Rye bread whiskey

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Odin
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

There should be enough in the rye. Especially since it is baked AND cooked. What I mean is: like that they should be well available for the yeasts to feast on. But I always throw in a muti-vit. You know, the ones that dissolve into water ...

Please let me know how you guys are progressing with this recipe. And try to find the darkest, densest sorta rye bread / Pumperwhatever you can find. That's where the magic is hidden. Maybe in the very slow way this kind of bread is baked. Like 12 to 14 hours, if I understand the progress correctly!

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by bellybuster »

Ya I did allot of reading about rye bread and what I have isn't truly what real rye bread is. The flavour is there though so we shall see
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Okay, I am doing some finetuning on this recipe. Didn't expect myself to be saying this ever. Have been looking to say what I am about to say on my whiskey exploits for 2 years. Here it goes: there is almost too much taste!!!

I cut generation II (with backset from generation I) with 1/3rd of red wheat UJ and 1/3rd of malted barley UJ, and the rye still wants to climb out of the glass and pinch my nose and pull out my tongue!

I am making some minor changes to make the recipe easier "to access" and easier to scale up. A bit less rye bread, a bit more sugar. For an all rye sugarhead whiskey you can actually drink instead of having to consume it with fork & knife.

You need:
- 1.5 kilo's of dark, dense rye bread;
- yeast;
- a 30 liter fermentor;
- 4.25 kilo's of sugar;
- a pan & a fire place;
- water;
- yeast nutrients (not necesairy, but doesn't hurt either).

How to do it:
- crumble the rye bread and put it in the pan;
- put water in the pan (something like 6 liters), stir, bring to a boil;
- boil the rye for five minutes;
- put the fire out, put the sugar in and stir the sugar in untill compleately dissolved;
- add the contents of the pan to your fermentor;
- add water till you reach 25 liters;
- stir oxygen in;
- put yeast (bakers yeast is fine) on top, when temps are below 90 degrees F / 30 degrees C
- stir in yeast, let the fermentation begin.

At room temp, it should ferment dry in a week. At slightly lower temps it may take up to 2 weeks. It will give you a 10% beer. You can now take that beer of the lees, let it clear and distill it.

You can now ditch the lees and clean out the fermentor. When distilling is done, collect 6 liters of hot backset and put that in the pan. Add another 1.5 kilo's of rye bread, make sure you have another 4.25 kilo's of sugar ready ... and of you are again, now starting generation II.

Contrary to UJSSM, this rye bread whiskey is very, very tasty (if you like rye) from generation I on. It doesn't need several generations to develop. Backset is primarily used in order to efficiently cook and dissolve new rye bread and sugar. And the backset will lower PH which is good for the yeast. And no more vits are needed, since a lot of nutrients can be found in the backset (cooked yeast & rye).

Do you not feel like throwing away the yeast & rye bread bed ( :wink: )? Do you want to make some rye vodka? Then just re-use that spend rye bread bed. Put 5 liters of water on top of it, so the yeast stays happy while you distill your first generation. Now take some hot backset again and use it to dissolve 5.5 kilo's of sugar. No new rye is needed! Let the backset with sugar cool and add it to the fermentor where your old rye & yeast bed is waiting. Top up to 25 liters again. You will now get a beer that is around 13% strong and has less taste. But you will have a fantastic basis for a rye vodka. Tripple distilled and filtered. Or stripped and then fractionated in your LM/VM/CM.

Go get them!

Odin.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

So the huge amount of tastes I get over in this recipe sticked to my mind. How come this rye bread gives of more (and more complex) taste than my normal rye? Even an AG rye? And even more than an all malt AG rye?

I looked into how rye bread or pumpernickel is made and it turns out that the longer baking / cooking process triggers something called the Mailard Reaction. A non-enzymatic browning. That's what gives rye bread it's black collour. But the Mailard Reaction does more. Please read Wikipedia with me (I highlighted the most important parts):

"The Maillard reaction is a form of nonenzymatic browning. It results from a chemical reaction between an amino acid and a reducing sugar, usually requiring heat.
Vitally important in the preparation or presentation of many types of food, it is named after chemist Louis-Camille Maillard, who first described it in 1912 while attempting to reproduce biological protein synthesis.[1][2](p79)
The reactive carbonyl group of the sugar reacts with the nucleophilic amino group of the amino acid, and forms a complex mixture of poorly characterized molecules responsible for a range of odors and flavors. This process is accelerated in an alkaline environment (e.g., lye applied to darken pretzels), as the amino groups are deprotonated and, hence, have an increased nucleophilicity. The type of the amino acid determines the resulting flavor. This reaction is the basis of the flavoring industry. At high temperatures, acrylamide can be formed.
In the process, hundreds of different flavor compounds are created. These compounds, in turn, break down to form yet more new flavor compounds, and so on. Each type of food has a very distinctive set of flavor compounds that are formed during the Maillard reaction. It is these same compounds flavor scientists have used over the years to make reaction flavors."

Adding one plus one makes two. Or in this case maybe three. Rye bread is cooked/baked in such a way that the Mailard Reaction is triggered. This chemical reaction creates an abundance of tasts and flavor compounds. And that, my fellow homedistillers, is probably why this simple rye bread sugarhead whiskey has SO much taste.

For more reading, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rye_bread" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Thanks Tater!

I took the thinking a bit further and asked myself: "how can we apply the Maillard Reaction to other homedistiller approaches?"

Please see: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=36241

I think we can benefit from this reaction by triggering the Maillard Reaction in grains we use in an UJ or SF. The treatment (or: how to get there) is explained in the post linked above.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Dnderhead »

some of the grains used in beer are processed this way,they tend to be the "caramelized" ones.
these are toasted still whet,others are toasted after drying.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Yes, that is an addition I was just thinking about, Dunder! And if I am not mistaken the amount of taste (or bitterness due to higher temperature baking?) is raised. "A more full-bodied beer" is created using these caramalized grains. EBC is up too.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by bellybuster »

great write up.
I'm thinking that due to the bread that I used which is not the long cook style rye, I will not have near the flavour you are experiencing. I just hope I get some. Should be able to still it this weekend, will taste after a single run and decide if it needs a second still in.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Listening to you, you might get something lighter, closer to a bread like whiskey. But ... you might want to wetten some of that bread with rye and put it in the oven for a longer time. See if it browns. And if it does, you have your Maillard Reaction. Even when not a rye whiskey, it will give you a more interesting, stronger tasting result as to compared to generation I.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Dnderhead »

the pumpernickel in US mite be diferant,some use coco and /or coffee.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Over here it is rye and more rye. In Holland we generally distinguish between two varieties. The Frisian Rye bread is made from whole and broken rye kernels. The Brabant Rye Bread is made out of rye meal. I like the Frisian Rye Bread better as a bread. More character. So that's what I used in this recipe.

For people not having easy access to this type of rye bread: it can be easily made yourself. Well, I wouldn't even advice you guys to make the bread. Just a Maillardized semi-finished product that will allow you to make this great whiskey.

Fully scalable:
- put 500 grams of broken rye in half a liter of boiling water;
- put a lid on it and let it cool overnight;
- put it in an oven tray and add some more water;
- put alu foil on top;
- put the oven at 90 degrees C / 194 degrees F and put the tray in;
- let it cook for 6 hours;
- add some extra water half way down the cooking process.

This will give you something in between a very wet, crumbly bread and a porridge. Put it in your wash to enhance taste.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by bellybuster »

Was at the grocer tonight and found the Euro style rye bread...450 gram "brick" was $4.99, ouch!!

Had a sniff and a taste of my wash today, the smell is there but the wash is still sweet and that over powered the flavour. I can taste it in there though.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

I think that you could substitute acid malt, roast rye malt, rye malt and cracked rye kernels for pumpernickel or any sourdough rye, but then the ease and immediacy of chucking a bread in the fermenter is out the window, and you're more into the (AG) specialty whiskey department I guess?

I've still got to run my second gen "Danish Sourdough Rye Whiskey" which essentailly is the same as Odin's Rye Bread Whiskey, wondering if taste is going to overwhelming like you experienced Odin? Hope not, cause I sure was excited about 1st gen. :)

Do you think you can cut back as much on the rye as you do, because you've got backset to ferment with?


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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

No, it isn't the backset that helps give the abundance of flavours. It is the Maillard Reaction, Elektro. And the baking that takes place in rye bread is essential to that. So if rye bread is expensive or hard to come by, I wouldn't suggest to replace it with acid malt, rye malt, etc. I would advice to take some broken rye and make the Maillard Reaction happen yourself. Not difficult. Put the 1.5 kilo's from this recipe (only in broken rye this time, 'cause you can't find/afford rye bread) in 1.5 liters of cooking water. Let it cool slowly overnight. Put it in an oven tray. Put alufoil on top to cover. Cook in the oven for 6 hours at 90 degrees C or 194 degrees F. After three hours, add some water. Now when that is done, you will have "Maillardized" your rye just as in the dark, dense rye bread one can find in Holland, in Denmark or in Northern Germany. Use that as a base for the recipe.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

Ok thanks, I was just thinking about the flavour of my rye bread, which is more sour than caramel. I do think I could fake it with a grain bill.

Looking at the amount of gunk in my fermenter I'm definitely tempted to go 1.5 kgs bread next time, if it'll still get me the flavour. Anyway I'll know tomorrow, how much flavour is in the bucket. :)


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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

The Maillard Reaction is something quite different from caramalization. It is a different chemical reaction. Not to be compared to each other. Rye bread isn't caramalized. It has undergone Maillard Reactions. That's what makes the rye bread such an interesting property to work with.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

Ah, yes.. I see what you're saying, thanks for clarifying, Odin. I'm using the two terms loosely, which of course is wrong.

What I meant is my rye tastes more sour than that rich pumpernickel flavour. The standard Danish loaf is only baked for 1 to 2 hours as opposed to the true pumpernickel which I believe sits in the oven for up to 24 h?


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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Dnderhead »

if malt is roasted.....
if you roast dry. just the mallard reaction takes place.(roasted/toasted malt)
if you roast whet ,the starch starts to convert and it caramelizes the sugars. (caramel malt)

if you roast unmalted grain then no conversion can take place ,there for it would not mater if whet or dry
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

The slower the cook, the lower the temp (under water boiling temps) and in an alcalyne environment ... the bigger the reaction. The higher the temp, the more the browning will come from caramalization. Now that does not give the taste and flavor boost that the M. Reaction does.

Dutch rye bread is baked for something like 14 hours, I heared. But the 6 hours (with cooling in hot water before that) will do the trick.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by kaziel »

Any tips about distilling? I can easily buy rye bread (it's almost in every store) so I think I've give this recipe a try (was going for UJSSM but I think this is better for someone like me :) I like rye, never drink anything from/wih corn though). I was thinking of making 65L of wash. Strip 2x25L washes add 10-15L of fresh wash to 2 stripped and make final run. Can I use Saccharomyces cerevisiae instead of baker's yeast? How low in ABV can I go durin distillation? My pot still has 80cm raiser i run internal element can heat up fast and then reduce no thumper. :thumbup:
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Kaziel, if you have this very black, dense rye bread, you will be fine! If you make 65 liters and can distill 25 liters, then I understand your approach: 2 times a striprun, giving you about 15 liters of low wines. Add freshly made beer to increase taste ... but maybe that is not needed. So much taste in there, dilution with wash is not necesairy.

Maybe approach it like this: you have three times 21 / 22 liters. Distill and collect 1/3. You will end up with 3 times 7 liters = 21, maybe 22 liters. These are your low wines. They should be around 30, maybe 32%. Now run this as is in a spirit run.

Cuts should be made by taste and smell. Some general directions? Take maybe 3% of boiler content as fores/heads fraction. That is 3% of (say) 22 liters = 0.66 liters. Next 0.25 keep seperate. Now collect hearts. Untill wet paper, wet dog smell & taste shine thru. Try to stop before that. Maybe at 50%? Maybe 45%? Not sure. Depends on the wash and on the still you are operating.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by kaziel »

Thanks a lot Odin! Today i will buy sugar and bread for first 30L batch. Got second fermenter busy with Rad's "gerber wash" so i will start with one. I will post my results after distillation. Should I add any citric acid/lemon juice to lower the Ph?
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Not needed. Yeasties will lower the PH soon enough.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by bellybuster »

well here';s the results of my attempt, took a sample today and there is absolutely no rye flavour at all. the non-Euro pumpernickel is a flop. Not all lost though, it is still a basic sugar wash.
Just for interest, I tried the standard grocery store made round loaf. It is not baked the same as real Euro style rye bread. They tend to use other ingredients for colour.

I still would like to try this recipe with the proper bread but at $4.99 for a 450gm loaf I'll wait for some expired stuff to go on sale
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Yeah, I think your bread had rye in it, but wasn't exactly what I would call a rye bread.

Don't buy the Euro stuff for 4.99 USD!

Make the MR happen yourself. I posted how to do it, didn't I? For this recipe, take 1.5 kilo's of broken rye, stirr it in 1.5 liters of boiling water. Put the lid on top and let it cool over night. Next day, put it in an oven tray, put aluminium foil over it to cover. Put it in the oven at 194 degrees F for 6 hours. Half way thru, you prolly have to add some more water.

What comes out is "Maillardized" rye and that's what you want!

Your "faillure" is very common. I just made me another batch of this recipe. Or so I thought. I took "all grain rye bread" out of the store. Upon opening, I saw I didn't take the correct variety. This "all grain" has wheat and other stuff added. It is lighter brown. I decided to crumble and cook it anyhow. Gave me a beer that's not even near as brown as the original rye bread ingredients. So I went online, looked into the cooking bill of this sorta rye bread, and it turns out it is only cooked for 2 hours. For me that means: it has been heated at high temps. The lighter browniness comes from caramalization and not from MR. This means it will not get me near to what I want. I am currently starting it up as a seperate batch for vodka.

Keep on trying, Belly! The recipe sure is worth it!

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by bellybuster »

Ya, I'll try forcing MR. I'm quite up on that through my all grain brewing. Funny, all the all grain gear and don't even give a thought to an AG mash to distill.
We have a nice little German rest. here that I'll ask about expired rye, they sell all sorts of specialties. I left Germany in 1993 and still use their mustards.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

Odin, the rye bread I've been using also has all sorts of non-rye related adjuntcs. Which explain why we experience different things. I still think it's a damn fine drink, very easy drinking. I'm curious to your Malliard Rye Whiskey and may go this route for next round, for testings.

On the subject of your "malliardazation" (great new word there) you are gelatinizing your rye before putting it in the oven. Why not, when done with the Malliard treatment, continue in the all grain spirit and just add rye or barley malt and mash it? It's so close to an all grain it's almost a sin to do a sugar head, when so much work and effort has been put into it? (I have to say this, I'm an all grain brewer)..

One could always use sugar for beefing potential alcohol, but a little malt in there never hurt anybody.. :)


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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Drinking some rye bread whiskey as we speak. Or actually ... rye bread in an 1/3, 1/3 combo with red wheat and malted barley UJ. Why? Because taste was too much. Now it is fine. But if I take a sip and close my mouth, I can feel a spicy heat sticking around for a minute at least. Young, very young. If we let this age ... taste will explode again. Even in a 1/3rd solution.

On the topic of going AG with this ... why not? On my first batch, that is what I did. I put the crumbled rye bread in cooking water and cooked it for a bit. Stirring well, I could see the starches seep out into the water. I lowered temp to around 65 degrees C and added enzymes for conversion. Since the carbonhydrate factor in the rye bread was around 40% only and I expected 50% conversion efficiency, I then added some kilo's of sugar.

I think if you combine AG-ing your rye bread, some backset and sugar, you easily hit a sweet spot that is too tasty, too spicey to be drunk as is. My experience so far. This drink needs dilution with other alcohol bases, more neutral, so much taste it has.

It does not geletize. The cooking of the rye bread took care of that.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

I'm getting thirsty now. Fornutately I've got a early watch at the still today.

Just need to feed the kid his oatmeal, drink my coffee and I'm off to rye bread whiskey land. :D


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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Pfff ... and I just woke from rye bread whiskey land. Sipped me a glass or two too many. No head ache (I like tight cuts - no pun intended). But I do feel a little ... wobly?

Anyhow, the drink got better with each glass. Not sure we can contribute that to Maillard, though!

:lolno:

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