Rum Talk......

[LWTCS]

Glad your in it Kiwi.

maybe we can cut to the quick with more partispation.


Been sampling your last run?

Ran my last with the cm tool atop the short column. smells heavenly but a bit more,,,,,,,earthy than I prefer.
It's on oak for the next 3 months.

[kiwistiller]

Been sampling your last run?

The sun's barely over the yard arm, ya pushy bugger

Nah I'll cut and blend tonight. I like to give things a long airing. Smells good though, more than normal. Maybe the long total reflux period... Unless I can get my output down to 70->55% (unlikely, with the current gear at least), then all my refluxed rum will remain white. I don't like adding water.

[Austin Nichols]

After getting curious about my dunder pits fluffy carpet layer I decided to open the tap at the bottom of my drum to see what's going on, well to my surprise it was pretty clear and dark with a nice sweet smell.

The top layer looks all fukt up and has an oily looking film to it once I push the fluff aside, but I'm going to use some of the stuff out of the bottom in my boiler for the next run.

I had to chase some small flys out of it and seal the lid properly tho

Cheers.

ps. if anyones interested I'll take some pics in the morning of my dunder pit

[kiwistiller]

love to see some pics.

[Austin Nichols]

Well here it is.

I'm not sure what to think of the fury brown layer on top, it does look strange.

Does everyone elses look the same?

[LWTCS]

I have had 3 different molds.

That looks very similar to one of them.

[Liquid_Luv]

I am no expert, and most of what I have learned was from this site and the wealth of first hand knowledge that comes from experience... I thank the members of this site who have freely given of their time to share. So perhaps I can give back a little of my own... I have it on very good authority, a retired rum blender from the Appleton Estate in Jamaica, that the role of properly aged dunder in creating a full rum profile is second to none. Dunder goes through several stages before being ready, each stage does something different for the flavor. It is possible to control, or limit the stages to exact a more consistent and controlled flavor profile. Dunder, if left undisturbed for at least 6-8 months, depending on climate, will go through all the stages. First stage, initial infection... a white mold starts in multiple little colonies, eventually spreading to cover the entire surface... the mold eventually begins to turn blue, like in blue cheese... this mould eventually starts to sink... The Dunder is now left with a spicy heavy molasses smell, quite pleasant... this first bacteria has fed mostly on any traces of dead yeast as well as the unfermentable solids from the molasses... after this stage, the dunder could well be used in the boiler with first run spirits... a second bacterial infection starts to form, a brownish mushroom color, a bit musty in initial aroma... this bacteria supposedly feeds of the first bacteria as well as any remaining solids... this will eventually die and settle once there is nothing left to feed on, it now smells richly carmel, butter-pecan and banana... to maintain the dunder pit, fresh dunder must be added following the first or near the end of the second infection... if allowed to go to total completion, the flavor profile is exceptional IMHO and closely replicates the rich flavor of Jamaican rum... So, to perfect and standardize the flavor profile using aged dunder, it is imperative to maintain at least two pits, one in which fresh dunder gets added as available, another in which the dunder is allowed to go to completion. Myself personally, I have an issue with putting anything in my mouth that looked so disgusting at any time... so to assure total destruction of the bacterial cultures and save my priceless aged dunder... in the freezer it goes, for at least a week... then I defrost and store in glass gallons to be used when required.

I make a cheap wash 50% white sugar, inverted... 50% Molasses by fermentable weight (fermentable sugar weight is 60% using fancy)
I usually mash in one large starchy converted potato or two medium (prepared same way as when I make vodka) this gives a rich velvety mouth on the spirit that can not be duplicated with any grains or fruit... it is something unique and special about potatoes.

When ready, I do a strip run... what is left in the boiler, then goes 50 % into my dunder pit, 50% to start my next wash.
I air the spirit then store in glass for a few weeks, until I am ready to spend a day doing a final spirit run... nice and slow through a copper pot still.

After seperating the fractions, I blend, then air twice a day for 15 minutes with air stone for 5 days... then leave to age on alligator charred wood. I use two parts oak, one part sugar maple. I do not put any fruits or any other added herbs or spices at this point... only when finalizing do I concider adding a hint of extracts, home made of course... such as raisin, pepercorns, vanilla, etc...

[kiwistiller]

Wow, that's a hell of a first post. Welcome and glad to have you!

So my dunder pit looks exactly like austin's up there, a brown powdery coating. Would this be the second stage? If you aren't interested in blending for consistancy, is it nessesary to do the two pit thing?

I note that you don't add it to the ferment - it was my understanding that it was adding it to the ferment that causes all the yummy esters and so on to be produced?

[LWTCS]

Yeah thanks for chimming in.

So difficult to get a feel for this.

[HookLine]

Nice one, LL. Thanks for that.

[Liquid_Luv]

WoW!!! I am honoured… thank you gentlemen… my very first post and I’ve been welcomed by three very prominent members… feels like I’m gonna like it here.

Kiwistiller, I’ve enjoyed many of your posts… I feel like we’ve known each other for a great many moons. From the looks of austin’s pit… looks like second stage, only much less bloom to the mould colony… however, depending on natural air born spores, a pit may unfortunately never receive the first species of bacterial culture… so in fact it is possible to only receive the bacterial strain found in the secondary culture… this will still develop the banana and much of the caramel or at least the spicy molasses… this is still well worthy of the time and effort of maintaining a dunder pit.

In response to your question… “ I note that you don't add it to the ferment - it was my understanding that it was adding it to the ferment that causes all the yummy esters and so on to be produced?”

I haven’t been at it long enough… my understanding is that it only makes a noticeable difference only once the yeast colony has been cultured to the same wash for several generations… only then can the bacterial infection co-exist in an synergetic relationship with the yeast (live dunder culture only)… therefore producing the sought after benefits… but keep in mind, much of what the bacterial infection does, it will do in the dunder pit as well as in a wash... only advantage to doing this in the wash is that the flavours marry younger then get to age together... could go either way no? Not sure what % of marriages end in the D_ word... oops... didn't say that!!!
as well, I ferment to at least 14-15% abv… the bacteria can’t withstand that level of alcohol, 7-8% is about all it can handle… as well, when going that route, you want to let the bacteria keep doing it’s thing on the unfermentable sugars left in the wash ( molasses is only 60% fermentable by yeast), let it go complete, then settle out, 'bout 2-3 months…
so, I am currently working on building up my inventory of everything required to produce better than commercial spirits  Eventually I will do a few batches in that tradition… once I get the results, I will post… until I have confirmed two or more times… I don’t waste other people’s time with hearsay… just plain substantial facts from me.

[LWTCS]

am currently working on building up my inventory of everything required to produce better than commercial spirits

Thats pretty easy unless your spending dough on real top shelf.

Eventually I will do a few batches in that tradition… once I get the results, I will post… until I have confirmed two or more times… I don’t waste other people’s time with hearsay… just plain substantial facts from me.

Good luck to you for us all. Tough to confirm on two batches. Specially when comparing against rum made with dunder from a 40 year old pit.

Anicdotal (in this instance) works too.
Glad to have more of this rum speak.

[blanikdog]

Thanks LL for an extremely helpful post. I've always tried to stop the mould. Back to the drawing board.

[blind drunk]

That's a great post L_L, lots to digest. I have one question: how can the bacteria keep working in a 14-15% wash if it can't withstand a wash between 7-8%? I can't resolve this. Am I missing something that's starring me in the face Cheers, bd.

[kiwistiller]

he adds his dunder to the spirit run, not ferment, so it's not a drama for him. Thanks for the answer, LL, look forward to hearing more about your rum adventures.

[blind drunk]

I see. Cheers, bd.

[HookLine]

Bacteria can be used in either in the dunder, with Propionibacterium thoenii and Clostridium propionicum, according to Maza-Gomez, or in the ferment itself with Clostridium saccharobutyricum, according to Arroyo.

he adds his dunder to the spirit run, not ferment, so it's not a drama for him.

That's interesting. A while back I added 3-4 litres of plain vodka to 40 litres of dunder and then did a low wines run on it, and it carried a bunch of flavour out with it. So I was planning on adding it to the next rum spirit run.

LL. How do you cover the dunder container?

[kiwistiller]

actually I was wondering about that as well. Who covers their dunder pit? who doesn't? mine is in a tighthead drum, currently closed, but seems to be funking up nicely anyway.

[Liquid_Luv]

Blind Drunk... Kiwistiller nailed it... I haven't been infecting my washes with the dunder yet... when I do go that route, I will target 7% abv so as not to destroy the bacterial infection that will eventually finish consuming everything that the yeast fails to convert to alcohol... in the meanwhile, I've been adding my fully aged dunder to my first run spirit at least a day or two before I do my second and final spirit run.



Blanikdog, Bacteria is our friend, without it we would not be able to produce some of the finest cheeses, dry cured sausages, proscuito, yogurt, etc... bacteria does more for the creation of esters than yeast... I haven't gotten into whiskey yet... as much as I'd like to, just seems too complicated, and far too much waiting time to get to the quality I am used to drinking... however, I've read that many of the best whiskeys start with a bacterial infected wash... Bless the mould.



LWTCS, Although you are absolutely correct in stating...



Tough to confirm on two batches. Specially when comparing against rum made with dunder from a 40 year old pit.



...there is absolutely no way to compare with a 40 year old pit... especially if it has been properly maintained for so long... I just don't think that could be done though... the residual build up of fully digested solids from the molasses, would eventually form one hell of a compost heap over 40 years... I think they would have to be running several pits, and for the sake of consistency, innoculating fresh pits with vibrant old culture from mature pits... just a thought... I will try to find out more about this... As for Top Shelf... Nothing but!

[Liquid_Luv]

Bacteria can be used in either in the dunder, with Propionibacterium thoenii and Clostridium propionicum, according to Maza-Gomez, or in the ferment itself with Clostridium saccharobutyricum, according to Arroyo.

he adds his dunder to the spirit run, not ferment, so it's not a drama for him.

That's interesting. A while back I added 3-4 litres of plain vodka to 40 litres of dunder and then did a low wines run on it, and it carried a bunch of flavour out with it. So I was planning on adding it to the next rum spirit run.

Hookline, you are right on... and yes, by using my fully aged dunder in a second and final spirit run, the alcohol leaches all the wonderful esters from the dunder and they get carried over in the final spirit... basically it is equivalent to making an extract. Please note, I do combine my aged dunder with my first run spirit at least a day or two before I am going to do a run... I could combine it immediately after producing the first run and leave it together for weeks or months... in this manner nothing will ever spoil due to the high alcohol content of the mix... only problem is this is not something I'd want to drink, and to avoid accidentally doing so, I only blend them just before doing the final run.

[Liquid_Luv]

actually I was wondering about that as well. Who covers their dunder pit? who doesn't? mine is in a tighthead drum, currently closed, but seems to be funking up nicely anyway.

I cover mine... don't want to share it with flies and maggots, etc... I bought a tempered glass crock pot lid with a tiny vapor hole at Walmart that just happens to perfectly fit a 20 litre (5 US Gallon) white plastic pail... you could buy new paint pails and sterilize them with a little clorine and hot water. This is a cheap way of having more than one dunder pit and establishing more precise control.

[suburban hillbilly]

Hi Guys
I have a first gen and second generation pugis rum aging on oak with raisins and a little dried dates. I have read a little about adding a little orange or other citrus zest but am a not sure about quantity and definately don't want to balls it up at this point as it is smelling and starting to taste good. I would however like to get a citrus hint in there somehow.
I haven't gone down the thumper route yet but I think that along with a dunder pity might be my next port of call. I have a fair bit of dunder saved (over 20litres) and am just sourcing a suitable container.
All the best S H

[LWTCS]

I get my zest by useing a single sided (sorta fine) cheese grater to insure that I can remain pith free.

I use a single orange for about 3 liters of 60-65%

I jes love it.
You'll prolly need to find your own preference.

[suburban hillbilly]

Thanks for that LWTCS
Ive got 1litre at around 90% and another litre and a half at 82% which will have been aging for a month on the 6th of november might have to cut some down for the 5th of november as its bonfire night over here for us limey's.
Back to the orange zest do you bung it in as is or do you toast it a little to tease out the flavour a little? I also picked up some cassia bark on ebay today is this something you have come across before,its also refered to as chinese cinnamon it appears as a flavour ingredient on morgans spiced over here?
All the best S H

[LWTCS]

do you bung it in as is or do you toast it a little to tease out the flavour a little?

To date, I have only ever used fresh untorched/uncooked/untoasted zest.

Blind Drunk torched a bit last night, so maybe in a few days he can comment more specifically.

Also I have only ever use white American Oak.

Think Kiwi and blanik may have a few other woods in service?

[suburban hillbilly]

Thanks LWTCS
I'll keep my eye on the threads to see what the results are.
All the best S H

[Beerswimmer]

Also I have only ever use white American Oak.

Think Kiwi and blanik may have a few other woods in service?

I have used several and found that to me toasted French oak is superior.

[Barney Fife]

I like charred maple or birch(birch is more "smokey") for aging my rums. Both of these add more sweetness to the rum, while also adding plenty of complexity. Otherwise, I add nothing else, though I have tried raisins, vanilla bean, pepper corn, cinnamon sticks, and a few other things, but none of that ever "did it" for me. Oh, I'll add a little home made caramel and/or maple syrup to a bottle at cutting time, once in a while, just for a smoother feeling, for a 'neat' rum. I mostly mix my drinks, though.

[Liquid_Luv]

I like charred maple or birch(birch is more "smokey") for aging my rums. Both of these add more sweetness to the rum, while also adding plenty of complexity. Otherwise, I add nothing else, though I have tried raisins, vanilla bean, pepper corn, cinnamon sticks, and a few other things, but none of that ever "did it" for me. Oh, I'll add a little home made caramel and/or maple syrup to a bottle at cutting time, once in a while, just for a smoother feeling, for a 'neat' rum. I mostly mix my drinks, though.

WoW... another purist When it comes to rum... not talking spiced now... IMHO, real rum doesn't get dressed up with raisins and spice and everything nice... just well made, well cut n blended spirit, left to mature on toasted, charred wood... and yes, the Maple really adds a touch of sweetness and complexity found in the finest rums... tell us more... Do you use the rum oils? Some use Pugi's recipe and keep on recycling them through the final spirit runs... some add all or part of the fraction into the final blends then age... I am experimenting with both right now, but have no clear conclusion.

[Liquid_Luv]

IMHO, real rum doesn't get dressed up with raisins and spice and everything nice... just well made, well cut n blended spirit, left to mature on toasted, charred wood...

Just for the record... I am not trying to be snooty, or disrespect anyone here on the site, who over the years have many wonderful posts from which I have learned a great deal... and yes, I too have made rum with rasins and pineapple, cinamon, peppercorns,etc... I've tried just about every combination from so many posts... yes they have all made for interesting conversation with my drinking buddies... thanks... but after all is said and done, my personal taste has once again gone back to basics...

true rum, not spiced, not commercial swill, nothing but real spirit rum, cannot contain anything other than color derived from the woods it has aged on and the additional color from sugar sources such as caramel from burnt sugar, or molasses.

If you feel the need to add citrus or any other profile, that is fine... they do taste nice... you then technically have spiced or commercial spirit. Or, several of these flavors do carry over if added to the boiler in the final spirit run... as I do with dunder... you could add extracted infusions of orange, pineapple and spices and the hints of those flavors will come accross... leaving you with a purists version of a pure rum spirit.