Washes forgotten on lees = Best Brandy, Rum, whiskey… ???

[Liquid_Luv]

I’ve been actively participating in one of the best threads I have read on the topic of rum making [ Re: Rum Talk… ] …

Started by LWTCS a short 3 months ago, already having one of the highest total replies in the category “Recipe Development”… covering various washes, the use of Dunder [Backset to you Whiskey mavericks], Dunder Pits and the incorporation of Infected Dunder into washes…

Recently a very interesting issue has come to light, and I am really interested to hear from any and all members that would be kind enough to share firsthand experience [No Hearsay please] that could shed more light on the pros and cons of allowing fully fermented dry washes to age on the lees for several months prior to stillin…

I would like to hear results covering all different kinds of spirits and would greatly appreciate remaining 100% focussed on the topic.

Although I would like to keep it simple straight forward and as informative as possible… and hopefully it could even be fun… It would be great if members could format their initial post something like…

“Corn whisky wash, rested 6 months on lees, strip run, then spirit run using pot still… then details of your results and opinions as to quality, etc… Prior to and after aging if possible”.

Here is a quote on page 8 of “Rum Talk…” go have a look to get a feel of what’s the big deal…

“Picky is a good thing... that is how we get what we want in life...

if resting on lees is good enough for many of the premier wines, best brandies and Cognacs... and S&S's apple brandy...

well then concidering both your old batch as well as my old batch seemed to be one of the better runs we've had... well maybe just maybe the best kept secret to the best rums of all is good old fashion patience...

I'd love to hear from some of our esteemed whiskey makers as to whether or not they have had similar experiences in running washes that have been left forgotten on lees for many months prior to stillin???”

[Liquid_Luv]

I had a 23 l (5 imp gal) Fancy Molasses Rum wash that was hiding in my cold cellar for well over 8-9 months... it was sitting on lees all that time, and the wash was so clear you could see right through it like a perfect black crystal with redish amber tones when poured into a glass. It had a nice balanced smell, and actually tasted very nice... like a top shelf wine with a decidedly molasses note. I tasted this one as it wasn't made with infected dunder and all was quite sterile from start to finish.

I ran her hard and fast through my pot still and finished up with just over 8 liters of low wines [avg 45- 50% abv] in 3 hours... the remaing dunder smelled even better than usual and I saved all of it into a fresh new pit, rather than recycling into a new wash. Roughly half way through, I pulled off 100 ml at 65% abv of true middle run hearts, fresh off the still, it was sweeter and tastier than normal [ this batch was made with 3rd generation yeast (EC-1118)and recycled non aged dunder off a 2nd generation strip run ].

Although I don't think any commercial distilleries actually allow their product to settle and age on lees such as a wine... perhaps there is something positive to be said about making a common practice of this. Maybe, it is just the total lack of yeast going into the boiler as a result of 100% of them settling out that makes the difference rather than an aging factor... either way, I was impressed with the results enough to try to recreate them with a few new batches... I plan to document the results, trying different time frames, using identical wash recipes.

Cheers!

[Liquid_Luv]

Wow... been almost a week an not a single member has anything to add??? Well, as I believe this to be a rather important issue, I will take some time every now and then, to find more compelling evidence to support this rant... perhaps eventually others may try, then experience, then share their stories... here is an excellent example form one of our esteemed Whiskey stillers... thanks BF...

Apparently, rum dunder isn't the only thing we can save up and "age" with bacteria/fungus and what-not.

Earlier this year, like, in June, I ran two generations from a 50/50 malt barley/corn wash, the second re-using all the backset from the first run, but with sugar added back, along with water to make up what was taken from stillin', over the grains in the second wash. I saved the backset, after the second run, in a clean bucket as I wanted to do my usual 5-6 generations, but one thing lead to another, and it became obvious I wouldn't have time to get back to it, so I screened out the grains, tossed them(and fattened up the birds), but kept the backset, thinking I'd see if it was usable when I did find time for it.

Well, I found time last week, and carefully, gingerly(I was fully prepared for an ugly sight and uglier smell!) pried the air-locked lid off the bucket. Whoa! There was a solid, white layer of "something" covering the backset, but no foul odor at all. Carefully, I gave it a light stir, and under this funky layer was very clear backset, slightly sour in aroma, but not "garbage-like" nor "puke-like", either of which would have had me tossing both backset and bucket. This had promise! So I poured it into my boiler, and took it to a hard boil, and held it there for a while(using my reflux column to knock-back the vapor and odor so to not lose anything), and added one pound of wheat germ after shutting her down. Next morning, it all went back into a clean pail, along with 5lbs sugar and roughly a cup of trubs(yeast cake) from an ale I made a while back.

SG at 1.050

Damn! Within a few hours, I had a thick cap, and now a few days later, she's done, and smells good enough to pass for beer. HA! It'll be 5-6 days before I can run it, but I'm so impressed that a "dead" backset could be revived so nicely and easily I had to post this. For everyone who tosses their backsets/dunder/grains or are overly concerned with infections, or think "I have to run the wash as soon as it's done", I say re-think it all. Don't waste the flavors you've worked hard to acquire. Save them, re-use. This isn't beer-making; we can boil the old/infected/backset and use it to start a new wash, successfully, not matter how deeply infected it became. As long as it doesn't smell like puke or garbage(I* think whatever it is that creates those odors can't be good!, but something that creates a pleasant odor can't be bad), I think it's good to go.

I'll definitely report what she's like when I run 'er, but I fully expect a rather nice, full flavored "sugarhead whiskey", if not an exceptional one.

Here's hoping to hear from others

[Liquid_Luv]

Well, I've found more...
Slow & Steady is one of our resident Apple Brandy aficionados... he double runs his aged on lees washes nice and slow through his pot still for maximum flavors...

Flavor and fruity nose have never been a problem for me but I do bulk age my apple wine on the lees for a year or more so I'm not sure how it would be if I distilled my apple wine right after clearing.
S&S

S&S, Makes me wish you'd experiment with a small run right after clearing, just so you could tell us if there really is a noticeable difference in quality acquired by waiting patiently... I think there is... just IMHO

[Liquid_Luv]

Remembered reading a post on Corn Mash Whiskey... below a quote from a well respected member...

most of the "old recipes" did not care about infections that just added to the "character"

Hears hopin to hear more of that wisdom... Cheers!

[LWTCS]

Ok sorry for day dreaming. Don't know how I missed this thread?
So, I'll prattle on for a minute hoping to make a point.

So recently, Blind Drunk introduced me to one of those forums that tastes and evaluates all kinds of likker. They have a rum forum.

And so they use all these discriptor words to describe what they are tasting. One of these discriptor words Is: "rancio"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancio#R" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The wikki describes rancio by using a wine for the example. But I have also read reviews that talk about a rancio quality wiskey (ie) rums and so forth posses.
It is my understanding that the rancio quality is more typically found in the much older likkers.

At first I was thinking the wood boilers at the Pusser facility in conjunction with the use of a pretty old dunder pit was exclusively responsible for this,,,,,rancio profile with the Pusser product. Along with the temp changes noted in the wikki definition.

But I have also read that some of the younger (relatively speaking) likkers can display this "rancio" note.

So to bring this thing on topic,,,.. Ya gotta believe that if aged dunder can be benificial then certainly aged wash, or even low wines for that matter would at the very least not be a bad thing.
I would love for someone to confirm that this iconic and coveted rancio profile can be enhanced/achieved by aged wine/beer.

[myles]

I have a batch of rum wash that is clearing. I racked it out of the fermenter into carboys in March 2010 and each one now has a layer of settled lees. I am just waiting for an opportunity to strip it. Will let you know how it turns out when I run it.

[Liquid_Luv]

Thanks Myles... looking forward to hear your results.

Just got to ask... is this how you normally treat your wash/runs? If not, looking to more to hear the percieved differences if any. Thanks for sharing.

[Liquid_Luv]

OK, get ready... here comes another long winded L_L post

But I have also read that some of the younger (relatively speaking) likkers can display this "rancio" note.

So to bring this thing on topic,,,.. Ya gotta believe that if aged dunder can be benificial then certainly aged wash, or even low wines for that matter would at the very least not be a bad thing.
I would love for someone to confirm that this iconic and coveted rancio profile can be enhanced/achieved by aged wine/beer.

Very interesting line of thought… I have some ideas on that, but before I take off on it, it may help folks get a better understanding of what on God’s earth is a “Rancio Profile”

“Rancio” wad once thought to be the exclusive, illusive domain of fruit based wines and spirits that after barrel aging under certain conditions would produce this coveted profile. The profile has since been chemically identified and confirmed to exist in not only fruit based wines and brandies, but in fine Old Whiskeys as well as many Rums.

The rancio profile is not well defined by most, as rather than being very specific, it means similar yet different things to many folks… the profile may perhaps be best described by the likes of… really good old aged classic Balsamic Vinegar, or even similar to Kikkoman light Soy Sauce… Portobello mushrooms sautéed in real butter, etc…

As per a veteran pro taster…

Rancio is a desirable flavor in well-aged fruit-based brandies, but it's very hard to define. I read somewhere that it's an "earthy, cheesy, mushroomy" flavor. Personally, I would add soy sauce to that list, but it's a flavor that, until you've tasted it a few times, is hard to understand.
Nation's Restaurant News, July 17, 2000 by Gary Regan

But the bottom line, and the origin of the description comes from Rancio Wines… Rancio is a type of wine popular throughout Spain and Southern France… buy a bottle of Madeira or Marsala Wine… smell it, taste it… that is Rancio! That taste is common place in the finest old brandies and cognacs… yes, quite prominent as well in Pusser’s 15 year old “Red Label” Navy Rum… good shit that is indeed!

Excellent read: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_63693748" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And another… http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15058007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Now following this extended edification… my take on this is as follows…

I am still not too sure if pre-aging a fermented wash, or aging on lees, will have any effects on producing the chemical profiles discovered in association with this profile or not… or even speed aging through oak and oxidation as in the Madeirization techniques used to produce Rancio Wines… or just good old long term barrel aging… 25 - 30+ years on average…

On a positive note... I have noticed the aromatic profiles of “Rancio” in my Fully Aged Dunder [Aged to absolute completion]… although I have never sent samples to analyze for the chemical compounds associated with the Rancio Profile… but you got me thinking and I intend to do quite a bit more research on this one… thanks for bumping up my workload Larry!!!

[blind drunk]

I read somewhere that it's an "earthy, cheesy, mushroomy" flavor.

OMG I have a winner then?

[Liquid_Luv]

I read somewhere that it's an "earthy, cheesy, mushroomy" flavor.

OMG I have a winner then?

You may just be onto somethin... not sure what just quite yet ...
but hold onto that thought [and forget about it until at least next spring]

[myles]

Thanks Myles... looking forward to hear your results.

Just got to ask... is this how you normally treat your wash/runs? If not, looking to more to hear the percieved differences if any. Thanks for sharing.

Short answer is yes. I tend to ferment mostly fruit and honey for both drinking and stilling in the autumn. these then get racked off and left to clear over the winter months. I have had hedgerow wines sitting on the lees in the cold for 12 monhs before now - just because I was too busy to do anything with them.

I have some elderflower that has been racked off on a fine film of lees for 2 years, because I don't know what to do with it. It is too floral to drink on its own and I mostly blend it to lift other blander stuff.

[beelah]

I have my two bits to add and in response to

But the bottom line, and the origin of the description comes from Rancio Wines… Rancio is a type of wine popular throughout Spain and Southern France… buy a bottle of Madeira or Marsala Wine… smell it, taste it… that is Rancio! That taste is common place in the finest old brandies and cognacs… yes, quite prominent as well in Pusser’s 15 year old “Red Label” Navy Rum… good shit that is indeed!

What I think you are tasting is I believe is as a result of some oxidation of the wine/spirit whih makes some sense. As in the case of the Maderai and Marsala are the not made in the same way as sherry, as sherry in made in the presence of Oxygen and high temps? THis I understand give sherrry that distictive flavour.

[Liquid_Luv]

What I think you are tasting is I believe is as a result of some oxidation of the wine/spirit whih makes some sense. As in the case of the Maderai and Marsala are the not made in the same way as sherry, as sherry in made in the presence of Oxygen and high temps? THis I understand give sherrry that distictive flavour.

Madeira is made by aging the wine in oak casks in the sun... hence heat, oxygen and oak... that is the Spanish way of creating Madeira.. and the Rancio Profile. Get with the program and read previous posts before spitin at it...

beelah, sorry, but I am havin a hard time tryin to figure out what you are gettin at???

[Liquid_Luv]

I have some elderflower that has been racked off on a fine film of lees for 2 years, because I don't know what to do with it.

Send it my way... I know exactly what to do with it...

Stil it buddy... let us know the results... it will always blend well if it isn't the perfect profile of what you like to drink.

[Liquid_Luv]

Sorry folks... I think we are getting off topic with this whole `Rancio Profile``... it is a topic all unto itself.

The topic at hand is simply, what are the results of allowing a wash to rest for several months on lees... is it beneficial or not... `Rancio Profiles`are best discussed under ``AGING``

[Dnderhead]

my opinion,, leaving rum on lees can be beneficial.i believe yeast produce diacetyl (23 butanedione)
this is reabsorbed by the yeast as the ferment continues, now if you leave the wash on the lees long enough
the yeast start to decompose and again release diacetyl,this is gives a "butter" flavor,the right bacteria can also
cause this.as can high temperature.now this mite be good in rum but i don't thank i want butter flavored scotch or bourbon.
now some of the higher/lower alcohols change to flavors when mixed with acids from the oak.this takes
some time and that is part of ageing.this is said to take about 3years. this can be "hurried" by heating?
but then you would not want to heat your liquor to much.but that explains why liquor ages sooner in hot climate.

[LWTCS]

Sorry folks... I think we are getting off topic with this whole `Rancio Profile``... it is a topic all unto itself.

The topic at hand is simply, what are the results of allowing a wash to rest for several months on lees... is it beneficial or not... `Rancio Profiles`are best discussed under ``AGING``

Yes yes good point. Rancio is just the by product of my thinking. Aging is really where my thoughts are heading.

Was wondering when Dunder was gonna open his lock box

[beelah]

hey LL no problem...what i was just suggesting is that I was trying to give some meaning to the flavour that is then Rancino profile....I think I understand and all I was adding was what others who have made wine and it has been exposed to heat, oak and/or Oxygen which those who have may know what this flavour may be similar too. Could be wrong but it is just a thought.

[Liquid_Luv]

hey LL no problem...what i was just suggesting is that I was trying to give some meaning to the flavour that is then Rancino profile....I think I understand and all I was adding was what others who have made wine and it has been exposed to heat, oak and/or Oxygen which those who have may know what this flavour may be similar too. Could be wrong but it is just a thought.

Hey "B"...

No need to be sorry for anything... you brought up a good point...

I was just trying to pull this thread back to it's original topic...

My friend LWTCS added an interesting thought about "Ranci Profile"... but as it started to unfold... and as I started going with the flow so to say, I realized his was a whole new topic just waiting to get a "talk about" so I have moved it over to "Aging & Flavor"

... if you would like to continue on the topic of "Rancio Profile" go have a look and join in on that one. This thread is simply about resting on lees for some time prior to stillin. Thanks!

Cheers!!!

[Liquid_Luv]

Rancio is just the by product of my thinking. Aging is really where my thoughts are heading.

Deny it till yer very last breath... That seems to have worked for most Presidents [Past and Present ]

Was wondering when Dunder was gonna open his lock box

Well sure glad he has... Dunder, Thanks for weighing in... your points are sharp

[Dnderhead]

when thanking of diacetyl thank of microwave popcorn,popcorn at movie theaters.

[blind drunk]

You know, leaving on lees for an extended period of time might be part of the rancio process. Beelah could be onto something. I just know that my extended wash seemed to have a very unique flavor, buttery and a little lactic. There's a certain something that's unusual, in a good way, not like the cheesy tar I recently made. Who the hell knows anyway

bd

[ArkyJ]

When I first started distilling I was also making wine. I had a grape and rasberry wash that for some reason didn't taste all that great. I left it setting under the stairs for over a year and finally the housemate said it was time to get rid of it. I moved it out to the shed (I hate to throw things away). The airlock went dry and the wasps blocked up the airlock with a nest. Sat in the shed for over two years. When my toy still showed up, I used part of that to clean still and the other half to run. As I said before. It was the mostest, bestest, blind ass begainners luck to what turned out. I was tickled pink! I would put that brandy up against any brandy made by whomever.

Wish my whisky tasted half as good.

ArkyJ

[Liquid_Luv]

This taken from another really good thread on pretty much the same subject, only just dedicated to whiskey,,, see "AGED" backset whiskey http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=18167

I finally got to run this wash last night.

Nice! The white dog has a very nice, distinct "spicy" note to it. Biggest surprise is how little heads and tails I collected VS how much I kept as hearts. Not sure if the infected backset made for fewer higher alcohols or whatever, but the head were not strong to the nose and after roughly 700 ml, I was definitely into the hearts. Could have been into the hearts sooner, but I wasn't expecting then yet. Ran it with the pot still, at 1500 watts(nice and slow). Then collected 2 full quarts(quit at 50%ABV) before cranking up the power and collecting the tails.

Gonna dump the backset back over the trubs today, add 10lbs sugar and see if I can't get another one from it. Glad I tried this!

[xjrockstomper]

I have 15 gallons of SWF (sweet feed) that i am not going to have time to run and air out before I leave on the 26. I am thinking of giving this a try but am unsure of what lees are. I am thinking they are all the grains sitting on the bottom of the fermentor? What would be a good way to try this? Should I just move it someplace cool, leave the airlock on, and let time do the rest? What say you guys?
Ben

[ArkyJ]

XJ.
It's like a toyota. You asked for it. You've got it.
You have answered your own questions. Shove it in the closet. Make sure the air lock is full. When you get back or however long you wait. Should be clear.
ArkyJ

[xjrockstomper]

Thats what i had planned on doing so awsome. I will let you guys know how this tastes compared to my other SWF.
Ben

[Liquid_Luv]

Well I really have a chance to get first hand info on this one...

Luv has just realized a small windfall…
In one of my smaller villas in Apulia a town in the Adriatic region of Italy, one of my caretakers told me, he regrettably realized that we had over 6,000 gallons of “Moscato di Trani” that had only been primary racked and forgotten on the lees since 2,006…

He was uncertain what we could do with it as it no longer qualified with our export standards… Wow… just shoot me …

I told him, write it off, and just leave it be… I’ll deal with it when I get there. Way I see it… this might just be the best shot any of my vineyards ever had to compete with $150 per litre Moscati Grappa made by Poli … [6,000 gallons at 13% abv =… # bottles of 500 ml at 40%abv = ]

Promise to let ya’all know!

Ho,Ho,Ho... Merry Xmass

[ArkyJ]

Hey Liquid!

Do you want to fly over with me. I am leaving tomorrow to get my two new Ferrari 458 Itallias from the factory. I assume your private strip can handle my newly refitted Boeing 767. God! What a major head ache. I told them not a dime more than 10 mil and it had to have space for the horses and trainer. Oh well!
Tell your people get with my people to set it up.
ArkyJ