the levels through the entire run. You can have some control over them by how much of these components you leave in, or remove from, the low wines when doing the strip. Use that control when creating your products.

How is this different from making cuts? Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you just described and suggested making cuts during a stripping run.

[jonnys_spirit]

Just because you might make a low wines cut on a strip doesn’t mean you have to throw it away lol. What about cutting LW about 50/50 with feints and hearts (sure it’ll be smeared) so you then collect two different LW profiles for two different pot spirit runs?

Cheers,
Jonny

[still_stirrin]

How is this different from making cuts? Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you just described and suggested making cuts during a stripping run.

He already told you:

And no, I don't do 'cuts' on a stripping run. I take a foreshot, or not, depending on what I'm making, then shut down when I have collected the low wines I want for what I'm making.

....Heads components start high and finish low, tails components start low and finish high, but the amounts in the original charge affects the levels through the entire run...

You can have some control over them by how much of these components you leave in, or remove from, the low wines when doing the strip. Use that control when creating your products.

So, the amount of heads in the low wines can be controlled by the size of (if taken) the foreshots. And the amount of the tails left in can be controlled by the %ABV of the low wines collection, or “when” the strip is shut down.

Also, if you pay attention to the recipe and how you ferment it, you can control the proportions of congeners present in the distiller’s beer to begin with, which affects the amounts of heads and tails you have to deal with during the stripping runs.

See, he already told you...if you’d just listen.
ss

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I am listening, but a larger fores cut is by any deffinition a heads cut.

So if there is reasoning behind how and where you increase the cut, that's the part I am trying to discuss here.

Also, you cant control tails by how deep you run the strip.
The reason is cause the late tails often contain the flavors and components you want, but the fusel oils that you might want to cut come over earlier.

There is also to consider, during a stripping run the abv is much lower than a spirit run. So certain unwanted oils and fatty acids will not go into solution in the low wines, whereas they will be much more difficult to sperate during a spirit run.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Just because you might make a low wines cut on a strip doesn’t mean you have to throw it away lol. What about cutting LW about 50/50 with feints and hearts (sure it’ll be smeared) so you then collect two different LW profiles for two different pot spirit runs?

Cheers,
Jonny

I like that idea. Then you can choose to blend them later, or not.

[StillerBoy]

Mars, did you happen to peruse the article I shared above? It's not as if I am making all this up. Apparentlynuts a common practice for distillers aiming to net certain styles and flavors.

I surely did read the article, and it's not a bad article for someone who has not expanded or wants to expand his knowledge of understanding on how to use a still or on the many possibilities of using a still.. but I think you missed this part in the article, and I quote: "One of my goals was to give an introduction to the topic and some general advice for distillers of low levels of involvement. Many of the ideas are speculative. I was hoping to shed light on the science just below the surface of many distilling rules of thumb."

His advise is very much in line to what I stated earlier.. plus the rest is a lot of ? ? ?

Mars

[NZChris]

Heads isn't a thing. Tails aren't a thing. Heads, hearts and tails are all made up of the same components, but in different amounts.

In my shed, heads is the name for the early distillate that didn't make the heart cut and I only get heart cuts from spirit runs. If you want to have a different definition in your shed, that's ok.

In my shed, I use the word 'cut' when talking about spirit runs, but I don't actually do cuts for most products I make, instead, I choose blends from the jars I've collected. I still use the word 'cut', but I know I really mean choosing a blend.

By taking fores, you can reduce components like ethyl acetate in the low wines. Whether, or not, or by how much you should do this, depends on your take on the product you are making. Removing the same sized foreshot from an apple strip that you might do for a whiskey is likely to be a mistake.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Ok, fine. If your really want to be so pedantic dont judge me for voicing my frustration.

The term cuts, comes from cutting a portion out of a run.
So anything that doesnt get in the "blend" is a cut.

Cutting during the stripping run can mean the same thing. The portions getting cut dont progress to the spirit run.

You can reduce the amount of volatiles that generally are responsible for the "heads" and you can also reduce the number of fussel oils.

What I am looking for is anyone who has done either of these with enough success to justify the effort.

Chris, you are one of the members here who is general helpful and least condescending. I do not know why you're being so obstinate now. The terminology I am using is normal on this board and I think your smart enough to know exactly what I mean. Furthermore, I am not making shit up. This is a practice done by other distillers. It may not be common, but it peaked my curiosity, so I am trying to learn if any of the respected members here have any experience with it. If you dont have personal experience with it, then why bother commenting?

So why are you being pedantic?

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Mars, did you happen to peruse the article I shared above? It's not as if I am making all this up. Apparentlynuts a common practice for distillers aiming to net certain styles and flavors.

I surely did read the article, and it's not a bad article for someone who has not expanded or wants to expand his knowledge of understanding on how to use a still or on the many possibilities of using a still.. but I think you missed this part in the article, and I quote: "One of my goals was to give an introduction to the topic and some general advice for distillers of low levels of involvement. Many of the ideas are speculative. I was hoping to shed light on the science just below the surface of many distilling rules of thumb."

His advise is very much in line to what I stated earlier.. plus the rest is a lot of ? ? ?

Mars

So you're saying that focusing on a healthy ferment and the controlling the nergy input of your strip and spirit runs renders cutting extra heads and fussel oils out of your low wines to be of no benefit?

[NZChris]

You can reduce the amount of volatiles that generally are responsible for the "heads" and you can also reduce the number of fussel oils.

What I am looking for is anyone who has done either of these with enough success to justify the effort.

Most of us have. Past and present members here have been successfully using stripping runs to make fine products for years and posting how they do it for our and your, benefit.

Try using the search function instead of holding out a spoon then dissing answers you don't like.

[StillerBoy]

Try using the search function instead of holding out a spoon then dissing answers you don't like.

ok you're saying that focusing on a healthy ferment and the controlling the nergy input of your strip and spirit runs renders cutting extra heads and fussel oils out of your low wines to be of no benefit?

Again.. you are failing to understand the article and what Chris is saying.. the main drift of the article was about how acidity affects the end result of the product.. read the article from that point of view..

So instead of passing judgement on all of us.. re-reading the article from a different point of view, as pointed out above..

You are correct in that it all start in a healthy fermenting environment, and I have stated many of times here in the forum.. but members don't want to recognize its important. then what you do after that is limited by your ability to understand how a still works..

Here's something for you to answer me on.. have you ever check the acidity of your low wine.. have ever check the acidity of you finished spirit.. well I have.. and it does create a different in the finish product when that is understood..

Mars