First AG Whiskey. Advice Wanted!

[10Gallon]

Hi all, I'm cleaning out the supply locker and need some advice on my grain bill. I have ran with success 32 ujsm and 24 sweet feed mixtures so I have a little experience. Would like to do this in one run but results will tell.

1st: I will be using a 12 gallon kentuckey style pot still.
2nd: I wish to make an all grain whiskey.
3rd: This is the materials I have to make my bill.
25 lbs cracked corn
8 lbs of yellow corn meal(messy)
7 lbs malted corn
2 lbs 2 row
8 lbs bakers yeast

All I have read says the malted corn has 50/50 ratio for the db to be correct.
And the 2 row has db 140 and cracked corn has db of 30. So 2x140=280>9x30=270

I think I'm correct in this but would like some experienced advice:
The 7 lbs of malted corn will convert 7 lbs of cracked corn = 14 lb
the 2 lbs of 2 row should convert 9 lb of cracked corn = 11lb
So I'll need 12.5 gal of water total.

This is my first All grain and am ready to try my hand at Whiskey (No sugar added)
I know to boil my water (?1: should i heat all 12.5 g or save some for cooling), reduce heat to 180 f and slowly add the cracked corn. Stirring and stirring ect for about 2 hrs until it is a thick goo. Then reduce to 148f and add malt.(?2: at this point should I add both the 2 row and the corn malt) pour into cooler and let it sit until 85f, Iodine test, SG reading, then pitch 1.5 cups yeast. Cap and ferment on the grain. When done siphon (?3: of just run thru a 5 gal paint strainer,or both) and distill slowly.

I have read and read and I have so many notes on my desk that I think I am being over cautious. I dont think I am forgetting any steps or have any in the wrong order and I think my math is correct. Before I start I'm just wanting to make sure this is not a failure from the start.
ALL coments are welcome.

[10Gallon]

Ok, no coments so I decided to give it a try. My neighbor came over and gave me another pound of 2 row so here is my updated grain bill and what I did last night.

19 lb cracked corn
7 lb malted corn
3 lb 2 row malt
29lb grain total
18 gal of water
1.5 cup bakers yeast (should do the trick)

I pre soaked the corn for 26 hrs as per some helpful threads on here.

I boiled 13 gallons of water and slowly added the cracked corn consantly stirring. This brought my temp down to 150f and took a loong time to get back up to temp. Once i reached 180f I started the timer and stirred non stop for 2.5 hrs. Man that stuff got thick. I ended up using the drill and a paint paddle to stir.

At 2.5 hrs I was able to let go of the drill and it stood on its own. That was some thick stuff. I shut off the flame and added 1 gallon of room temp water (about 70f) and threw in a few hand fulls of the 2 row. That loosened the glue up quite a bit. I let it cool on its own, still stirring every 10-15 minn to 147f (another 1.5 hrs) then poured the stuff into a cooler and added the corn malt and the 2 row. This really loosened it up but changed the color from an off white to almost baby poo green. stirred well and covered. About every half hour I opened and stirred for about 1 minn each time. Did this for 3 hours. I wrapped a few heavy blankets over and around the cooler and left it for about 20 hrs.

Got home from work today and checked the temp. Still holding at 102f so i added the last 4 gallons of water stired and checked temp down to 95f. Iodine test looks good light reddish, and the stuff has a sweet corn taste. Poured into 30 gallon fermenter and waited for the temp to drop to 80f and pitched 1.5 cups bakers yeast.

It still has an off green color and is prety thick. SG was 1.058 at 80f which is in the ballpark of decent potential. Time will tell.

What I learned:
1) Constant stirring is tireing but well worth it so as not to burn or scorch. I think the pre soak helped there too in both time and scorching.
2) You cant rush it. and as this was my first AG there is nothing like the feeling when the corn turns to goo.
3) Rear read and read. maybe even print off some directions. You WILL forget something. I had to scramble around and find the paint paddle just when I needed it the most.
4) Starch paste tastes nasty!

I will keep posting as this thing works off. I pitched the yeast about 15 minn ago so no action to report as of yet.

[10Gallon]

Checked in on progress this morning and there is about a 2 inch cap formed on top. This stuff is thick. So I guess so far so good. Question I have is should I break openings in the head, stirr it around or just let it go?

[Jimbo]

10G, youre recipe looks good, process fine. All is well. I never mess with it when it starts, just let er run. For wine you wanna punch the cap down, but I dont think you need to mess with it here. Youll just open it up to bugs in the air. cheers.

[newengland]

Hi. Where/how did you get your malted corn?

[10Gallon]

newengland, I malted it myself using whole corn from the feed store. There are many ways to do this but I am fond of dnderheads 2 bucket method. don't have the link but it is under the grains section on the index.

[newengland]

Maybe I will try D's method. I've studied a number of ways but except for my first mash, where I did try my own malted corn, I have used barley malt so as to get predictable results. Thanks.

[10Gallon]

Opened the lid for a peek and the fumes almost knocked me out. My eyes started watering and my nose burnt. It still has the thick cap on it but there are a few little bubble marks on the surface. Quickly covered and left alone. I'm still thinking this is normal.

[Jimbo]

Yup

Friend told me a funny story of taking his kid on a distillery tour. Tour guide opened the lid on a fermenting tank and said anyone want a sniff. The kid stuck his head in and took a big snort fell backwards eyes watering and hollerin. Hasnt been interested in liquor since.

[10Gallon]

I can see why. It really wasn't the smell just the burning feel. Made me remember back in science class. The teacher always told us to open a beaker and wave our hand over the top to get a whiff. Never inhale directly. Wish I had remembered that before hand.

[MitchyBourbon]

Hey 10Gallon,

Sounds like your really goin to town. Sorry I didn't see your post on 3/27. If your numbers good on your malted corn then your grain bill is right on and so is your process.

I almost always ferment off the grain and find I lose a fair amount wort when I strain the wort from the grain. Anyhow, you said you started with a total of 18 gallons water, is that correct?

When you are ready to still could you post how many gallons you got out? No need to measure it, a rough estimate is all I need. I'm just trying to see of there is a difference between the two methods.

Thanks
MB

[Jimbo]

Mitchy, When I ferment on the grain and squeeze afterwards I lose 7.7oz per lb of grain. If thats what youre looking for.

[10Gallon]

Mitchy, I am trying to keep exact notes and update on here as I go along. I'll post how many gal i get off and how much and what proof that provides too. I'd send some pics but they are too big up upload here and i'm not sure how to resize them.

[ohyeahyeah]

In response to MB, fermenting on the grain at 2lb grain/gallon in 2 10 gal fermenters i would get roughly 6gal each recovered after squeezing. Then i'd run a clean gallon of water through to sparge. I know it dillutes it but do stripping runs so i figure it really dont matter. Would strip down both fermenters to about 15 quarts(right down to 10%) then dilute and run off at 80% and only end up with less then a half gallon after cuts.

[Jimbo]

In response to MB, fermenting on the grain at 2lb grain/gallon in 2 10 gal fermenters i would get roughly 6gal each recovered after squeezing. Then i'd run a clean gallon of water through to sparge. I know it dillutes it but do stripping runs so i figure it really dont matter. Would strip down both fermenters to about 15 quarts(right down to 10%) then dilute and run off at 80% and only end up with less then a half gallon after cuts.

How many pounds grain total to give you that 1/2 gallon at 80% after cuts?

[MitchyBourbon]

Thanks everyone,

My loses are similar to yours ohyeahyeah. Jimdo64, if you are squeezing those grains by hand you must have an iron grip! I don't think I wanna shake hands with you.

[10Gallon]

Ok, I woke up this morning and the cap is gone and the wash looks like it has cleared. Havent taken a reading but going to do that today and am making plans on racking it off today. Since i'm using a pot stillmy thought is to run it as soon as i rack it. Any thoughts on that? I'll post the results as I go. Next question should I run it fast and do a stripping run with this or just run it in drip mode?

Checked sg just a hair under(above) 1.000 so maybe 99.08 i'd guess. I started to rack off the clear. I have 10 gal of cleared now and going to use a paint strainer for the last of it because I'm getting down to the solids. I think I'll let all this set for 24 hours then rerack and run it. I don't like to scrubb the pot any more than I have to.

[10Gallon]

Racked off a total of 10 gallons and squeezed out another 2.5 from the paint strainers giving total of 12.5 gallons wash. Letting this settle and then going to run it thru the pot/thumper fast and see what I get.

[MitchyBourbon]

Thanks 10Gallon,

Glad you kept such good notes on your process. Looks to me that the loses you incur with fermenting on the grain are very close to what I experience fermentimg off the grain. The difference is that I lose mine up front when I siphon the wort from the grain.

Thanks again.
MB

[Jimbo]

10G, whats your total water and grain bill that you got 12.5g from?

[10Gallon]

Jim, I started with 18 gallons. I'm sure i lost some in the cooking due to evaporation as it took a loooong time to get it heated and I probably could have squeezed a little more out but it was looking prety muddy. The stuff i squeezed out i put in a seporate bucket. Not sure what to do with all this spent muck. there looks like there is still quite a bit of goodies in it. maybe add some sugar and see what it does. Hate to waste all those yeasties.
Things got busy around here today so I'm going to run this tomorow (monday) night. I'll post my final totals when I get it ran.

[BrooklynTech]

In response to MB, fermenting on the grain at 2lb grain/gallon in 2 10 gal fermenters i would get roughly 6gal each recovered after squeezing. Then i'd run a clean gallon of water through to sparge. I know it dillutes it but do stripping runs so i figure it really dont matter. Would strip down both fermenters to about 15 quarts(right down to 10%) then dilute and run off at 80% and only end up with less then a half gallon after cuts.

How come you are "sparging" after fermenting? That's usually done during the mash when making beer. Or am I confused at what you meant?

[Dnderhead]

been there done that ,,,,don't work....
well it does but you loose a bunch.
unless I can distill on the grain I do not and will not ferment on the grain.
the exception of course is a ferment like UJSSM.
kegs don't really lend well to distilling on grain.all the grain settles to bottom in one place.
and the heat needs to be concentrated in one place.a broad flat bottom is much better,one that a "soft" heat can be spread out,like a pipe burner or maybe barbeque burner(s).

[10Gallon]

Ok from the 12.5 gallons ran in 2 batches fast,this is what I got:

2 pints of fores (put in a container for starting fires)
----------------- Total 1 qt
1 qt 120 proof
1 pt 116 proof
1 qt 110 proof
1 qt 100 proof
----------------- Total 3 1/2 qts
1 qt 90 proof
1 pt 78 proof
1 qt 70 proof
1 qt 60 proof
1 qt 50 proof
2 qt 30 proof
---------------- Total 5 1/2 qts

The 100+ proof I keep for me and guests. Anything lower I collect and do a spirit run when I get 3+ gallons in my small pot still.

Observation: The heads are very hot (strong with bite, I call it the shoulder shudder) but may mellow well on oak.(120-110)

The heart (100) is a little hot but rich with corn flavor and will taste well as a shot here or there.

The tails are VERY strong with the grain flavors and from 50 down I started to get some oils coming thru. I think these will be very flavorfull and more potent when I run them thru again and very slowly.

So I'm not sure if the time and effort is worth doing an all grain or not. As far as Cost it was cheaper than say UJSM. The flavor was by far richer than UJSM. But the ease and finishing speed of UJSM is a big bonus.

As far as quantity and proof I think it is lacking. I usually srart off a higher proof (avg 2 qts 140+) with UJSM but when it hits the 100 proof mark it drops fast. (for the same ammount of wash)

There you have it. My first All Grain Whiskey. But I'll be trying it again I'm sure. (:

[rgarry]

I don't want to derail but have been reading a ton on here about whether to sparge or not. I would think the advantage of sparging is you will get some more sugar and hen fermenting on the grain. Not sparging, the sugars are still there and should ferment but now you need to filter it prior to distilling. Am I missing something (I know I am)

[Dnderhead]

only thing fermenting on the grain the enzymes can still work as it ferments.
this will improve a incomplete conversion.on the other hand it can have more tannins.depending on the grain.

[Jimbo]

tomatoe tomaaatoe

Everyone has their preferred methods, and theyre all valid. I do whiskeys on the grain for teh better conversion and flavor (IMO), have no issue squeezing, and beers I sparge, traditional brewing method. Its up to you, but your opinion will vary on the type of whiskey youre making. If you do all malt, easy to sparge, sticky rolled grains or corn, a pain in the balls (corn) to impossible (rolled barley) to sparge in the traditional sense (false bottom) but Dunders method looks good and prolly works fine.

Edit: To dunders comment on tannins, never noticed an issue. Water never hotter than 145 that touches the grain, I know for brewing, too hot of sparge water (over 175 sparge temp) can leech tannins and create an astringent beer. Also, to Dunders other comment, yes, especially with big chunky cracked corn, them enzymes work a lot of more magic in the week it ferments.

[ohyeahyeah]

In response to MB, fermenting on the grain at 2lb grain/gallon in 2 10 gal fermenters i would get roughly 6gal each recovered after squeezing. Then i'd run a clean gallon of water through to sparge. I know it dillutes it but do stripping runs so i figure it really dont matter. Would strip down both fermenters to about 15 quarts(right down to 10%) then dilute and run off at 80% and only end up with less then a half gallon after cuts.

How come you are "sparging" after fermenting? That's usually done during the mash when making beer. Or am I confused at what you meant?

I do it to rinse all of the alcohol out of the grain just like you would do it to rinse the sugar out if you do it prefermentation. You obviously can't do it before fermentation if you are fermenting on grain. I do 10% so 1 gallon for a 10 gal ferment. Stripping an extra couple gallons isn't a big deal.

I was never a beer brewer(or beer drinker). I began learning brewing as a part of distilling and being a huge bourbon and rye ethusiast i learned to that end where it is traditional to ferment on grain with open fermentation and to not have a second fermentation stage. I see a lot of people on here follow more of traditional beer making methods then whisk(e)y. I don't claim one way is better then the other since i have only done it on grain. I do find the HERMS system interesting and have been considering putting together a system.

I would love to be able to have a steam still for stripping on grain but i have to move out to the country before i could consider that.

[10Gallon]

Coming up on 3 weeks since I cooked this and my mouth is watering. Inital tasting of the 100 and 110 proof jars (after airing for 20 hrs) found a verry flavorful drink un touched. PRIVATE STOCK! I put the rest aside to age with charred oak made a batch of Strawberry and Pineapple Panty Dropper and the rest I just added to glass jugs and cooled down to 110 proof to sip on while I patently wait for the next batch to run. Just cleared my next run, It will be my 8th batch of UJSM form the same yeast. 18 gallons of cleared wash. This recipie just keeps getting better with age. I think I stalled my Sweet Feed batch by adding a little (ok a lot) more molasses than I should have. I added some extra lt brown sugar melted in some warm water. This brought it back to life but not going strong like normal. Have the grain and malt for my next AG just don't have the time to mix it yet.

[Jimbo]

3 weeks, youre almost 25 % to where I think it starts really turning into something special, 4 month point, when it mellows, the raw dog is gone and that head and tails flavor cut in there is gone. Drink other stuff for 3 more months, you wont regret it. Of course longer is better but if oaked proper 4 months is when IMO it shows its true face for the first time.