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Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:26 am
by buflowing
Odin, regarding macerating grain, this is what I've done. I soaked approximately 1/4 cup of grain per 750ml of base UJ spirit for at least a week. I remove and discard the grain, then macerate the botanicals for 12 to 24 hours. I dilute with base UJ wash to 25 to 30%, toss all but the peel into the pot and run. The last batch I added 1/4 cup of fresh grain to the boiler (the spent grain is tasteless to me). For maceration, I used crystal malt and mallairdized rye malt. For the distilling on the grain I used the mallairdized rye and a little plain rye malt. I've run the barley and rye separately and together. So far, there seems to be a nice grain character in the product. I think it needs to age a bit to get a better picture.

On each batch, after stilling I've diluted half with water to 40 or so %. The other half I add a couple small pieces of toasted oak stave at 60 or so %. I have a feeling I don't want to go too long on wood, so I'll be watching to make sure it doesn't go too far.

Impressions: This stuff is instant gratification as it tastes marvelous right off the bat. Love this shit. Your original recommended dosing of juniper makes a juniper forward drink. I may end up mixing with white or aged UJ to get the level I'm looking for. Halving the juniper as you later recommended might be about right, but I have not diluted it yet. After discarding the first 20ml, I've learned to keep the next 20 to 40ml collected off the still separate from the rest. There is a lot of juniper in there that can be added back as needed for fine tuning. I've noticed that the wood tones down the juniper as well.

Overall, I'm sold. I think your recipe is spot on. I may start taking some of my UJ aging in jugs to continue my experiments. Hee Haw.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:24 am
by Odin
Glad to hear it works out fine for you!

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Odin.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:50 am
by Pissedfart
Odin wrote: Anyway, that's what the Dutch did. Still, wood ageing is not so important. Nothing like what you see in single malt whisky: the longer the better.

BTW, can it be that the English took rum as their "sailing" likker? Just remembering some English stories about sailors drinking rum all the time.

Odin.
Hi Odin,

We Brits took both Gin and Rum on our Naval Ships. Plymouth Gin at Naval strength 57% was supplied to all newly commissioned ships in the form of a Commissioning Kit. See link;

http://www.staceyauction.com/Auction-Detail_9307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Gin and Rum were mixed with lime juice to help prevent scurvy. During our occupation of India, Gin was mixed with Indian Tonic Water to combat the bitter taste of the Quinine, which is a antimalarial medicine.
This was the birth of the G & T, which quickly increased in popularity and is why lime is also the traditional accompaniment.

So next time you go fishing or sailing, don't forget you two bottles of Gin, tonic and lots of limes.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:19 am
by Odin
Thanks for the update! Last time I went fishing ... was just a week and a half ago. With GA Flatwoods. We had a great time, but changed the gin & lime for beer. It was something like 90 degrees F, so beer made sense.

Regards, Odin.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:23 am
by Candleworks
Glad I found this thread.

Oude Genever is also the way I am heading as soon as my still arrives.

Got interested in genever during a trip to Amsterdam last year. Did some research at the time but cant find the site again.

It mentioned that Oude Genever or Korinwijn (can't remember which one but I suspect it was the latter) was made by distilling from an all grain mash containing equal parts barley, wheat and rye to around 40%.
Then splitting it in 3 parts. 1 part gets distilled to around 60% and 1 part gets distilled with a lot juniper berries. The last part kept at 40%.

Then it is blended together to the required ABV% and the desired juniper flavor, before aged in barrels.

What the your opinion on this approach?

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:47 am
by Candleworks
Sorry previous post full of mistakes.

Finally found the site again.

The grain bill includes barley, corn and rye. Not wheat.

And the method they discribe is as follow:
It is distilled 3 times to about 45%, so called Maltwine.

The maltwine is split into four different volumes.

One volume remains as is pure maltwine
The second volume is redistilled in a small potstill which has been loaded with Juniperberries.
The third part will be re-distilled in order to reach 75% alcohol (abv).
The fourth part will be re-distilled with a mixture of various botanicals.

The 4 parts is then blended together and not needed to be aged.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:31 pm
by Odin
That sounds ... like a very Dutch approach, Candle!

Keep us posted!

Odin.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:33 am
by srpompon
Odin, Thank you for teaching us...

I other post about gin you say about Hot compounding "Problem is that you can make the mistake by distilling too long. Herbs that stay too hot for too long will give other off tastes." can please explain this? is better a fast run when the botanicals in the still?

Thanks,

Pompon

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:52 am
by The Baker
seems logical; in the same way vegetables (which are plants like herbs) taste quite different when they are overcooked.
Geoff

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:04 am
by srpompon
The Baker wrote:seems logical; in the same way vegetables (which are plants like herbs) taste quite different when they are overcooked.
Geoff
but how fast you can run 2 liters? in my setup 3 hours aprox (is a small one laboratory setup) in a big setup you cook the botanicals at least 8 hours!

Thanks,

Pompon

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:16 am
by der wo
I think it's more like this:
When you have distilled a while, the most of the good flavors are in the spirit container and more and more bad tastes come over. So you have to stop here. Regardless how long you cooked. It's more about the amount of vapor you produced than the duration it needed to evaporate it. If you need 2h to come to the cut point and have 1l product, it will not be possible to rise the heat next time and get in 2h 1.5l good product. You will get again 1h product, but after 1.5h. Fast or slow distilling is not related to "gentle distilling". Fast or slow is related to smearing, so fast or slow distilling has an effect on taste, but not because the herbs are overcooked.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:47 am
by srpompon
Der wo:

gotcha... in my two first tests of the Odin recipe i cut the tails late and the gin have a taste like cooked oranges.... very very bad.. now in this one i cut at time and is toooo much better.
from 1.5l at 43% i obtain 550cm3 at 81% of very nice gin.
IMG_20161221_144003.jpg

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:56 pm
by as82
Do you have a thermometer in your distillation head?

Vapor temperature is your best orientation. (after your nose of course :wink: )

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:20 pm
by srpompon
as82 wrote:Do you have a thermometer in your distillation head?

Vapor temperature is your best orientation. (after your nose of course :wink: )
Yes i have one in the top, i stop at 87c this time... now the problem is wait 5 weeks to drink the Gin.

Tomorrow i do one run w/n botanical in the still.....

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:20 pm
by Kareltje
For what it is worth: I ran a gin with juniper in the boiler and ran it all until far in 100 degr C. The fluid I collected I kept still and after some time there appeared some spots of a sticky blueish/greenish droplets. Not enough to analyse or use it further, though.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:49 pm
by Pikey
srpompon wrote:
as82 wrote:Do you have a thermometer in your distillation head?

Vapor temperature is your best orientation. (after your nose of course :wink: )
Yes i have one in the top, i stop at 87c this time... now the problem is wait 5 weeks to drink the Gin.

Tomorrow i do one run w/n botanical in the still.....
Thermo at the top is good help in making cuts. BUT you need to know what is going on in your boiler as well.

I made that mistake when I first started and had a thermostat to shut down power when head temp got around what you're talking about.

Wrong ! All you are doing is wasting good ethanol !

The head temp goes up because you get a partial reflux in your column and the latent heat of vapourisation heats the head as the gas condenses. Now I run up very close to 100 deg C and I have run to 103.

The boiler temp was still only just bove 90 deg C.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:25 am
by der wo
Pikey wrote:The head temp goes up because you get a partial reflux in your column and the latent heat of vapourisation heats the head as the gas condenses. Now I run up very close to 100 deg C and I have run to 103.

The boiler temp was still only just bove 90 deg C.
The temp goes down because of partial reflux. When the mash is 90°C and the vapor is 100°C, something is wrong. Probably the vapor thermometer is wrong. When a mash boils at 90°C, it has 16% alcohol. The vapor will have 90°C too and 64% alcohol. Unless there is reflux. Then the vapor at the highest point will have a lower temp and a higher abv.
Distill once water. I think it will measure 110°C instead of 100°C.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:26 am
by Odin
Your English isn't bad at all Der Wo! I read the same but needed a cup of coffee before answering.

:thumbup:

Regards, Odin.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:36 am
by sparky marky
Gonna give this a go I think... sounds pleasant and Iv never tasted one before. Iv just ordered a bottle of bols white genever so I can see what all the fuss is about :wave:

I will probably start with a 60/40 barley malt/wheat malt all grain. Il strip it and run it through 4 plates and then split it into two jars:

1) nice clean hearts for a white genever

2) a jar with blended fractions done the normal way I would if I want to oak for 6-12 months.

For jar #1 botanicals I will probably go with:

5L at 30% whisky
25g juniper
12g coriander seed
3g Angelica root
5g orange zest
1g cinnamon stick
3g Orris root

Sound reasonable? It's much lighter on botanicals than I normally would go for gin.

Would i be best running the same recipe for the one I intend to oak for comparison or should I change it up?

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:44 am
by sparky marky
Just realised there's a third option...
I could oak a clean whisky for a short time (maybe 8 weeks) for the oaky flavour but no actual "aging".
Hmmm....

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:17 am
by 65imp
I just ran a couple liters of this recipe this week. Is it recommended to oak afterward to get the color and increase the wood notes?
I know with the Gin I try to keep my hands off it for about a month to let the flavors improve. My plan was to do the same with the Genever, but while on toasted oak chips. But I don't see any mention of it here.
If I do oak, is it better to oak ata higher proof say 65% or dilute it down to the 41% mentioned for drinking first?
I already know it's good and would rather not mess it up! :D

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:55 am
by Odin
Oaking afterwards is great. 50% for more vanilins, 65% for more tanine-like complexity.

Odin.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:09 pm
by TDick
@odin I am ecstatic that I found this post! :crazy:
Want to give it a bump with some questions.
I want to do this as the second part of @Jimbo s Wheated Bourbon & Gumball "recipe"
I'll be starting with feints and wash of All Grain wheated mash.
Gumball directions are:

"Instead of dumping that pile of squeezed out spent grain (and goo from the bottom of the settling buckets) in the compost (like I used to do! ugh) cook up 16 lbs of sugar with 2 gallons of the backset from the stripper run above and 10 gallons water. Cool and pour over the spent grain. There's plenty yeast embedded in the grain so no need for more yeast. This baby will start up quick and ferment out fast, 1.061 to 1.000 in 4 days."

I have a 5 gallon copper pot with thumper & worm. I am thinking I'll have 10-12 gallons or more of wash to do about 3-4 single runs with feints in the thumper. Then using the hearts for the ??whatever!!. From ALL my runs I should have enough to do at least one more head/tails in a true spirit run. That should be closer to a neutral to compare to the single runs.

Gentlemen, I'd love suggestion on best practice to implement this..
One other thing. End of May, I did a 3-4 gallon sugar wash with invert & Hawaiian Punch. It has been sealed in a bucket, still red but settled clear with a dry fruity taste.
I REALLY want to add this with backset into my fermenter to see where it takes me. Can I just add more invert or HPunch to come up to 10 gallons and let it be fermenting? Or should I wait, add this to the backset and top off with sugar/water and let that all finish fermenting then?

I would really appreciate suggestions for this!
:mrgreen:

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:12 pm
by TDick
Odin wrote:Hi there. Yes I know and you probably know it yourselves: bunch of whiskey lovin' vandals, that's what ya are over here on HD. Offense intended and pun intended as well. Anyhow, I have seen a rising interest in gin / genever the last few months. Good development! Or maybe just the way evolution goes, right? From good to better? ;)

Time to take genever / gin one step further. Maybe away from gin and more towards genever. But that actually means a move back towards whiskey again. So that should suit you, shouldn't it?
Hail Mighty Odin!
Time to give this a bump again, although you and I may be the only interested parties.
Be careful of what you ask for, you might just get it!
I have not found Genever or Old Style Gin in the State of Alabama. However I traveled to Tennessee yesterday. TONS of assorted moonshines. Finally with the aid of a curious clerk, among dozens of assorted bottles of Dry Gin, I found ONE bottle of Bols!
Bols Genever.jpg
When I got in the car, I took a very small taste.
VERY Surprising!
Being only 84 proof, there was no bite, but also NO botanical taste at all.
I read a review that described it as a blend of gin and light scotch, and I would agree with that.
Definitey an acquired taste.
I definitely got the grain/mash taste and "chew", that was about it.
I've got a bad cold and it did warm my chest, so that was welcome relief.
When I got home, I mixed a little with ice & water and there was no real change. If anything it didn't taste very good at all.
THEN I read it's better at room temp. Yes it is. :wtf:
So know I'm wondering what to do with this.
I am thinking to filling a small jar and macerate with your "botanical bill", tasting each day to evaluate.
I guess the good news is the nose is exactly like Jimbo's Gumball wash I've got sitting.

Please let me know if you are familiar with this particular Bols Genever and what if anything are your suggestions.
Thanks!
Td
:shock:

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:01 am
by The Dark Alchemist
SO, I now have a bit of UJSSM available, so giving this a bump so I can find the thread in the weekend.......

Looks real interesting....

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:58 am
by Odin
Good luck. Let us know how it went.

Odin.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:38 am
by Tennessee_Spirits
I'm using Odin's simple gin as a starting point for more complex gins. I tasted a few commercial products and enjoyed the profile of Tanqueray and decided to make something like it but a little stronger in taste, more herbal. I added angelica root and liquorice in a gin basket, redistilling your recipe through these two and blended it. It was going really well in June.

But I had to take a break from gin making due to the heat and competing summer activities. And the Covid epidemic has been very hard on my plan to let people sample the gin and give me their opinions. Gin is so complex that it needs a crowd to evaluate. I find it more challenging in some ways than making bourbon. With bourbon the answer is always 'age it some more' or 'make tighter cuts' or 'adjust the grain bill'. The answers are finite, but not with gin. The cycle is shorter with gin, but it means making another batch.

A second problem I've had is a good one I think. I have 11 liters of gin to consume or give away before I can experiment with different gins such as Beefeaters or Bombay Sapphire. My tanqueray clone made too much using a 6 gallon batch.

Maybe I need a smaller still!

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:46 am
by Midnight Distiller
Great thread Odin.

Re: Genever / Gin : taking it one step further

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:29 pm
by Taxy
Today, I took the first steps in making jenever.

Before going the all grain and mashing route, I thought I first try a combination of two easier sugar-wash recipes by Odin. Let me explain my reasoning.

An old style jenever is most frequently based on a rye whisky but mashing rye is a PITA. Fortunately, Odin's recipe for a ryebread sugar wash seems a good basis to get to the rye taste. Having read its T&T recipe thread, however, it appears that the rye taste can get overwhelming. I do not want that, I want an equilibrium between the rye taste and the gin taste.

To balance the rye, corn is often suggested. In my part of the world, corn is not a staplefood. You can get some quantities as animal feed, but I doubt that will have been grown for its taste intensity. The most readily available alternative is cornflakes, so Odin's cornflakes whisky recipe is the other inspiration for the jenever trial.

Here's my first trial recipe per 26l wash volume :
* 750gr of rye bread that was fully "maillardized" (called "pumpernickel" locally), cut into small pieces;
* 1.5kg of cornflakes
* 3.5 kg of sugar

Add rye bread and cornflakes to a boiler with about 15l of water, mix thoroughly with a paint mixer. Bring to a boil for about 5 minutes and let it cool. As of 80°C I add alfa-amylase. 10 minutes later, the mash is already much thinner. At 60°C I mix the gluco-amylase and a couple of pinches citric acid. Add water to 26l, let it cool to 30°C, mix in some DAP and give it another thorough mixing. Add neutral yeast.

I don't know whether the enzymes are necessary. The rye bread and the cornflakes are there for the taste and I am unsure whether converting them with enzymes has an impact on the taste. But I had some enzymes at hand (from the Polish store) and it turned out that, by using them, about 1kg less sugar was required. So I guess it helps at least in reducing the sugarhead taste.

The OG was 1.070, which means the enzymes did convert a decent amount of the cornflakes. The wash also smells delicious.

That's where I am at this evening. I will keep you posted on the progress.