Jack Daniels Mash

Grain bills and instruction for all manner of alcoholic beverages.

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Postby Uncle Remus » Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:59 pm

Ditto on JD. It is swil, expensive swil. Jim Beam is much better...but I prefer barley whiskies myself.

I totally agree with UJ and the others, with a little experience, patients, and persistance, you can make much better products than almost any commercial spirit.
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Postby Aidas » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:53 pm

Regardless of one's opinion about Jack Daniels (I haven't had any of the stuff since I started distilling -- in fact I don't drink anything but my own stuff now...), I reiterate that the aforeposted grain bill is not for Jack Daniels or for any other bourbon or tennessee whiskey.

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Postby WhiteLightning » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:34 am

it is actually the JD grain bill, but edited in some places, so it is not the "true" grain bill. I didnt have rye so i didnt use rye, and I made the grain bill smaller for a 5 gal batch. But the JD bill is on this site. check it out.
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Postby Rocky_Creek » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:42 am

Anyone believeing that list has anything to do with making Jack D. whiskey is very confused. Corn, barley, rye, 4 yeast types. Continous distill, then double, run thorough maple charcoal. Age. Some how it don't sound the same.
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Postby WhiteLightning » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:48 am

Rocky_Creek wrote:Anyone believeing that list has anything to do with making Jack D. whiskey is very confused. Corn, barley, rye, 4 yeast types. Continous distill, then double, run thorough maple charcoal. Age. Some how it don't sound the same.


Why the hell would they use 4 yeast types, whats one yeast going to do that the others , or other cant? Its fricken distilled mash, not a micro brew.
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Postby Rocky_Creek » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:52 pm

You'll have to ask them. I've never used over 3.

But if you think that's odd, you should read about 4 roses. 10 different mash bill/yeast combinations, aged separately and blended at the end.
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Postby furball » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:13 pm

Depends upon how sensitive your palate is, there are different flavor components with the different strain of yeasts.
If you look up the flavor components of whiskey you will find that the yeast impacts the flavor as much as the grain bill does.
As an experiment try making up a bulk batch of mash, then split it up into different vessels and pitch different strains of yeast. When it ferments out taste the resulting brew, and you will notice subtle differences. if you make the batches a bit bigger and then run them independantly you will see that the flavor of the distillate will also be different.
This is how the different distillers differentiate their products from one another, along with their proprietary grain bills.
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grain bills

Postby Uncle Jesse » Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:53 pm

the quality of a whiskey has little to do with the grain bill. slight variations will change the flavors - and for these big companies it's probably more important that some adjuncts will reduce cost as well. at any rate, a well-done mash, pot-distilled with care will produce a fine whiskey. i'm sure a jack daniels mash could produce a great product, if they were willing to take the time to do so. however, you just can't do this when your emphasis is profit, not quality. they'd have to stop their continual stills and go back to pot stills, and they'd have to use quality barrels as well.

pot stills means less production and therefore less money, and quality barrels are rather expensive.
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Re: Jack Daniels Mash

Postby nimrod77 » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:57 am

1 tsp of Amylase


Pardon my ignorance but, what is amylase and where do you get it from???
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Postby stoker » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:27 am

it's an enzyme that breaks down starch

you can buy it at brew shops
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Postby ginzo » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:05 pm

WhiteLightning wrote:ok, i've changed my opinion after a couple of shots and some education. and my whiskey smeels like butterscotch too, after a few years, must be doing something right. lol. Oh if you want a butternut flavor/ smell to your whiskey, add 1 can of coor's beer to ur first distillation and distill 2 more times.


YOu add that beer to the first distillate or to the boiler before you distill the first time?
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Postby bubbabrew » Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:03 am

I have a few questions about an all corn sour mash. In a simple sour mash you add corn to flavor but basically use a sugar wash. After the first run you add backset to the fermentor and add more sugar. As the shampoo bottle says rinse lather repeat. If you are using only corn and maybe some rye or barley what do you do for the fermentables in the second ferment and third etc. Do you add more corn? If so do you have to remash it before adding? Any help would be grateful
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Postby pintoshine » Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:55 am

Ok I got this one.
In your shampoo terms this is the process.
1 mash pure malted corn or corn with active diastic malted barley.
2 pitch fresh yeast and ferment.
3 dump all into still except for a small amount of the lees.
4 distill.
5 mash new corn with some liquid backins.
6 pitch lees and ferment
7 go back to 3 and repeat forever or until it smells so much like crap you can't stand it.

That's about it.
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Re: grain bills

Postby partsbill » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:48 am

Uncle Jesse wrote:the quality of a whiskey has little to do with the grain bill. slight variations will change the flavors - and for these big companies it's probably more important that some adjuncts will reduce cost as well. at any rate, a well-done mash, pot-distilled with care will produce a fine whiskey. i'm sure a jack daniels mash could produce a great product, if they were willing to take the time to do so. however, you just can't do this when your emphasis is profit, not quality. they'd have to stop their continual stills and go back to pot stills, and they'd have to use quality barrels as well.

pot stills means less production and therefore less money, and quality barrels are rather expensive.


Makes sense. Question on their barrels. What do they use vs what would be better?
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Postby Rebel_Yell » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:38 am

partsbill,

JD uses new, charred, white oak barrels to age their drink.
<<<Edited>>>

Here's a read about what makes bourbon and Tennessee whiskey unique.
http://www.wildturkeybourbon.com/faq.asp

Edited I was wrong and do not want to promote misinformation
Last edited by Rebel_Yell on Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Husker » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:10 am

Rebel_Yell
partsbill,

JD uses new, charred, white oak barrels to age their drink. They destroy these barrels after use. Cut them in half and sell for planters.

Here's a read about what makes bourbon and Tennessee whiskey unique.
http://www.wildturkeybourbon.com/faq.asp


Actually a large majority of JD barrels are not destroyed (the ones that still can hold a seal. Many of them are sold to the tabasco company. 100% of the barrels tabasco uses are used JD barrels (they also only use them one time). They vinegar "ferment" their pepper mash for 3 years. Top of the kegs are salt covered, thus allowing the CO2 to bubble out the salt plug.

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Postby Rebel_Yell » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:14 am

Thanks Husker.
Ya learn something everyday. That makes sense. Barrels are expensive. I can see a distillery trying to make as much as they can from their used goods. I know that the local breweries have no problem selling the spent grains to the highest bidders.
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Interesting Fact about the wihskey makers.

Postby pintoshine » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:53 am

You know that Jim Beam, Bookers, Knob Creek and several others are owned by the same company. They all can have shortages or overages from time to time due to planning, equipment failures, over production, too much demand whaterver. But the part I bet you didn't know is that the barrels aged barrels of raw, unblended whiskey have lots of variation. The barrels get stored all over the place, reguardless of the name brand and are traded around depending on the need of one company or another. As long as the taxes are paid to get them out of the warehouse the destination of the barrel is wherever the need for a particular flavor is in need at the time. The thing that distinguishes one brand form another is the art of the blender. The blender will take several parts of different flavored barrles and blend them together to get the "Standard" for whichever brand is being made at the time.
Some of the really good barrels become "barrel select" others can be so bad as to be rectified and become pure grain. Some of the pure grain and lesser quality barrels may even become a "blended" whiskey such as "Beam's Eight Star" which is really not that bad and tastes quite like young "rested" oak infused sugar mash.
One of the "Black" sheep in Kentucky, owned by Brown foreman is Early Times. This is not a bourbon because they use "Used" barrels. So the label says "Sour Mash" It is lighter than Beam or Jack but has that characteristic corn flavor. I Enjoy sippin this once in a while.
Now let me say a word about Barton. Barton Brands is a big company also. But they have never tried to compete in the Bourbon market a lot. But I have to tell you that for a clean after taste and and lack of morning after effects, Very Old parton has done itself proud. I consider VOB a chugging whiskey.

I guess the point is, the blenders hitting that "Standard" is what all the companies are doing reguardless of whose barrel it comes from.
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Postby partsbill » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:19 pm

That was quite informative there pinto. It would make sense that oak from one tree to the next could be quite different. Yet since it seems so much of the caramalization, color, and sugars come from the barrel that they would have been cultivating groves of oak trees in similar fashion to southern yellow pines. Now I know that oak grows much slower but if "quality" barrel are to be had, then they should come from roughly the same tree stock, area, soil, climate.

Uncle Jesse, you stated that JD would be better if they use quality barrels. Your take on the barrel quality.
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Postby Rebel_Yell » Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:47 pm

That is very informative Pintoshine.
I know that corp. from doing some work on one of their brands.
I learned a little more today...
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Postby TownDrunk » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:16 pm

Pinto I gotta call BS.

All those brands are distributed by one company not owned by one.

JD and all those other brands have their own warehouses that their filled barrels are stored in. They don't store all over and trade around barrels. Each brand's hooch is unique. Why do you think they are so protective of their yeast strains!

Where did you get your information?
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Postby masonjar » Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:02 am

Slightly unrelated question:

What would happen if you built an oak box instead of a barrel? It seems that you could make some tongue-and-groove edges pretty easily with a router and you could use straps to press the pieces together tightly to stop leaks. Wouldn't this be effectively the same thing as a barrel but much cheaper? Has anyone tried this?
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Postby stoker » Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:36 am

I think you would have leaks. Because of the shape of a barrel, the wood is pressed on each other. you won't have that with a box.

at least, that's what I think, never tried nor heard anything like that
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Postby Grayson_Stewart » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:05 am

Square "barrels" have been discussed here or over at yahoo before. The benefit of round barrels is the arch. As the wood is pressed together and swollens to create a seal, the structure becomes stronger with each stave supporting the adjacent stave.

A square box would have flat sides. Even if you bound the box tightly, there would be no internal strength and a slight bump on the outside would cause the box to collapse.

For an example, try this....carefully stand on an empty soda/beer can without crushing it and then have someone tap the side of that can.
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Postby Rebel_Yell » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:30 am

TownDrunk
All those brands are distributed by one company not owned by one.


http://www.brown-forman.com/brands/
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Postby Husker » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:56 am

Grayson_Stewart
Square "barrels" have been discussed here or over at yahoo before. The benefit of round barrels is the arch. As the wood is pressed together and swollens to create a seal, the structure becomes stronger with each stave supporting the adjacent stave.

A square box would have flat sides. Even if you bound the box tightly, there would be no internal strength and a slight bump on the outside would cause the box to collapse.

For an example, try this....carefully stand on an empty soda/beer can without crushing it and then have someone tap the side of that can.


Yes, but boxes could be packed thightly together (and solidly against the floor, thus having wall strength of the "whole" group. I certainly do not know if this is "workable", but it might be. To drain, simply have a 2.5" bung in the top, that you knock out after "years", and insert a 2" hose from a pump, and pump it out. Thus, a whole "floor would be packed with aiging boxes, and would drain all at the same time.

Just an idea. I do not know if it is workable at all, but would save having to have a master cooper and all the cost/waste of building round barrels.

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Postby stoker » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:37 am

those boxes just won't hold the liquid.
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Postby mtnwalker2 » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:45 am

masonjar wrote:Slightly unrelated question:

What would happen if you built an oak box instead of a barrel? It seems that you could make some tongue-and-groove edges pretty easily with a router and you could use straps to press the pieces together tightly to stop leaks. Wouldn't this be effectively the same thing as a barrel but much cheaper? Has anyone tried this?


Flat bottomed jon boat with a lid? Mine never leaked, water anyhow. Would think you would lose a lot to angels, though.
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Postby Big J » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:17 am

Rebel_Yell wrote:
TownDrunk
All those brands are distributed by one company not owned by one.


http://www.brown-forman.com/brands/


Not all the brands listed there are owned by Brown-Forman, its a mix of the brands they own and the ones they distribute. I don't know which are which, but they are all just mixed in together. For example, Amarula is a brand owned by Distell here in South Africa, but distributed by Brown Forman in the US.
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Postby Rebel_Yell » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:45 am

Three times wrong on a thread... I'll just stfu
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