Making pure whiskey
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Re: Making pure whiskey
I have been running my uj this way for the last 5 runs ,but im collecting at around 80% on my cm. The flavor really comes out when it gets proofed down to 40%. I drink it white more than any other way now. My buddies say the taste and quality has come a long way since my first run last year.
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Re: Making pure whiskey
To collect the tails on a spirit run must I use an LM (bokakob in my case). I really like the speed and quality I am getting from VM, but as you say this is not good to get into tails.Odin wrote: The trick to a Pure Whiskey is that you collect at 95%+. With added feints for taste transfer..
Is there a way to adapt Smiley's LM spirit run with extra tails when using a VM?
I pot strip wash for low wines.
Fractionate low wines on VM for hearts on a tight cut.
All my tails are still there in the boiler shite, which measures 10% ABV. so can I retain that as tails? Either I add it to my next spirit run, or better add it to my next wash stripping run?
I tried Smiley's method on the bokakob for rum, there is a big problem since early tails are quite foul fusels. So adding tails back into the spirit run is a big mistake, the fusels just double. Late rum tails are very good, but the only way I found to collect these while discarding the fusels was to run the VM boiler shite back as a strip on the potstill. This on an easy rough cut gave me the flavoursome late tails, discarded the foul fusels of early tails (which are so awful they must pollute a column packing) which I add into the next low wines (stripped wash).
That experience with rum is why I ask if it could work to extract those tails from low wines simply by stripping the remains of the spirit run, then add them to the next stripped wash/low wines?
Re: Making pure whiskey
I'm glad to hear someone else talk about early oily tails being followed by great tails.
I do it all on a VM. Have no0 trouble getting tails. But it takes power and time.
I do it all on a VM. Have no0 trouble getting tails. But it takes power and time.
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Re: Making pure whiskey
Sorry if I missed it, but Odin said you can use an LM but not a VM to do this. What about a CM?
Goodbye.
Re: Making pure whiskey
I guess as long as you can stabilize for heads and get over 96% you will be fine with a CM.
Odin.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
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Re: Making pure whiskey
Can I ask again. As Dad says it takes time and energy to trickle into long tails. Am I crazy to think: take those 96% hearts and stop. Doesn't matter VM CM LM. Stop stilling at the end of hearts. Transfer remaining pot ale containing all those tails, still ABV 10%, and run them all with the next strip. That pushes up the tails in the next low wines for the smiley effect on next hearts. It also allows a rough cut on the strong and weak tails.
Eg
For fruit brandies and rum the weak rails are needed to blend with clean reflux hearts. Strong tails get discarded. I add them to neutrals for treating with KMNO4 and CaCO3
For whiskey the strong tails are wanted in the next reflux with low wines. Weak tails get recycled with wash in the next strip. That is what I understood the distilleries do too.
Where tails are wanted for flavour, yes they can be extracted then blended. But is Smiley not implying that boosting the tails in low wines reflux AND in the wash strip is preferable. What is wrong with dumping all the tails back into a strip run without bothering to extract them from the pot shite?
Eg
For fruit brandies and rum the weak rails are needed to blend with clean reflux hearts. Strong tails get discarded. I add them to neutrals for treating with KMNO4 and CaCO3
For whiskey the strong tails are wanted in the next reflux with low wines. Weak tails get recycled with wash in the next strip. That is what I understood the distilleries do too.
Where tails are wanted for flavour, yes they can be extracted then blended. But is Smiley not implying that boosting the tails in low wines reflux AND in the wash strip is preferable. What is wrong with dumping all the tails back into a strip run without bothering to extract them from the pot shite?
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Re: Making pure whiskey
Is this stuff settling nicely in its jars now, waiting to be tasted? I finally found a source for my copper today, and am debating whether to stick with the pot or go for the Boka. A flute is out of my price range (and skill) right now, the Nixon-Stone seems outclassed, and I'm still researching the pono.Odin wrote:What I'd like to compare is the following:
a. Taste comparison of white potdistilled whiskey (2) and white fractionated whiskey (6) at 45% after three days;
b. Taste comparison of white potdistilled whiskey (2) and white fractionated whiskey (6) at 45% after five weeks;
c. Taste comparison of white potdistilled whiskey (2) and white fractionated whiskey (6) at 45% after four months;
d. Taste comparison of wood aged potdistilled whiskey (3) and wood aged fractionated whiskey (7), both diluted to 45%, after four months
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Re: Making pure whiskey
Have a look at this thread on condenser controlled VM columns.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768
I just made a 3" Easier by far than my bokakob and half the price of my 2" copper VM
Good whiskey does have a pure heart, some of the better Irish whiskeys blend refluxed hearts with potstill tails/smeared hearts
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768
I just made a 3" Easier by far than my bokakob and half the price of my 2" copper VM
Good whiskey does have a pure heart, some of the better Irish whiskeys blend refluxed hearts with potstill tails/smeared hearts
Re: Making pure whiskey
About 5 weeks ago I had a course here in Amsterdam. Master Distiller of MacAllan's Single Malt ... and a few of his associates. And a few English gin makers. A guy from Belgium. Another distiller from the Netherlands.
So, at the end of the course I poure some samples. McA goes grazy on my single malt. The guys from England love my pure whiskey even though I find it rather one dimensional. I share ... they say: "we like it more than the single malt!"
Grazy?
Yes, for sure.
Pure whiskey may not be to everyone's liking, but if you come from a "pure" perspective (vodka, gin), you may love it.
Now please give me some examples of you trying it and succeeding. I need some stash. Mine is all but finished.
Odin.
So, at the end of the course I poure some samples. McA goes grazy on my single malt. The guys from England love my pure whiskey even though I find it rather one dimensional. I share ... they say: "we like it more than the single malt!"
Grazy?
Yes, for sure.
Pure whiskey may not be to everyone's liking, but if you come from a "pure" perspective (vodka, gin), you may love it.
Now please give me some examples of you trying it and succeeding. I need some stash. Mine is all but finished.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Re: Making pure whiskey
Odin,
I have what will be about 40-45L of ujssm I am going to try this on (House is cooler so taking longer to ferment). I also have 2.5G of feints from running my boka as a pot still. What you think? I see earlier you mentioned about 3L of feints per 20l of wash for this method as a gut feel. I'm thinking of putting 1.5G of the feints into the batch and running it out in full reflex and make some " Pure Whiskey"
Thoughts? Its a toss up either that or use the feints for your gin
B
I have what will be about 40-45L of ujssm I am going to try this on (House is cooler so taking longer to ferment). I also have 2.5G of feints from running my boka as a pot still. What you think? I see earlier you mentioned about 3L of feints per 20l of wash for this method as a gut feel. I'm thinking of putting 1.5G of the feints into the batch and running it out in full reflex and make some " Pure Whiskey"
Thoughts? Its a toss up either that or use the feints for your gin
B
Re: Making pure whiskey
I'd use it for a pure whiskey ...
Odin.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
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Re: Making pure whiskey
Odin, have you tried this with your Kellogs corn whiskey? What were the results like?
John 2:1-11. Jesus saith unto them, 'Fill the waterpots with water, some sugar & tomato paste'. And they filled them up to the brim and Jesus transformed them into low wines and this manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
Re: Making pure whiskey
Pretty one dimensional. It is better with all grain.
Regards, Odin.
Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Re: Making pure whiskey
I had had some problems with bad cuts on my double pot stilled whiskeys. Running a mash 1x on pot still, then combining those low wines with another 10 gal mash and running it on the flute to the tune of 88-90% made the cuts VERY apparent and the whiskey very good.
Too early to tell if I am "missing" anything depth wise, as I was pretty aggressive with cuts and put a lot in the feints jar for next time, but this is looking like it might be something special. Thankful for the alternative path to a good whiskey!
Too early to tell if I am "missing" anything depth wise, as I was pretty aggressive with cuts and put a lot in the feints jar for next time, but this is looking like it might be something special. Thankful for the alternative path to a good whiskey!
Re: Making pure whiskey
Odin,
Since I went electric I made a run with the UJSSM washes I had from when it got to cold to run last fall/winter. I also had 2.5G of fients from UJSSM.
Hoping to make cuts on it this weekend. Typically how narrow or wide are you cuts on this compared to pot stilling? I know the LM compresses the heads and tails lots more...
I tossed 250-300ml for a foreshot
Got about 20 pints
Then switched to 1/2 gallon jars for the tails and opened things up. got 1400 and 600ml in tails jars.
Normally when I run the boka as a pot I get from 45-58% as keepers.. Should I use this a a general guide... Or do you make wider cuts. After the heads jars tasted a couple drops and its not bad at all... Also towards the tails its not bad either ... There is 1 jar int he early tails that does nto taste great but the following jar has lots of corn flavor in it.. After that is goes down hill. Nothing is cloudy except the last 600ml thats 30%.
I going to go by taste.. just curious your normal cuts in comparison to pot stilling? All in all should have a decent amount to again. The center of the hearts are almost vodka, very clean tasting.
B
Since I went electric I made a run with the UJSSM washes I had from when it got to cold to run last fall/winter. I also had 2.5G of fients from UJSSM.
Hoping to make cuts on it this weekend. Typically how narrow or wide are you cuts on this compared to pot stilling? I know the LM compresses the heads and tails lots more...
I tossed 250-300ml for a foreshot
Got about 20 pints
Then switched to 1/2 gallon jars for the tails and opened things up. got 1400 and 600ml in tails jars.
Normally when I run the boka as a pot I get from 45-58% as keepers.. Should I use this a a general guide... Or do you make wider cuts. After the heads jars tasted a couple drops and its not bad at all... Also towards the tails its not bad either ... There is 1 jar int he early tails that does nto taste great but the following jar has lots of corn flavor in it.. After that is goes down hill. Nothing is cloudy except the last 600ml thats 30%.
I going to go by taste.. just curious your normal cuts in comparison to pot stilling? All in all should have a decent amount to again. The center of the hearts are almost vodka, very clean tasting.
B
Re: Making pure whiskey
So kept 10 the jars (1/2 them not including the additional 2 1/2g jars already flagged as tails). Ended up with just under 2 gallons on oak @ 62.5% after cutting. It seams smoother than the UJSSM I have run.
B
B
Re: Making pure whiskey
Is it possible that Odin has semi-select tails with pure whiskey method?
Let's imagine, that iStill compress twice as good fractions as a potstill and imagine that there are two components lying 1 st. dev. and 2 st. dev. past the tail cut. Let 1st fraction be good fraction and 2nd be bad fraction.
By making cut, Odin gets 1/6 th of 1st and 1% of 2nd.
Next time, he get's 1/6 th of 11/6 of the 1st and 1% of 199% of the 2nd. Essentially he get's close to double the 1st fraction and next to nothing the 2nd.
Mr. Potstill gets aproximately 1/2 of both fractions.
By repeating, both, Odin and Mr. Potstill may get same amount of tails, but very different composition of the fractions within tails.
It would be easy to test the theory while doing rum. One should try to identify bad fraction and collect tails after the bad fraction (aka. rum oils).
For example, running couple of "clean" spirit runs collecting just hearts and saving tails. Afterwards run single spirit run with all saved faints and carefully collect rum oils while disposing the bad tails. At the end mix back "clean" hearts with good tails.
If I am correct, one should get really good rum.
Let's imagine, that iStill compress twice as good fractions as a potstill and imagine that there are two components lying 1 st. dev. and 2 st. dev. past the tail cut. Let 1st fraction be good fraction and 2nd be bad fraction.
By making cut, Odin gets 1/6 th of 1st and 1% of 2nd.
Next time, he get's 1/6 th of 11/6 of the 1st and 1% of 199% of the 2nd. Essentially he get's close to double the 1st fraction and next to nothing the 2nd.
Mr. Potstill gets aproximately 1/2 of both fractions.
By repeating, both, Odin and Mr. Potstill may get same amount of tails, but very different composition of the fractions within tails.
It would be easy to test the theory while doing rum. One should try to identify bad fraction and collect tails after the bad fraction (aka. rum oils).
For example, running couple of "clean" spirit runs collecting just hearts and saving tails. Afterwards run single spirit run with all saved faints and carefully collect rum oils while disposing the bad tails. At the end mix back "clean" hearts with good tails.
If I am correct, one should get really good rum.
Re: Making pure whiskey
Crazybean,
I'm interested in Odins response but honestly the reflux tails are sooo compressed be hard to be selective after the first run were you collect your first tails.
B
I'm interested in Odins response but honestly the reflux tails are sooo compressed be hard to be selective after the first run were you collect your first tails.
B
Re: Making pure whiskey
Yeah, it sounds interesting, but my gut feeling says that they just get more compressed. That means that even the "transition" from early to later Tails would be the same as in a potstill, just in a shorter time.
regards, Odin.
regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Re: Making pure whiskey
Update on the UJSSM I ran. Its very nice super smooth for just 1 year old.
I oak'd it lighter than other batches and it was a good thing. Its so smooth too much oak would have over powered it. I have another gallon of slightly over oaked ujssm that's close to 2 years that I took wider cuts on thinking will blend the 2 will be a nice balance!
B
I oak'd it lighter than other batches and it was a good thing. Its so smooth too much oak would have over powered it. I have another gallon of slightly over oaked ujssm that's close to 2 years that I took wider cuts on thinking will blend the 2 will be a nice balance!
B
Re: Making pure whiskey
maybe a bit of necro posting since the thread is so old, but what the hell!
'Been stillin for half a year, With 3 years study in preparation.
Found this thread quite intriguing along With the ujssm thread, so after some preliminary successful attempts on neutral With birdwatcher wash I decided to go for Odins Version of pure whiskey on a ujssm approach.
I found the first gen quite bland and recycled as neutral along With a bw strip. Used all feints in second gen. Got a little more taste, now getting some flavor, but not enough. Third gen, same procedure, first attempt worthy of oaking. Got quite decent after a few weeks. Fourth gen, wow! gettin' some! starting to get really good after a month on oak. Fifth gen, really, really getting some flavor, very sweet and mellow whiskey'ish flavor. Always recycled all feints from previous generations.
Stopped after Fifth gen to reuse yeastbed for neutral for gin. "stripped" the Wash and saved feints from two batches without backset along With most of the Fifth backset. After the ongoing gin Experiment and the oncoming rum Experiment I will start a New ujssm'ish Wash without the flaked corn i used and use all malt With pilsner and some peat smoked malt along With the Fifth gen backset and all the feints. Hope to get a slightly smoky full body whisky of some sort.
Anybody With any input of the percentage of peatsmoked malt?
Also anybody sharing my experience on recycling all feints for five generations to get full flavor?
Must add that cuts have been typically on a 25L batch (17-18L Wash) 0,5L heads and collecting tails up to 95 degrees c in the still head. My still is LM/VM where I use LM for fores, heads and tail Collection and VM for body. Have a 4 feet column packed With polish SPP which seems to compress heads and tails extremely good.
'Been stillin for half a year, With 3 years study in preparation.
Found this thread quite intriguing along With the ujssm thread, so after some preliminary successful attempts on neutral With birdwatcher wash I decided to go for Odins Version of pure whiskey on a ujssm approach.
I found the first gen quite bland and recycled as neutral along With a bw strip. Used all feints in second gen. Got a little more taste, now getting some flavor, but not enough. Third gen, same procedure, first attempt worthy of oaking. Got quite decent after a few weeks. Fourth gen, wow! gettin' some! starting to get really good after a month on oak. Fifth gen, really, really getting some flavor, very sweet and mellow whiskey'ish flavor. Always recycled all feints from previous generations.
Stopped after Fifth gen to reuse yeastbed for neutral for gin. "stripped" the Wash and saved feints from two batches without backset along With most of the Fifth backset. After the ongoing gin Experiment and the oncoming rum Experiment I will start a New ujssm'ish Wash without the flaked corn i used and use all malt With pilsner and some peat smoked malt along With the Fifth gen backset and all the feints. Hope to get a slightly smoky full body whisky of some sort.
Anybody With any input of the percentage of peatsmoked malt?
Also anybody sharing my experience on recycling all feints for five generations to get full flavor?
Must add that cuts have been typically on a 25L batch (17-18L Wash) 0,5L heads and collecting tails up to 95 degrees c in the still head. My still is LM/VM where I use LM for fores, heads and tail Collection and VM for body. Have a 4 feet column packed With polish SPP which seems to compress heads and tails extremely good.
Re: Making pure whiskey
Glad you had your success with this approach. Congrats.
Odin.
Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
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Re: Making pure whiskey
Question - on first run, why I can’t I just run it hard, like a stripping run? What’s the difference between collecting feints separately and then adding it all back together in the second run?
John 2:1-11. Jesus saith unto them, 'Fill the waterpots with water, some sugar & tomato paste'. And they filled them up to the brim and Jesus transformed them into low wines and this manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
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Re: Making pure whiskey
Sure you can. In fact, no need to make cuts on a stripping run, unless you want to pull a small foreshots cut off and dispose.Patching246 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:34 am Question - on first run, why I can’t I just run it hard, like a stripping run? What’s the difference between collecting feints separately and then adding it all back together in the second run?
So, when you get to the spirit run (with the stripping runs' low wines), THEN make your cuts and do what you will with the feints. This sounds like a good plan!
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
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My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Re: Making pure whiskey
If you know you need some hearts for sipping without aging then it might make sense to do cuts on both the stripping and spirit runs but other than needing a "quick fix" you should just strip down to 10% or so on the stripping run after throwing out foreshots and collecting everything, then when you have enough stripped do a spirit run where you make your proper cuts.
In any event save your heads and tails for the next run or label them and stick them on wood as well. You can always blend some of the heads and tails back with your hearts if they age well.
Carlo
In any event save your heads and tails for the next run or label them and stick them on wood as well. You can always blend some of the heads and tails back with your hearts if they age well.
Carlo
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
Re: Making pure whiskey
On the first run, if you have say an LM, go high power with lots of reflux and bring your beer to 95%. Stabilize, take off heads. Collect hearts as close to 95% as possible. Now collect tails, just like heads, with lower reflux setting and at lower abv. Discard remains in the boiler. Clean things out. Fill boiler with fresh beer, add the heads and tails from the first run to the beer. Do the second run as the first run. The recycling of heads and tails will create taste transfer into hearts. And that is how you create pure whiskey.
Regards, Odin.
Regards, Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
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Re: Making pure whiskey
Sorry, I misunderstood- thanks for clarification. With regards to the tails, can I just open the still up and run it is hard or should I take my time collecting the tales through to 82c?
John 2:1-11. Jesus saith unto them, 'Fill the waterpots with water, some sugar & tomato paste'. And they filled them up to the brim and Jesus transformed them into low wines and this manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
Re: Making pure whiskey
Higher opening is ok on the first run. On the second one, you want to keep on being very stable and pure throughout all factions, to keep the bad headsy and tailsy alcohols at bay, while blending associated esters over into hearts.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Re: Making pure whiskey
I'm curious by the name of this thread "pure whiskey" when by definition (TTB/USA) it would not be a whiskey at all due to how high it's ran off the still.
Whiskey: Spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain at less than 95% alcohol by volume (190 proof) having the taste, aroma and characteristics generally attributed to whisky and bottled at not less than 40% alcohol by volume (80 proof).
As soon as you break 190 proof you are no longer in the whiskey territory but in the grain neutral category. Seems to me with the feints mixed back in on purpose it's just flavored "neatral". In either case it would seem to produce a "thin" bodied spirit whiskey (whiskey-flavored vodka).
It wouldn't technically even be a "light whiskey" which can be distilled from 160 to 190 proof.
"Pure Whiskey" to me is something distilled at under 160 proof for full body, is made from only grains and nothing else and has been aged on oak.
Whiskey: Spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain at less than 95% alcohol by volume (190 proof) having the taste, aroma and characteristics generally attributed to whisky and bottled at not less than 40% alcohol by volume (80 proof).
As soon as you break 190 proof you are no longer in the whiskey territory but in the grain neutral category. Seems to me with the feints mixed back in on purpose it's just flavored "neatral". In either case it would seem to produce a "thin" bodied spirit whiskey (whiskey-flavored vodka).
It wouldn't technically even be a "light whiskey" which can be distilled from 160 to 190 proof.
"Pure Whiskey" to me is something distilled at under 160 proof for full body, is made from only grains and nothing else and has been aged on oak.
Programmer specializing in process control for ExxonMobil (ethanol refinery control), WT, Omron, Bosch, Honeywell & Boeing.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
More than a decade working for NASA & FAA Tech with computer code used on Space Shuttles and some airline flight recorders.
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Re: Making pure whiskey
But surely, on second run, after I’ve carefully drawn my heads and the hearts, all that is left is tails, so why not open her up again for the third run?
John 2:1-11. Jesus saith unto them, 'Fill the waterpots with water, some sugar & tomato paste'. And they filled them up to the brim and Jesus transformed them into low wines and this manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.