Making pure whiskey

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Odin
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Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

Hi guys & galls,

I have always found "Making pure corn whiskey", Ian Smiley's book, very inspiring. It is not just a book with clear instrucions on how to build stills (which I am less fond of, since I am not much of a builder), gives detailed information on making a corn wash (even though we cannot get really tasty sweet corn over here), and goes into fractionating a whiskey. Now THAT's the part that intrigued me.

How can you make whiskey using an LM rig? "Well," Ian says, "that's easy. Make a wash, distll it LM style, take a small fores cut, then seperate heads, collect hearts, go for tails. Collect heads&tails in the feints receiver." Nothing new so far. But the magic, he stated, came with run number two. "Do not just run that beer as before, but add the feints." And after that: make it a normal LM run, seperating fores, heads, hearts, and tails as before. But since there is twice as much heads & tails, and you are compressing them in the column, the tastes that normally get out with the heads and tails, now will spill over into the hearts fraction.

Making a full flavoured whiskey at 96%. Or stating it differently: drinking whiskey as much as you want without getting a hang over.

I have done some research on the forum. Many know Ian's book. But nobody seems to be doing his fractionating style of whiskey making. And when I asked, most of the answers I got were like this: "you can make a whiskey with an LM, if you take out most of the packing and open up the needle valve." "De-tuning the system" was a sentence I read a lot, when inquiring about anybody using Ian's method. But the answers weren't about Ian's 96% method, they were about turning your LM into a sorta potstill. And that was not the technique Ian Smiley used.

So, having a great new LM in, I decided not only to test the new rig, but to test Smiley's take on making a whiskey with a fractionating still as well.

I saved heads&tails from yeserdays run, which I added to a fresh wheat base for the wash. One liter of feints on 32 or 33 liters of 10% UJ-style wheat wash.

I fired the LM up, stabilized, drew of fores, stabilized again (30 minutes) and began to draw off heads. End of the story? I now have 1.5 liters of feints and some 3.5 to 4 liters of 50% pure wheat whiskey. Ian Smiley style. So does it work? Can you use a LM, fractionating at 96% and getting over full flavour? Yes, you can. I personally find that very exciting news!

How does the whiskey taste? It tastes great! Sweet, refined, intense, wheaty. It is great as is. I just added brita filtered water and shook the big bottle it is in. I didn't micronize it, I didn't bubble it, I didn't give it an ultrasonic cleaning run, I didn't give it any time to age (stopped stillin' it just a few hours ago), and it tastes great. I don't even feel like putting this stuff on wood. It is so good as it is.

Anybody into taste and having an LM? Please follow the above instructions or read Ian's book. You will be amazed.

Odin.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by rad14701 »

We refer to is as doing a 1.5 spirit run here, where you continually add the feints in with the next wash... I run them regularly... But I don't shoot for ~95% all the time...

I get more flavor in hybrid mode where the spirits start out in the 91% - 92% range and drop to between 80% - 70% when the tails kick in... Those figures would depend on how you run the hybrid setup... And by running this way I lose less flavor when I dilute to drinking strength than if I was to run in strict reflux mode at or near azeotrope throughout the duration of the run... I achieve this by running a short 7" column with 6" of structured packing which gives me more tails to recycle...
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by okie »

That's real good information to have, right there.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by F6Hawk »

I'll give it a try this next run, Odin. I have a SF wash that is nearly done, and the feints sitting nearby.

So I understand you correctly... I am to run this in reflux mode, with the packing in, treating it the same as a neutral run? So even if I run it slow enough to get 90~93% ABV, I will still have flavor?

I think I know what you mean... I was surprised when I did this my last BW run. I ran it a bit faster, with only 72% coming off, but it tasted sweet to me. Yet the wash was very dry at .990. When I mix this with mango/orange juice, I get a hint of flavor that's not there in store vodka. Or maybe it's just normal for 70% ABV spirits, though I doubt it, because I use half what I normally do to make my drinks.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by mash rookie »

Odin, I recently responded to Lampshade in a PM that I think addresses this very subject. I will paste rather than re state. Consider that all fractions are in the wash no matter what still is used.

MR, I was intrigued by your statement that you get great whiskey with a packed column. I assume this means you are using a standard VM or LM (or CM). If so, that contradicts all that I have read, which is that packed columns make a neutral whiskey and that to get flavored whiskey, you must use a pot still, flute, or a detuned packed column.
How do you operate your packed column to make flavored whiskey?

My responce.

Understanding is evolving fast as hobbyists have options past a pot still and Boka.
Pot stills being the least efficient stills are the worst at being able to concentrate heads or separate hearts and tails during a run, they can make great whiskey when double or triple distilled and making careful cuts each time.

Flutes are pretty new to the scene and very few get what is happening there. Because of a reflux condenser they will make pretty high ABV but fraction separation is limited by the actual plate count. The result is smearing of tails into the hearts and a heavy tasting product. Great for one run and done whiskey or rum. Not so good for neutral.

Its pretty simple Lampshade. All of the fractions including flavor congeners are there in the wash no matter which still you run. Any still with a reflux condenser can do a pretty good job of concentrating heads to avoid them smearing into the hearts. Where a plated column suffers a packed column shows its worth. Because packing provides an efficient HETP, equilibrium is easily established and reasonably well maintained throughout a run.
Fractions finding there home do not smear and come off cleanly in the order of their BP.
All fractions and flavor congeners are there. Careful blending can make a better whiskey than any post still because you have absolute control of blending. (smearing)
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

@F6,

Yes, fractionate them. That's the intriging part of it. Don't run her faster, run slower. Try to get the maximum abv. I know it sounds contradicting, but ... it works.

@MR,

Thanks for sharing. I think lots of different flavours travel up (hitch hiking) with various alcohols. More fruity notes with lower boiling point alcohols, more earthy notes with the higher bp alcs. If you use a potstill and make cuts, heads & tails alwasy smear into hearts. With a fractionating device you can seperate fractions much better. And if you do that, take carefull cuts, you end up with hearts fraction that has less taste. Just because (to a whiskey) essential taste elements are completely taken out by cutting for heads and tails. I think one can take parts of these fractionated heads & tails and add them to the fractionated hearts and regain taste.

But that is not what is happening here. I did not mix heads and tails with my hearts.

@All,

On the second run I took cuts again. And having a fully supervised/automated still now, I can stabilize and re-stabilize very easily. I drew off heads as long as temps went up but were under presure recalculated boiling point for azeotropic ethanol/water solution (96.5%). Heads and tails fraction became a bit bigger than on run 1, but not by factor 2 (more like 1.2). I think that makes sense, since in heads a large fraction of the alcohol is still ethanol. Boiling temps of heads are not like 51 degrees C for that nail polish remover, than 64% for methano, than 77% for ethyl acetate. I see the column (on this run) stabilize on something like 76 degrees C, while the actual bp for azeo ethanol is like 78.5 degrees. It is the mixture of headsy components with ethanol that give the lower temp when drawing of heads.

Maybe more available low bp alcs on run 2 make them stack more easily or relatively denser (so with less ethanol). And somehow bleeding them of makes taste molecules (but not the actual low bp alc) transgress into the hearts fraction.

But isn't something like that happening in a flute as well? Heads compression, tails compression and hearts at 90% ... but still full of taste. At the same time, we know that in a potstill we would be starting to miss out on taste at around 80% abv or slightly higher.

Well, that's how I look at it!

Odin.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by F6Hawk »

Ok, I'm starting the keg now. I'll run it slow as a reflux run. Worst thing will happen is I will end up with vodka instead of SF whisky. Either way, I'll gladly drink it!
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

Your first run will be a vodka. But safe the heads & tails and mix them in with the next run.

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by danmiz »

Interesting. I'm gonna give it a go.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by okie »

I'm trying to understand this. You are saying I can make a better scotch with a packed column reflux VM or LM still than I can on a pot still which goes against everything I've learned here in this forum up to this thread.

Interesting......... :roll: :roll:

I'd have to have a taste test with scotch from each type of still to believe it. It's just I'm going to have to say I'm from Missouri now...show me.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by mash rookie »

Odin,
I am looking forward to more reports of how the new still performs and if you decide to pull the trigger and buy it. Every still will run a little different and will require a learning curve to operate it to maximum efficiency.

I will argue that the statement offered by brandy distillers that fruity tastes are in lower BP fractions. I think that head alcohols including ethyl acetate have a sweet flavor allowing them to get away with including them.
Again, Flutes can do a good job of compressing heads run properly but DO NOT compress tails. Fraction separation of hearts and tails is limited by the number of physical plates.

When I distill neutral, I run my speed for maximum ABV and make the same cuts as any run. When I run UJ, or whiskey I can do the exact same protocol or run faster. I have 10 collection vessels on both runs.

When blending neutral I might include the jar that still has a little heads taste, add all hearts, then avoid even early tails at all cost.

When blending UJ or any whiskey, I avoid even late heads at all cost. After adding all hearts I dilute to oaking strength. I then start adding tail fractions that have the very rich flavors desired in whiskey or rum. I often end up adding all of my tails. Recently I have gone to a less sour run (backset) I favor of late tail flavoring.

Mt point again is that a still that does a better job of separating fractions during take off allows better control during blending. Fractions are always there. Do you want the still to decide how they are used or do you want to?
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by wv_cooker »

I have all the heads and tails of my first run of UJ and my second Gen should be ready tomorrow or the next day I'll try this as it is exciting to me as all I have is an LM. Thanks Odin and were excited about the new still as well. Have been following closely.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

Beware of not putting to much feints in. About 1 liter of feints for every 20 liter wash you fractionate. And if you run that wash in one go (no stripping), you get over a slightly rougher, more interesting whiskey.

Don't forget to make a small cut for fores as always. They don't belong in feints. Some 30 mls to 50 mls on a 20 liter wash.

LM's can do this trick, most VM's can't. Vapour density makes it difficult to collect tails, since density of air/alcohol becomes heavier than air at around 86%.

Mash, interesting to see our difference in approaches. You blend on bot taste rich and neutrals. On neutrals I don't. I just seperate heads and then collect hearts until tails appear. Two collection vessels: hearts and feints.

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by F6Hawk »

How are you making your heads/tails cuts, Odin? Today, I collected over 100ml of fores (I know, only 30-50 needed, but I needed some extra to clean the garage floor), then I collected 2 ea. 200 ml jars to taste for heads. Then 2 500ml jars where I know the hearts should be. Then 250ml, 200ml, and cut to a new jar when the temp jumped, and collected about 150ml before I stopped.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

If you can monitor temp in the upper part of the column it is easy. Stabilize the column. Temps should be below azeotropic bp of pure 96.5% ethanol, since lower bp alcohols are in the mix. Slowly draw off after stabilization. You will see the temp crawl up slowly. When temp does not creep up no more, this should mean you hit the pure ethanol and most of the lower bp alcs are drawn off. By smell: when it stops smelling fruity. End of hearts: when you close the needle valve so much that almost nothing comes out or when temps are risting. For tails: open up a bit more and collect some more at higher pace. The last part of the alcohol can remain in the pot. At tails and hearts together and save them. The more you get, makes it possible to play with some more or some less. To suit your taste. And keep the first generation hearts (still a vodka) for diluting run 2 or 3, to get a blended whiskey. You might want that, because taste of this whiskey can be pretty overpowering.

Edit: my 1 liter feints per 20 liter fresh wash is for fractionated heads & tails. If you use heads & tails from a potstill section, they are less concentrated (more diluted with ethanol and water), so you can up it with factor 3 at least. That factor three is a rough gut feeling estimate. Could be a bit more or less, but that's what I would start with.

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

Tails: in a hand operated LM: collect until 82 degrees C. Beyond you get really unwanted congeners that won't make next generations of whiskey better.

For more reading from the man who gave the inspiration:

http://curezone.com/upload/Members/Chaz ... illers.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by F6Hawk »

How much do you mean by a slow crawl? Today I was using a thermo that only measured whole degrees. Do I need one that shows tenths?
I think another run or two and I will have it...
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

I measure in 0.1 degrees. And I think that is (apart from tasting) very good in helping you make cuts. With a 0.1 degree scale, you see temps creep up. With a 1 degree scale, you don't. One time it is 77, next time it is 78 degrees C.

Take-off speed as per normal LM operation. 1 drip per sec. on fores, 2 drips on heads, 3 on hearts ...

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by baron4406 »

Odin, your becoming my best friend on this site- you really make a man think...lol. Basically I did a huge amount of runs in my simple pot still last year, this year I was gonna construct another simple pot that utilized a thumper- I want the best possible whiskey. BTW I just had another ringing endorsement of my UJSSM runs last year at a party I was at saturday. "Incredible" "I never drink whiskey but this is awesome". That's 6 month old , glass bottle charred oak aged swill. So my goal was to make even better all grain stuff this year. However I still wanna make neutrals. So I was also gonna build a 3" Boka to run with my new electric setup. Now your are telling me my pot still isn't needed for great whiskey?? Am I in an alternate universe? All I need is my 3" Boka??? Keep this thread going, my mind is blown here.
I'm just wondering how this jives with the way I did runs last year. Basically it was a strip run, then I'd take those low wines and run them with my next wash. The feints from my spirit run went back into my next stripping run. So I was basically redistilling my feints everytime. I was doing this strip-run-strip for awhile them my feints started getting nasty so I ended up throwing away alot of heads and early tails. On my runs deep in the tails around the 40% range down to 35% range there was always a nice, flavorful patch that I would then use to dilute my hearts to aging strength. It sounds like this system is basically what I was doing only I was adding my low wines +redistilled feints to the next spirit runs. So running the exact same way this year should work with the 3" Boka only I should get better separation of heads and tails. We will see
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

The funniest thing is not that you will make a full flavour whiskey in your boka, but that it is ready to go when you are done distilling. Okay, it does benefit from 5 weeks rest, but that's about it. And - hey - if it is resting ... why not put those JD chips MR introduced us with in as well? But even without wood, it tastes amazing. How I know? Well, I only drank it as is so far. I am microwaving some American white oak stave (medium plus toast) at half of the quantity as we speak. Maybe even funier: with your boka you can simplify the process. No need to strip. Just distill the wash with added feints from the previous run. If you strip, you will still get a great drink, but it will be slightly more ... polished? The "straight from the wash" gives it somehow some extra potency. A little bit of that hair on the chest thing that likker is (also) about.

Glad you like the tread. Good to see it pick up speed.

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by baron4406 »

I did the JD chips thing last year, to terrible results lol. I ended with with some black tar looking hootch that tasted horrible. He said in his thread you could use any amount of chips you wanted, so I filled it half way. IMHO that was way too much. It was in the attic of my garage last summer that had wild temp swings everyday. It did wonders for my standard aged UJSSM (2 or 3 charred oak pieces per gallon) but no so much the chips. I'm willing to try again this year only using alot less chips. BTW that black tar UJSSM went into the still and was the last batch of UJSSM I made last year, it was , by far, the most flavorful batch I made all year. Its currently been on oak for 9 months and looks great/tastes great. So there is no ruined booze in my book, just re-run it.
I'm gonna be trying this when I finish my electric setup. Meanwhile your rye bread recipe is cooking as we speak. That's gonna run on my pot.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

I wouldn't go past 20% with those chips. And I prefer them bigger blocks even better. JD Staves. Toast your own Wacabi sticks ... that's the best.

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by heartcut »

Very interesting. I make 1 run whiskey in a detuned copper scrubby packed 2 1/2" column using a dephlegmater, heat, stack for 20 min, take fores really slowly, heads a little faster and 160 proof hearts at 3+ l/hr. When the tails just start, increase dephleg flow and heat keeping ~160 proof till it slows to a crawl, then minimum reflux to 20%, usually 1/2l out of a 12 gal charge. The flavor during the last part of the run is really intense and mixes with the hearts to give nice, full flavored whiskey (and rum, same procedure). It's drinkable right away but is lots better after some time on wood. I use 15-20 grams of lightly charred JD chips per liter at 1-2 months maceration, then strain it out. I've had people react to this like it's blasphemy, (unless they taste the product). Good to read another view of reflux whiskey. Thanks.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

Thank you for sharing, Heartcut! I deduce from your numbers, you collect at a higher rate, with the needle valve opened pretty much, right? To get you to that 160 proof mark? I just let the rig run as normal, on a vodka run. Heat up to a boil (45 minutes), heat up column (25 minutes), toss out first fores, stabilize for 30 minutes, see temp drop until 22 to 23 minutes are gone. Draw off heads. Re-stabilize, collect hearts, etc. I set the automation such that I stopped collecting hearts at temperature at the bottom of the 98.5 degrees C. Temp at the top is always ethanol azeo. When the income temperature at the bottom was reached (98.5 C), it stopped. I then switched to potstill mode to collect half a liter of tails.

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by heartcut »

My reflux still is a bit unusual, but it works well. Propane on a 1/2 keg. I suppose everything except the position of the reflux coil is similar in layout.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

Looks like a cm, Heartcut.

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Devonhomebrew »

Adding in all the feints to the pot for scotch with mash running it pot still seems like it is gonna make more flavour than in reflux mode. I always thought reflux was for 95-96% neutral with no flavour at all? :crazy:
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

Add feints from previous fractionating run to next batch. Fractionate that batch as well at 96%. Make cuts. Hearts will be a pure whiskey.

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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by baron4406 »

Starting to make a little more sense now Odin, I'm recalling reading here guys savings all their feints up then making an all feints run and remarking that its some of the best whiskey they have made. So then are you trying to say the difference between a neutral and whiskey is the wash itself? Or if you want to just make a neutral do NOT throw any feints in for your run? BTW there is some great reading in that Ian Smiley book, however some of the things he says in there contradict that is said here.Still very good reading, I love how he made a still out of a hot water heater.
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Re: Making pure whiskey

Post by Odin »

Make a neutral, use a neutral wash. Want to make a vodka? Use a taste rich wash and cut for heads & tails. Want to make a whiskey? Add extra feints to taste rich wash and fractionate, taking cuts. Tastes from heads & tails will blend into your middle run, giving you a whiskey instead of a vodka.

That's about it.

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