Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

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kruger
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Post by kruger » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:09 am

Watershed,

That is very interesting.
How similar are the recipes for wheat beer and rice wine?
Could it be the lactic acidity that gives it comparable fragrance and flavour?

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Post by Watershed » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:39 pm

The recipes are nothing like each other - it's got to be down to the lactic acid and the fragrance of the basmati rice. I wonder what it'd be like with hops in.

Slightly back on track, I'm wondering about bottling up some of the sake with the rice spirit added in, maybe with a bit of wood.

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Post by Bujapat » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:35 am

Hi guys,
No time to surf, chat, distill... since 3 weeks : too much work durin' the day and to much parties in the evening ! Next week : holydays! I'll have more time to follow your experiences!

By the way, Hoegaarden is a Belgian "white" beer, we call it "white" since it is near uncolored (pale yellow) and cloudy, a little bitter, but delicious if cooled and with a little lemon peel!
I'm french speaking!

Boiler : 50 L (13 gal) beer keg, gas heated.
Reflux : 104 cm (41 inches) column 54 mm (2 inches) diameter withh SS scrubbers packing.
Potstill : 40 cm (15 inches) column 54 mm (2 inches) diameter without packing.

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Post by Jeremy » Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:18 am

Fourway wrote: I cannot find diastatic malt extract here in the states, the brewshops all say it is no longer being made.
can you recommend any brands?
You can order diastatic malt flour from http://www.fhsteinbart.com onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. Crosby and Baker manufactures amalayse enzyme(this works just the same). You may want to ask your homebrew supply shop if they can order you some.

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Post by hoochinoo » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:56 pm

Bujapat, did you run your wash in a pot or a reflux still?

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Post by Bujapat » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:07 am

I ran it with my reflux without packing.
At this time, I had no potstill... Now I've one, sure I'd run my sake in the potstill.
I'm french speaking!

Boiler : 50 L (13 gal) beer keg, gas heated.
Reflux : 104 cm (41 inches) column 54 mm (2 inches) diameter withh SS scrubbers packing.
Potstill : 40 cm (15 inches) column 54 mm (2 inches) diameter without packing.

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Post by manu de hanoi » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:29 am

I have yeast for making rice alcohol/wine, they recommend to make a chimey in the cooked rice after inoculation, probably to let the bottom yeast breathe.

Vietnamese pple usually age the alcohol by putting back the fermented rice in the alcohol jar, so that it fills a 3rd of the bottle. This adds a sweet taste and a rice taste to the alcohol. After a while the rice is removed from the alcohol and can be eaten too.

Available flavors are : bear (i once saw a whole bear in a tank !), pigeon/crow (the complete bird with feathers), dog featus, snakes, scorpion, wasp larvaes, silkworm, along with the traditional medicinal plants (ginseng, jasmin, and less known stuff) .........

The varieties of alcohol depend on whether it is made from glutinous rice, full rice (with the skin), or roasted rice

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by dropping_planets » Sun May 03, 2009 12:59 am

you talkin' like a grizzly or a black bear, dead in a tank of booze to add bear flavor.....WOW... :shock:

gonna make me some bear whiskey....

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by HeadCase » Thu May 12, 2011 8:45 am

Just as a minor clarification on the alcohols of asian countries. Sake, as Bujapat mentioned, is a Rice Alcohol. Yes, this is correct. Sake is in fact a Rice Wine, there are as many Rice Wine types as there are other Wine types. Niguri (I believe is how it is spelt) is a sweeter, unfiltered rice wine, all typically very light in color or clear. Some sakes have a pinkish hue to them which are usually called Sakura (or "blossom"). They don't have reds, or darks when it comes to Sakes. Yes, sakes are typically served warm (for ease of digestion) but can also be room temp or chilled. But a Japanese Sake, or Rice wine, is Very different then a Chinese Rice Wine. Sake has a much lower abv% than Chinese wine.

Now, Chinese culture has another type of rice wine, these are typically very dark in color, has very high abv%, and tastes like fermented fruit, rice, and goat urine (IMHO). My visit to China allowed me much experience with these types of alcohol, and I tried them all :lol: .

Bujapat mentioned buijiu when it is actually "Píjiǔ" 啤酒 (pronounced Pee-Jehw) is in fact chinese for "Beer". "Biru" (pronounced Bee-Du) is Japanese for Beer or liquer. So when in Tokyo say, "Biru ichi ipon oneng-ieshi-mas" (roughly translated to "Beer one bottle please/thank you" or "I would like 1 bottle of beer").

Chinese has nothing like Japanese Sake, and Japanese has nothing like Chinese Rice Wine. I typically can tell by the alcohol content and the color on which is which.

I hope this helps you with what you are trying to identify as the type of likker you are making.
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by HeadCase » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:00 am

As a followup to the previous post of mine, I stumbled upon a picture that was taken on my last trip of a Still that they used in China to make their Rice Wine. This was in the city of Tong Li (referred to by Americans as Little Venice due to their water "streets").

It's a Pot still with an upward inclined feed into the much larger condenser. The product is collected in small, clay pots and corked.
IMG_1440.JPG
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by the pure drop » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:52 pm

this rice likker seems to be the same thing they make here in korea. here they call it soju. also, instead of using wooden stills, the use big pottery pot stills. I'm not all that partial to soju, although it's nice from time to time. to me it taste similar to a twice ran sugar wash through a pot still. but thats just me.
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by rubelstrudel » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:14 am

Sake
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by jonnys_spirit » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:52 am

I made some rice wine - sake - using the Koji kin spores which produce enzymes that turn rice starches into sugars. There is an involved protocol if you use that methos so you should google it.

As an alternative you can convert rice starches like you would corn with the same enzymes.

The Sake turned out very good and took maybe three months or more before it was ready to bottle.

I’d like to do some rice vodka some day and would probably use the regular enzymes for that and the more traditional koji kin spores for sake. I used a lager yeast and a lacto infection protocol in the sake as prescribed but there are sake yeast available too.

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by rubelstrudel » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:37 am

Seems like I inadvertently committed thread necromancy here. But this topic is due some love, so I ain't sorry.

I am working on a Sake project right now. Trying to filter out the correct ingredients I need to get hold of to create authentic japanese Sake. It isn't easy when things are called different names as soon as you cross a border, and many things are not readily available.

First, the correct type of rice. To create authentic japanese brews I need Mochi-gome, sweet glutinous rice of the japanese short grained variety. Thai glutenous rice with long grains is a totally different beast and will make a very different scent/flavour. So far I have been unable to source Mochi-gome in any significant quantity.

Secondly I need to make or source kome-koji. Rice malt. This is actually easier. I can get freeze dried kome-koji at my local japophile shop. Expensive, but not impossible. Or I can make my own, if I can find a source of koji-kin spores of the correct variety.

Koji-kin (koji seeds) comes in at least 4 different varieties. White, black, yellow and brown. The brown type (often called tane-koji-kin - tane=seed/nut) is used for fermenting soy beans and not for rice. Shiro-koji-kin (white), kuro-koji-kin (black) and ki-koji-kin (yellow) are different strains of mold that are used for alcohol making. White is the most common, easy to find spores. Black is the more traditional, more difficult to find and very expensive, yellow is really difficult to find.

Now, in my first experiments I used pre made kome-koji that I had sent from japan. And this works really well. The enzymes in kome-koji works optimally at around 50-60C and is easy to work with. Now, I did not find any proper mochi-gome, and erroneously bought thai glutenous rice believing it might be the same thing. So no SAKE for me, but rice alcohol should be possible. I use a rice cooker that can cook 1.5kg of dry rice in one go and a couple of 25l fermenters.

I start with adding the first batch of (1.5kg dry weight) cooked rice to the fermenter. Add 4l of boiling water and wait until the temperature of the slush is 60C. then I add 800g of freeze dried kome-koji. I don't know if that is to much or to little. But it was what I had. I keep the rice cooker busy and every 25 minutes I add another batch of freshly cooked rice to the fermenter until I have added 10kg of dry rice. That fills up the fermenter nicely, and it has kept the temperature in the fermenter at a nice and cozy 50-60C the entire time. Enzymes are having a blast and what initially was a thick porridge has converted into a very high gravity sugar soup.

Now. Originally I wanted to let this ferment as a Sake, with no added water, at low temperatures. But didn't bother when I didn't have the correct type of rice, thus letting the enzymes work at optimal tempeatures and going for a rice vodka instead. So I split the contents of my initial fermenter bucket into two buckets and added water fill them up. That gave me an OG of 1060 and probably still some unconverted starches in the rice leftovers. I throw in a generous amount of EC1118 and seal the lids.

The ferment was slow to start, but boy did it take off after that. It'll be intersting to see how this turns out.
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Oldvine Zin » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:22 pm

I decided to dabble a bit with rice. I'm not expecting great results on my first one but it's all a learning process for me.

Started with 5 Lbs of cooked rice, added koji kin about 2 cups, a little high temp enzyme to hedge my bet, and added some EC 1118 when the temp cooled down to 90F.

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by rubelstrudel » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:30 am

Koji kin are spores, so I assume you added koji- malted rice. Did you soak the koji before adding?
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Yummyrum » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:56 am

Rubels ,how’s your last Rice wash going ?

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by rubelstrudel » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:54 am

It's really shaping up well. I've had a couple of fellow Japan enthusiasts try it and they were both positive, even suggesting that my shochu was smoother with less bite than what they used to get in Japan.

Really wish I could get some Ume to make umeshu.

I haven't had time to use koji kin to malt my own rice yet.
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Oldvine Zin » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:48 am

rubelstrudel wrote:Koji kin are spores, so I assume you added koji- malted rice. Did you soak the koji before adding?
Yes koji rice and I probably didn't soak it long enough, but when I checked for sugars an hour in it was already at 20 brix

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by rubelstrudel » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:55 pm

Koji keeps on working even at normal fermentation temps. It's amazing how little dry matter remains after a good rice ferment.
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Oldvine Zin » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:04 pm

a little bit of a hopeful good omen - my son returned from eating at a Ramen house and had some locally produced Sake and thought that I should try to make some, then he looked down at my fermenting bucket of rice - "suggestion too late "

I hope to give them a visit and maybe get a couple of pointers :D

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Oldvine Zin » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:50 pm

Paid a visit to the sake brewery today, glad I did! Just as I thought I was doing everything wrong :o

First mistake not culturing the koji as a first step and then make the Moto or yeast starter and then transfer those together with the steamed rice (moromi), and Oh yes steamed not boiled as in a rice cooker as I did.
So much to learn. I'l still run this batch to completion and run it, It's happily bubbling away and might turn out OK?? Starting a second batch the proper way this weekend. Ordered the recommended book https://www.amazon.com/Sake-Handbook-in ... rch&sr=8-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow and have a bit of reading to do.

More later
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by rubelstrudel » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:51 am

If you used freeze dried, premade koji. Then you do not need to go through the whole process of steaming/molding your own koji malted rice. Premade koji works justs as nicely, only it needs to be rehydrated for full effect.

Only keep your temperatures under control. Temperatures over 68C will denature your koji enzymes and they will have no effect.
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Oldvine Zin » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:36 pm

rubelstrudel wrote:If you used freeze dried, premade koji. Then you do not need to go through the whole process of steaming/molding your own koji malted rice. Premade koji works justs as nicely, only it needs to be rehydrated for full effect.
OK I'm still learning here, cut me some slack :)

From what I've been told the ratio of infected rice to non is between 25 to 30%, so if I wanted to ferment 100 lbs of rice I would need to purchase 25 lbs of freeze dried koji to my 75 lbs of non? Or does a little freeze dried go a long way?
Thinking that I will just culture some mold and go the traditional way.

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by rubelstrudel » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:11 pm

I also read that, and ended up using 10% koji and a dollop of enzymes. That's what I had. And it worked out like a charm.
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Oldvine Zin » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:41 pm

My first ferment finished, tastes like an OK unfiltered sake, nothing special, will run it in a couple of days.
sake1.JPG
little over 5 liters

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Corsaire » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:38 am

Very tempting. I'm on the hunt for some koji rice now...

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by rubelstrudel » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am

Shops selling japanese goods should have freeze dried koji. It is a common enough ingredient for making various japanese foods. Worst case you'll have to make a trip to Düsseldorf, I know you can get it there at Wayo delicatessen.

Also, I'll use the opportunity to brag a bit.

My Shochu is really developing well. I opened up a bottle that has had three months to mature now and it is really really starting to turn into something rather delicious. The bitterness has diminished, the sweet rice aroma has intensified and it is so smooth that you can hardly feel it is 40% abv. This project turned out really well. I'm not giving away all of this so easily. This is going to be used for gifts to connaisseurs of schochu, not just any boose hungry relative.

It is amazing really , that something that was single distilled can turn out so well. I made some hefty cuts, and I believe that has paid off now. Really happy with the result.
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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Corsaire » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:05 pm

Turns out a local brewshop carries the stuff. I've ordered it, have to pick it up next time I go. Thanks for the pointers!

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Re: Rice Alcohol vs Sake! First experience.

Post by Sazerac » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:07 am

It seems like there are a lot of misconceptions about the chinese side of things here.
Chinese rice wine is called huangjiu (jiu is pretty much the suffix for any alcoholic drink in mandarin), and has a variety of styles, some very similar to Japanese sake, some not. It is typically made with a starter called xiaoqu, which is a mix of yeast and saccarifying moulds (can be aspergillus oryzae like koji, but also rhyzopus oryzae or aspergillus niger). Chinese yeast balls and the angel yeast mentioned elsewhere on these forums are forms of this.
wiki references:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangjiu
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%C5%AB

China's main distilled spirits is called Baijiu, and can be made from a variety of grains, but most commonly sorghum serves as the base. The starter for it is similar, called Daqu, but has a bigger, more complex bacterial load, and is typically used in quite large amounts. This is where some of the more unique flavours of baijiu come from, which can be a bit of an acquired taste for some. One day I want to have a try at making some, but sourcing the starter might be difficult.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baijiu

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