Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

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Koula
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Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Koula »

Hi all, I've been searching for days to find good info about fermenting fresh pineapples [not canned], especially without adding sugar. There are numerous journal articles on bio-ethanol production from pineapple waste, mainly peelings and not involving sugar additions, but very little about using whole fresh pineapples as most websites are focused on pineapple wine. There are a few recipes using whole pineapple, but with copious amounts of water and sugar. So here's what I've done:

I recently blended 10 whole pineapples with ~5L water in a Vita-mix to produce a 25L solution of juice, pulp, and water. I let it separate for half an hour, then removed juice only from the lower spout to take an SG reading. It was 1.024, suggesting a mere alcohol potential of ~3%. It has a heating belt, and will have a turbo yeast added after 24 hours(?).

How much of a difference would the use of extremely ripe pineapples make to the initial SG reading? Is there such a thing as too ripe?

Since I don't want to add sugar for reasons I'll leave untold, is it still going to be possible to achieve a high alcohol content (12-18%)?

More on the fresh pineapple mash subject and possible techniques: I'm also wondering how others would perform the ferment. What do you think of blending the heck out of the pineapple and dumping it into a fermenter? Would it be better to dice the pineapples, insert into muslin-cloth sack, pound or press, and ferment in the sack? If this is the case, at what point do you remove the solid material? Putting the pineapples through a juicer isn't really an option, as they tend to froth and overflow from the juicer (twin gear style).

Looking forward to a fresh conversation with some new insights.
Cheers!
biker geek
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by biker geek »

Turbo yeast is for making fuel. Use a wine yeast, beer yeast, or baker's yeast. If you ferment with the pulp for a few days you can salvage some more sugar. Ferment with the fruit for 3 days, then rack the must(wash) to another container to finish. In country wine making, pectic enzyme is frequently used to break down cellular structure to get more sugar(it's used for plain old fruit juice too), but it will increase the amount of foreshots.
Schmicter
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Schmicter »

I think if you want a higher SG without adding sugar you will have to dilute with less water. Maybe 2 ltr. instead of 5 ltr. Fermenting in a grain bag just makes it easier to strain and squeeze. I would remove and squeeze out when transferring to the secondary ferment after it slows down. Too ripe is good as long as there is no rot, all in all riper might add a point to the SG. Scrap the turbo and use a wine yeast or bakers.

I don't know what starches in pineapples might be convertible with enzymes. A grain mashing expert might
Dnderhead
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Dnderhead »

from what I can fiend pineapple at the most is 14% .
going by this the most you can expect is 8% must..
Koula
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Koula »

Thanks for the replies. I abandoned the attempt to brew high % without adding sugar. Who would have thought, that fresh pineapple juice was so close to water in sugar content! I read on a fruit sweetness chart somewhere that pineapple is 17g sugar per 100g, not exceptionally high compared to most other fruits as I had initially guessed. After pressing 24L of juice/pulp (100% pineapple with tops ad bottoms cut off), we yielded 18L juice, or 75% Juice from Fresh Pineapples. We had hoped that the pulp was inferring with the hydrometer reading, as you could literally stand a spoon up in the pulp liquid mixture. Sadly the SG was exactly the same after straining, 1.024 or ~3% alcohol potential.

Quick question, is there any chance that after sitting unused for 3-4 years, that a hydrometer might not be accurate any longer? And, are they calibrated or dependent to elevations? Just a guess, since it's a sealed atmosphere inside the hydrometer.

I abandoned the initial desire to brew without sugar and added raw sugar, 9kg in total for a total volume of 29L. SG was now 1.128 and temp was 30C when pitching turbo yeast classic. 9 hours later and the water seal is in a state of non-stop bubbling. Heat belt is wrapped around barrel 3" from bottom.
mealstrom
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by mealstrom »

After all that work it seems a waste to use Turbo Yeast. I used it in the beginning too after having read a lot of great reviews on it. Then, after running it, I couldn't figure out why I was getting such a horrible taste. Tried again, same thing. Finally I followed the same recipe but used bread yeast, and it was 100 times better. Turbo yeast is likely going to give you some off flavors and waste all the work you did to get the fruit to that point.

On the fruit side, don't be afraid to add a little sugar to get your SG up. I've done it with a few brandies, including pumpkin. The trick to getting good flavor is not to add a lot of sugar, and when you do your spirit run add some of your backset into the boiler. So:

1. Add a little sugar and pitch regular yeast or brewers yeast
2. Do your run, save some of the backset
3. After the run is complete, do a spirit run by putting all your liquor, so water, and some backset back into the boiler
4. Run it through nice and slow
Koula
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Koula »

Now I regret using turbo yeast, but after some reading it seems that everyone does it in the beginning. Why oh why are Brew shop owners doing this to beginners? Kind of starts a relationship of non-confidence...

Just to recap:
- 18L fresh pineapple juice (let sit for 24h) then
- 9 kg raw cane sugar
- some water
= 29L wash (SG 1.128)
pitched turbo yeast at 30C, heating belt, fermentation finished after 3.5 days with SG reading 1.000.

The main page says that high pectin fruit can produce more methanol. This is vague and doesn't suggest how much more methanol they can produce, or any further safety advice. I decided to try and find out the pectin content of pineapple juice, but could not find a drop of info.

I further read on the forums that citric acid can be a factor in ammonia production when sodium bicarbonate is added to a primary wash. Any concern about the high citric acid component of a pineapple wash, and ammonia production, especially after using [low quality] turbo yeast?

I intend on throwing out the first 200ml of heads (this is a large wash 29L), just to be safe. Is that enough considering the unknown pineapple factors (pectin, citric acid)? What would you do?

When fermenting random fruits such as pineapples, of which pharmaceutical products are derived, how careful does one need to be with the final hearts? Again, I will toss 200ml of heads, and tails.

Just some comments to prevent redundancy. I will not use full packs of turbo yeast again, my remaining turbo yeast will be fractioned into at least 1/4's, including the giant 23% yeast pack I sadly bought. I also will not try to achieve such high ABV the next time. Another beginners mistake.

I'd like to try sparkling wine yeasts, bought a pack today. Can I add cornmeal for nutrients? At what rate? Any other alternative nutrient sources, molasses perhaps?

Additionally, I wasn't going to rack, filter, carbon, or chitosan clear. Just siphon through muslin cloth into the boiler. Is this bad method?

On another note, I have another 18L of freshly juiced pineapple sitting in another 30L fermenter, just waiting for Plan #2. I'm welcoming all suggestions. ;)
Koula
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Koula »

Refluxed today in my new Kegomax FM still.

300mL head/foreshots disposed.
4L from 5 cuts, all 91-92% ABV (77C)
6th cut = 87% (100mL) (78C)
7th cut or tails = 85% (50mL) (80-85C)

Odor: Buttery, floral smell, consistent from cut 1-5.
Appearance: slight yellow tinge " " cut 1-5.

Considering baking soda treatment and re-distilling, but will wait to see what a straight sugar wash look/smells like.

Questions:
1. I've read to save the tails for re-distilling at a later point, but is this strictly for fuel purposes or could it be drinking?

2. Does 87% mean that 13% are impurities? The still never exceeded 85C.

3. Can I run the heads in my chainsaw?

4. Correct me if my use of terminology is wrong, for everyone's sake. ;)

Pineapple Batch #2 is fermenting, this time only 24 L. I bought Still Spirits "Turbo Yeast Power" before I found the wisdom of these forums. So I am only using 1/10 the pack (39g) of yeast mixture for this batch. 7kg raw sugar. And approx. 12-14L of fresh pineapple juice, again allowed to sit for 24 hours after juicing with pulp, strained after 24 hours. Brew was too hot to pitch yeast tonight (40C), so will pitch in another 6 hours.
Dnderhead
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Dnderhead »

1) Heads /tales can be rerun either in the next run or by themselves
2)yes if your product is 87% then there is 13% of something other in it,can be many things water? flavor? other alcohols? this is where you have some control with cuts.
3) I would not sagest that...
frozenthunderbolt
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Koula wrote:Pineapple Batch #2 is fermenting, this time only 24 L. I bought Still Spirits "Turbo Yeast Power" before I found the wisdom of these forums. So I am only using 1/10 the pack (39g) of yeast mixture for this batch. 7kg raw sugar. And approx. 12-14L of fresh pineapple juice, again allowed to sit for 24 hours after juicing with pulp, strained after 24 hours. Brew was too hot to pitch yeast tonight (40C), so will pitch in another 6 hours.
Sugar content is a bit high, i wouldnt go above 4kg in 20L. too high a SG creates stressed yeast and off flavours
Where has all the rum gone? . . .

Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
Koula
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Koula »

frozenthunderbolt wrote:
Sugar content is a bit high, i wouldnt go above 4kg in 20L. too high a SG creates stressed yeast and off flavours
And these off flavours, are they bad health wise, or just on the palate? The reason I ask is because I had it in mind to dilute and re-distill a 2nd time, possibly adding bi-carb first. The still designers claim it can obtain 95%ABV but the max I received was 92%. Distillate was a constant drip, it took 3h23min to distill ~4.1L at 92%. Heads 300mL and tails 150mL.

Is this magic sugar ratio (200g/L) dependent on the type of sugar used?

On another note, after 24 hours I decided to double the yeast to 78g for Pineapple Batch #2. This is now 1/5 of the StillSpirits 390g Power pack. Also added 2L water and 2kg more sugar. The fermentation finally took off and is now coming out the airlock. Previously there was only an air bubble every 5 seconds (too slow for the first 24 hours I guessed - ?)
Dnderhead wrote: 2)yes if your product is 87% then there is 13% of something other in it,can be many things water? flavor? other alcohols? this is where you have some control with cuts.
Safe for drinking however? I've been confused with reading that heads and tails are often discarded, whilst I'm aware of methanol in heads, is there likely to be more toxins in the tails as well? Is there a magic ABV % that as a rule of thumb, we should never go below?

Regarding the chainsaw or lawnmower, seems that it's fine with the extra step of extracting some water and mixing with 5% petrol (gasoline)
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=40922 - 3rd post
Dnderhead
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Dnderhead »

fermented fruit is wine,the more you remove the more pure your product but if you make it to pure it can lack in flavor, so its a balancing act.either way its no more "toxic" than it was to start.about 80% seems to be the high number.much above that and you loose flavor rather fast.

as for two cycle engines they do not care for alcohol..be prepared to replace carbs and other parts.alcohol tends to "eat" the dicast parts.
frozenthunderbolt
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Koula wrote:And these off flavours, are they bad health wise, or just on the palate? Headache material The reason I ask is because I had it in mind to dilute and re-distill a 2nd time, possibly adding bi-carb first If you are doing that, you are fine and should be able to make better cuts on your second distillation anyways, you will however also loose some of the flavour you want from your pineapple. The still designers claim it can obtain 95%ABV but the max I received was 92%. Distillate was a constant drip, it took 3h23min to distill ~4.1L at 92%. Heads 300mL and tails 150mL.

Is this magic sugar ratio (200g/L) dependent on the type of sugar used?
It will work ok with regular white sugar; some say a pound per gallon.

Safe for drinking however? Technically, yes, it wont kill you, BUT the headache/bodyload on a stressed turbo was with poor cuts may make you WISH you were dead though :mrgreen: I've been confused with reading that heads and tails are often discarded, whilst I'm aware of methanol in heads, is there likely to be more toxins in the tails as well?

There are a variety of undesirable compounds including methanol, acetyl-aldehyde, acetone and others in the heads, recent research shows there is also a concentration of methanol at some point in the tails.
This all said, unless you ferment wood you will never generate enough methanol to cause you significant (specifically methanol related) harm.
In saying this, it would be foolish and poor practice not to make cuts for foreshots, heads and tails


Is there a magic ABV % that as a rule of thumb, we should never go below?
No. It depends on your wash, your still and the way you run it. Collect in numbered 200-500 ml GLASS jars and smell and taste your way through diluted sample of each to ascertain where to make the best cut for the kind of drink you want to make
Where has all the rum gone? . . .

Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
Koula
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Koula »

Regarding cuts, I'm confused about foreshots and heads, as I thought they were the same thing. Seems that despite reading much of the forum and main page, incongruities still linger. Please don't mind my asking!

1. Foreshots = methonal. Remove 5% of estimated pure alcohol produced - ?
- 29L wash, estimated ~4.8L pure alcohol, x 0.05 = 0.24 or 240mL. I removed 300mL to be safe - Correct?

2. Heads - what volume can be expected? These are still low quality? What cut size or percentage should these be?

3. What are these, hearts?

4. Temperature rises by 1C therefore these are tails? Discard? I yielded about 100mL after temp increased by 1C (quite rapidly)

5. Combined four 1L cuts of what I thought were the hearts (everything after the foreshots) to make a final mix not including the tails.
- are these cuts too large to discern olfactory differences?

Now, a curve-ball question for you pros out there. If you're not interested/willing to sample the spirit, how else can you determine it's quality? That is, I can barely handle 40% ABV straight up, not to mention 95%. I understand that a professional brandy distiller would sample and spit, but is this the only way to sample? Do you dilute first? I find this really difficult, as the cuts all smell the same to me!
Dnderhead
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Dnderhead »

when you distill its not "clean cut" the bad fades out over time.then you have "clean harts" then it fades back to bad tasting again ,not the same as in the beginning but bad nun the less.
so it mite start with a "bite" or smell like pant thinner or with a few other descriptions then when this is gone or as much of it as you want gone you start collecting harts.how much? I dont know you tell me,your the one drinking it.similar with harts you collect as much as you want .when it starts tasting bad or starts giting watery stop saving it as harts..
frozenthunderbolt
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Koula wrote:Regarding cuts, I'm confused about foreshots and heads, as I thought they were the same thing. Seems that despite reading much of the forum and main page, incongruities still linger. Please don't mind my asking!
This is about the best explanation of it all on the site (imho) http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 40&start=0

Now, a curve-ball question for you pros out there. If you're not interested/willing to sample the spirit, how else can you determine it's quality? That is, I can barely handle 40% ABV straight up, not to mention 95%. I understand that a professional brandy distiller would sample and spit, but is this the only way to sample? Do you dilute first? I find this really difficult, as the cuts all smell the same to me!
You can make fair cuts by smell and taste at WEAKER stregths. Try diluting your samples to around 15-25% with hot water in a wine glass - swirl and sniff - the heat and extra dilution will realy open the alcohol up and make it easier to smell the impurities (desirable and undesirable)
Where has all the rum gone? . . .

Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
Dnderhead
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Dnderhead »

"willing to sample the spirit, how else can you determine it's quality? That is, I can barely handle 40% ABV straight up"
i make cuts "on the fly" or as it comes out of the still and you don't "sample" as taking a shot,,i just whet my finger.what "sticks " on is enough to tell.
Koula
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Koula »

Thanks, I'll definitely try the finger rub lick test. Sounds very sofasticatted, haha.

From the Welch's Grape thread (http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 5&start=12):
rad14701 wrote:
Koula wrote:Used a turbo yeast for my first batch and fermentation was rapid with an instant end after 3.5 days. (original ABV potential was 16%). My next batch was identical but with 78g (20%) from a pack of the giant "power" (390g) turbo yeast. It's going half as fast by comparison.
Maybe the yeast colony is dying from osmotic stress... :idea: Are you taking hydrometer and temperature readings or flying by the seat of your pants...???
Hey Rad, yes to hydrometer and temp readings. SG has now been sitting at 1.018 for more than 48 hours. Ferment has had a constant temp of 24C since the start. (heat belt, same as pineapple batch #1). The airlock does bubble once or twice a minute. I'm thinking of just running this through the still and not worrying about a couple ABV percentage points. What do you think? It's been exactly 10.5 days of fermenting.
rad14701
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by rad14701 »

Koula wrote:Hey Rad, yes to hydrometer and temp readings. SG has now been sitting at 1.018 for more than 48 hours. Ferment has had a constant temp of 24C since the start. (heat belt, same as pineapple batch #1). The airlock does bubble once or twice a minute. I'm thinking of just running this through the still and not worrying about a couple ABV percentage points. What do you think? It's been exactly 10.5 days of fermenting.
I consider my washes done when the airlocks slow to one bubble every 5 - 10 seconds but sometimes wait until they stop completely... Give it a go if you're antsy...
Cu29
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Re: Fresh Pineapple Mash - Low Sugar SG Reading

Post by Cu29 »

Well how does it taste after all that work?

FWIW tasting the solvent bits is much easier after airing for a day or two. I keep everything after the chemical smells. Call it what you want (heads/hearts). The tails should be easiest to identify. I like some of the deeper tails bits before it becomes pure cardboard. Just keep the tasty bits :-)
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