Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby buflowing » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:26 am

Odin, regarding macerating grain, this is what I've done. I soaked approximately 1/4 cup of grain per 750ml of base UJ spirit for at least a week. I remove and discard the grain, then macerate the botanicals for 12 to 24 hours. I dilute with base UJ wash to 25 to 30%, toss all but the peel into the pot and run. The last batch I added 1/4 cup of fresh grain to the boiler (the spent grain is tasteless to me). For maceration, I used crystal malt and mallairdized rye malt. For the distilling on the grain I used the mallairdized rye and a little plain rye malt. I've run the barley and rye separately and together. So far, there seems to be a nice grain character in the product. I think it needs to age a bit to get a better picture.

On each batch, after stilling I've diluted half with water to 40 or so %. The other half I add a couple small pieces of toasted oak stave at 60 or so %. I have a feeling I don't want to go too long on wood, so I'll be watching to make sure it doesn't go too far.

Impressions: This stuff is instant gratification as it tastes marvelous right off the bat. Love this shit. Your original recommended dosing of juniper makes a juniper forward drink. I may end up mixing with white or aged UJ to get the level I'm looking for. Halving the juniper as you later recommended might be about right, but I have not diluted it yet. After discarding the first 20ml, I've learned to keep the next 20 to 40ml collected off the still separate from the rest. There is a lot of juniper in there that can be added back as needed for fine tuning. I've noticed that the wood tones down the juniper as well.

Overall, I'm sold. I think your recipe is spot on. I may start taking some of my UJ aging in jugs to continue my experiments. Hee Haw.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Odin » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:24 am

Glad to hear it works out fine for you!

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Pissedfart » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:50 am

Odin wrote:Anyway, that's what the Dutch did. Still, wood ageing is not so important. Nothing like what you see in single malt whisky: the longer the better.

BTW, can it be that the English took rum as their "sailing" likker? Just remembering some English stories about sailors drinking rum all the time.

Odin.



Hi Odin,

We Brits took both Gin and Rum on our Naval Ships. Plymouth Gin at Naval strength 57% was supplied to all newly commissioned ships in the form of a Commissioning Kit. See link;

http://www.staceyauction.com/Auction-Detail_9307

Gin and Rum were mixed with lime juice to help prevent scurvy. During our occupation of India, Gin was mixed with Indian Tonic Water to combat the bitter taste of the Quinine, which is a antimalarial medicine.
This was the birth of the G & T, which quickly increased in popularity and is why lime is also the traditional accompaniment.

So next time you go fishing or sailing, don't forget you two bottles of Gin, tonic and lots of limes.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Odin » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:19 am

Thanks for the update! Last time I went fishing ... was just a week and a half ago. With GA Flatwoods. We had a great time, but changed the gin & lime for beer. It was something like 90 degrees F, so beer made sense.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Candleworks » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:23 am

Glad I found this thread.

Oude Genever is also the way I am heading as soon as my still arrives.

Got interested in genever during a trip to Amsterdam last year. Did some research at the time but cant find the site again.

It mentioned that Oude Genever or Korinwijn (can't remember which one but I suspect it was the latter) was made by distilling from an all grain mash containing equal parts barley, wheat and rye to around 40%.
Then splitting it in 3 parts. 1 part gets distilled to around 60% and 1 part gets distilled with a lot juniper berries. The last part kept at 40%.

Then it is blended together to the required ABV% and the desired juniper flavor, before aged in barrels.

What the your opinion on this approach?
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Candleworks » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:47 am

Sorry previous post full of mistakes.

Finally found the site again.

The grain bill includes barley, corn and rye. Not wheat.

And the method they discribe is as follow:
It is distilled 3 times to about 45%, so called Maltwine.

The maltwine is split into four different volumes.

One volume remains as is pure maltwine
The second volume is redistilled in a small potstill which has been loaded with Juniperberries.
The third part will be re-distilled in order to reach 75% alcohol (abv).
The fourth part will be re-distilled with a mixture of various botanicals.

The 4 parts is then blended together and not needed to be aged.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Odin » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:31 pm

That sounds ... like a very Dutch approach, Candle!

Keep us posted!

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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby srpompon » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:33 am

Odin, Thank you for teaching us...

I other post about gin you say about Hot compounding "Problem is that you can make the mistake by distilling too long. Herbs that stay too hot for too long will give other off tastes." can please explain this? is better a fast run when the botanicals in the still?

Thanks,

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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby The Baker » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:52 am

seems logical; in the same way vegetables (which are plants like herbs) taste quite different when they are overcooked.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby srpompon » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:04 am

The Baker wrote:seems logical; in the same way vegetables (which are plants like herbs) taste quite different when they are overcooked.
Geoff


but how fast you can run 2 liters? in my setup 3 hours aprox (is a small one laboratory setup) in a big setup you cook the botanicals at least 8 hours!

Thanks,

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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby der wo » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:16 am

I think it's more like this:
When you have distilled a while, the most of the good flavors are in the spirit container and more and more bad tastes come over. So you have to stop here. Regardless how long you cooked. It's more about the amount of vapor you produced than the duration it needed to evaporate it. If you need 2h to come to the cut point and have 1l product, it will not be possible to rise the heat next time and get in 2h 1.5l good product. You will get again 1h product, but after 1.5h. Fast or slow distilling is not related to "gentle distilling". Fast or slow is related to smearing, so fast or slow distilling has an effect on taste, but not because the herbs are overcooked.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby srpompon » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:47 am

Der wo:

gotcha... in my two first tests of the Odin recipe i cut the tails late and the gin have a taste like cooked oranges.... very very bad.. now in this one i cut at time and is toooo much better.
from 1.5l at 43% i obtain 550cm3 at 81% of very nice gin.

IMG_20161221_144003.jpg
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby as82 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:56 pm

Do you have a thermometer in your distillation head?

Vapor temperature is your best orientation. (after your nose of course :wink: )
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby srpompon » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:20 pm

as82 wrote:Do you have a thermometer in your distillation head?

Vapor temperature is your best orientation. (after your nose of course :wink: )


Yes i have one in the top, i stop at 87c this time... now the problem is wait 5 weeks to drink the Gin.

Tomorrow i do one run w/n botanical in the still.....
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Kareltje » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:20 pm

For what it is worth: I ran a gin with juniper in the boiler and ran it all until far in 100 degr C. The fluid I collected I kept still and after some time there appeared some spots of a sticky blueish/greenish droplets. Not enough to analyse or use it further, though.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Pikey » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:49 pm

srpompon wrote:
as82 wrote:Do you have a thermometer in your distillation head?

Vapor temperature is your best orientation. (after your nose of course :wink: )


Yes i have one in the top, i stop at 87c this time... now the problem is wait 5 weeks to drink the Gin.

Tomorrow i do one run w/n botanical in the still.....


Thermo at the top is good help in making cuts. BUT you need to know what is going on in your boiler as well.

I made that mistake when I first started and had a thermostat to shut down power when head temp got around what you're talking about.

Wrong ! All you are doing is wasting good ethanol !

The head temp goes up because you get a partial reflux in your column and the latent heat of vapourisation heats the head as the gas condenses. Now I run up very close to 100 deg C and I have run to 103.

The boiler temp was still only just bove 90 deg C.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby der wo » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:25 am

Pikey wrote:The head temp goes up because you get a partial reflux in your column and the latent heat of vapourisation heats the head as the gas condenses. Now I run up very close to 100 deg C and I have run to 103.

The boiler temp was still only just bove 90 deg C.

The temp goes down because of partial reflux. When the mash is 90°C and the vapor is 100°C, something is wrong. Probably the vapor thermometer is wrong. When a mash boils at 90°C, it has 16% alcohol. The vapor will have 90°C too and 64% alcohol. Unless there is reflux. Then the vapor at the highest point will have a lower temp and a higher abv.
Distill once water. I think it will measure 110°C instead of 100°C.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Odin » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:26 am

Your English isn't bad at all Der Wo! I read the same but needed a cup of coffee before answering.

:thumbup:

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby sparky marky » Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:36 am

Gonna give this a go I think... sounds pleasant and Iv never tasted one before. Iv just ordered a bottle of bols white genever so I can see what all the fuss is about :wave:

I will probably start with a 60/40 barley malt/wheat malt all grain. Il strip it and run it through 4 plates and then split it into two jars:

1) nice clean hearts for a white genever

2) a jar with blended fractions done the normal way I would if I want to oak for 6-12 months.

For jar #1 botanicals I will probably go with:

5L at 30% whisky
25g juniper
12g coriander seed
3g Angelica root
5g orange zest
1g cinnamon stick
3g Orris root

Sound reasonable? It's much lighter on botanicals than I normally would go for gin.

Would i be best running the same recipe for the one I intend to oak for comparison or should I change it up?
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby sparky marky » Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:44 am

Just realised there's a third option...
I could oak a clean whisky for a short time (maybe 8 weeks) for the oaky flavour but no actual "aging".
Hmmm....
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby 65imp » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:17 am

I just ran a couple liters of this recipe this week. Is it recommended to oak afterward to get the color and increase the wood notes?
I know with the Gin I try to keep my hands off it for about a month to let the flavors improve. My plan was to do the same with the Genever, but while on toasted oak chips. But I don't see any mention of it here.
If I do oak, is it better to oak ata higher proof say 65% or dilute it down to the 41% mentioned for drinking first?
I already know it's good and would rather not mess it up! :D
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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Odin » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:55 am

Oaking afterwards is great. 50% for more vanilins, 65% for more tanine-like complexity.

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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Postby Bamaberry » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:09 pm

@odin I am ecstatic that I found this post! :crazy:
Want to give it a bump with some questions.
I want to do this as the second part of @Jimbo s Wheated Bourbon & Gumball "recipe"
I'll be starting with feints and wash of All Grain wheated mash.
Gumball directions are:

"Instead of dumping that pile of squeezed out spent grain (and goo from the bottom of the settling buckets) in the compost (like I used to do! ugh) cook up 16 lbs of sugar with 2 gallons of the backset from the stripper run above and 10 gallons water. Cool and pour over the spent grain. There's plenty yeast embedded in the grain so no need for more yeast. This baby will start up quick and ferment out fast, 1.061 to 1.000 in 4 days."

I have a 5 gallon copper pot with thumper & worm. I am thinking I'll have 10-12 gallons or more of wash to do about 3-4 single runs with feints in the thumper. Then using the hearts for the ??whatever!!. From ALL my runs I should have enough to do at least one more head/tails in a true spirit run. That should be closer to a neutral to compare to the single runs.

Gentlemen, I'd love suggestion on best practice to implement this..
One other thing. End of May, I did a 3-4 gallon sugar wash with invert & Hawaiian Punch. It has been sealed in a bucket, still red but settled clear with a dry fruity taste.
I REALLY want to add this with backset into my fermenter to see where it takes me. Can I just add more invert or HPunch to come up to 10 gallons and let it be fermenting? Or should I wait, add this to the backset and top off with sugar/water and let that all finish fermenting then?

I would really appreciate suggestions for this!
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