Notes - Cornbread and Buttermilk Whiskey

[S-Cackalacky]

These are my notes from an attempt to develop a new recipe. It kinda went to hell in a hand basket in the end. A bit discouraging, but I'll try it again. Please understand that these notes are just a thought process and documentation of my progress through an experiment and were never meant to be a finished recipe - THAT will come after some more experimentation. Just wanted to demonstrate the growth and development of an idea.

NOTES - CORNBREAD AND BUTTERMILK WHISKEY

July 5, 2015 -

At this point, just an idea.

Make cornbread cakes from coarse milled cracked corn – water and cornmeal mixed to a cornbread batter consistency and baked in the oven to a dark golden brown. I'll bake at around 315 dF for the Maillard reaction (284 to 329 dF).

The cakes will be equivalent to 2.5 – 3 lbs per gallon of water. That would be about 10 to 12 lbs of milled grain per 4 gallons of water. That's not to say that I will use 4 gallons of water for the batter mix, but what the grain to water ratio will be for the mashing process.

Crumble and mash the cornbread using the steep (no cook) method with the SEB enzymes for conversion. Use much the same protocol as used for the AG SF recipe.

For fermentation – add 1 pint of cultured buttermilk to the ferment. Question – add the buttermilk before or after fermentation is complete? A little research would seem to indicate that the buttermilk should go in with the yeast. I think I'll put it in just before aerating so it gets well mixed before pitching the yeast.

Distillation – For a test run (4 gallons), I think I'll run it with the thumper attached and do a slow single run. This is because there won't be enough low wines for a spirit run. Depending on the quality, I'll do a followup with a 16 gallon batch with stripping runs through the boiler and a spirit run with the thumper attached.

Aging – Same as for the AG SF recipe, but with one used stick.


July 15, 2015 -

This is for the cornbread batter - I'm using 12 lbs coarsely milled corn in a 5 gallon HDPE bucket. I brought 3 gallons of PH adjusted water to a boil. Calcium carbonate was used (approximately 2 Tbsp) to adjust the water to a PH of approximately 8.0 to 9.0. The purpose of the high PH is to give it a high alkaline environment for the Maillard reaction. I'll probably need to adjust it back down to 6.0, or so, for the enzyme conversion. I don't know what effect the corn will have on the PH.

I measured out the boiling water – adding 1 pint at a time into the grain. It took about 12 pints to get the consistency I was looking for – a heavy batter (porridge). So, that works out to 1 pint of water to 1 lb of grain. This may, or may not, be the desired amount. I'm sure the grain will absorb some of the water and may leave it a little too thick – we'll see.

I set the bucket on a milk crate with a folded towel under the bucket. I sealed it with a lid and wrapped the whole thing with a heavy towel. I plan to let it sit for about an hour before proceeding to the next step. I should have taken a temp before sealing it, but didn't. I imagine the water got cooled down considerably by the room temp grains.

After an hour+, I spooned it into 3 flat baking pans lightly sprayed with non-stick vegetable oil spray. I think the pans are something like 12” X 16”. I put it in a 315 dF preheated oven. I set the timer for 2 hours and will add more time if needed. The consistency of the batter was what I was looking for, so I'm happy with the mix of 1 pint water to 1 lb corn. I used the 315 dF temp because it seemed it would promote some cooking and it is a few degrees below the maximum for the Maillard reaction. An optimum temp might be something requiring further experimentation.

I checked it after 2 hours and it is browning up nicely, but not where I want it. I set the timer for another hour. I imagine the heat is cooking the corn to the point that I should get a good conversion with this. I still plan to use the same mashing protocol I used for uncooked grains.

I removed it from the oven after 3 hours. I had 2 pans on the top rack and 1 pan on the bottom rack. The two on the top rack had a nice dark golden brown on the top surface. The 1 on the bottom rack was less brown on top, but appears that the bottom may be a bit browner. This is the first time trying this, so I'm sure there will be some need to tweak the process. Its all in the basement cooling at the moment. I should get a better assessment when I break it into pieces. Smells damned good.

It may be a few days before I get the time to mash this. I think I might use a 6 gallon fermenter with 5 gallons of water for the steeping and conversion. I may even go with 2 five gallon buckets and 6 gallons of water – haven't decided yet.

I had the 3 pans in the basement cooling. I went down and crumbled them into containers. The stuff is a little moist (not wet) and sticky. Seems that the oven cooking may have completely jelatinized the grain. I'm now a little concerned that it may not keep for very long. I think I need to try to mash it
sooner than I first thought.

July 16, 2015 -

I decided to go ahead and do the mashing today because I was concerned that the grains may spoil if left for more than a day or two. Decided to split it between two 5 gallon buckets. The grains have swollen considerably – about 2 times their original volume. What was originally 6 lbs of grain fills a bucket near half full. I've done the first stage on one bucket. I put 3 gallons of water in my 5 gallon still boiler and adjusted the PH to around 5.0 to 6.0. After coming to a boil, I put the water in with the grains and further adjusted the PH. The temp was around 170 dF. I put in 4 mL of SEBstar HTL and stirred well. I placed a folded towel under the bucket, sealed with a lid, and wrapped the bucket with another towel. The bucket is also sitting on a milk crate to keep it off the concrete floor. The second 3 gallons of water is heating up.

The lbs of grain to gallon of water ratio is about 2/1. After fermenting and squeezing the grains, I should have about 5+ gallons of wash to distill. This should work well for a single run charge in the boiler and thumper.

I hope to get both buckets to the point of adding the SEBamyl GL before having to leave for a doctor appointment in the early afternoon. I feel a little pushed for time. Well, that didn't happen. The temp was still too high, so I wrapped both buckets with extra towels and went on to the doctor appointment.

Well, back home and after sitting for about 3 hours, the temp of the first bucket was around 148 dF and the other about 152. I checked the PH and no adjustment needed. I added 4 mL of SEBamyl GL stirred well and wrapped with a towel. They will sit overnight and I will check for conversion and get it ready for the ferment first thing in the morning.

July 17, 2015 -

OK, that was pretty much a bust. Went down to the basement to check on the mash. The OG's were – bucket 1, 1.028 and bucket 2, 1.029. I did an iodine test and both buckets were dark purple. I'm a little stumped as to the lack of conversion. I think the grain was altready mostly cooked from the 3 hours in the oven. It was also steeped using the same protocol I've used with raw grains. Other than raising the PH to a highly alkaline state for the Maillard reaction, the PH adjustments I did seemed to bring it to the correct levels for the 2 enzymes. The only conclusion I can come to at this point is that maybe my enzymes have lost their potency. I'll do a test with maybe a gallon or so of mash to confirm this.

As far as this wash goes, I think my only alternative at this point is to turn it into a sugarhead. I don't really have a viable way to heat it up to try it again. I'll need to do a little research to figure out how much sugar I need to add to get it up to 1.060, or so. As far as I can tell from the sugar wash sg calc on the Parent site, it looks like it will take about 3 lbs, or so, of sugar per bucket to get me to where I need to be. Forgive me Jimbo for I know not what else to do.

I heated up two gallons of water – should have used less. I forgot to account for the water I was using to dissolve the sugar, so I dissolved about 7 lbs of sugar and started adding it to my two buckets and realized it was too much added volume – had to use a 3rd bucket and divided the mash pretty much evenly between the 3. The OG is now about 1.055 – that's good enough. I added about a pint of buttermilk to each bucket, aerated with my air compressor, and pitched about 3 Tbls of baker's yeast to the surface of each bucket. I placed each one in separate cardboard boxes, placed lids loosely on each one, closed the box lids, and draped a towel over each one. They're also sitting on milk crates to raise them off the concrete floor. Hopefully the heat will be contained in the boxes. The ambient air temp in the basement is 70 dF.

Oh crap!! Forgot to add the prenatal vitamins. Oh well, maybe they won't be needed with all the added sugar.

[likker liker]

Keep posting updates.

[S-Cackalacky]

Not much to report. I just went down to make sure the ferment is going. I could see some bubbles breaking on the surface, but I wouldn't say that it is vigorous. We'll see. I'll check the PH tomorrow. I was relying on what I saw when I adjusted for the SEBamyl enzyme. Just want to make sure it's not out of kilter. I'm also a little concerned about all the starch that must be in there. Don't know how that might effect the distillation.

[ranger_ric]

Just for discussion SCack...
I thought the Maillard reaction took place below the boiling point??
IN all of the discussions I have seen on the Maillard reaction they were running several hours @ 194° F

In Odins Thread he does a sugarhead.
I think between the corn and the buttermilk you will have plenty of nutrients for your yeast..
I am watching this one. Thanks for sharing..

[S-Cackalacky]

I think I got the temps from Wikipedia. I'll go back and double check - maybe check some other sources. I remember reading Odin's thread, but it's been awhile.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I thought the Maillard reaction took place below the boiling point?.

Yes, below boiling. I just "kiln" dried some wheat malt in my oven and the process that takes place at below 200F is significant.
I put some of the damp wheat malt in and left it in the oven at 200F for hours hoping to both get some starch conversion and some mallaird reaction. I think I got both.
I haven't run the grains yet, but the taste just from eating them compared to the plain dried malt is no comparison. The oven dried grains are much more nutty, chocolate flavors, and toasted like wheat toast. Very intense flavor change.
In this photo the oven kilned wheat is on the top and the dry wheat malt is on the bottom, big change in color as well.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I like this whole idea, SCack, I think you are on to something.
I have had trouble trying to get any Malliard action to happen with corn. I tried last summer with some sweet corn, and I tried again a few weeks ago with no success. Not sure corn even is even able to benefit from Mallaird.
Either way, we all know that cornbread tastes great, and I believe that taste difference would carry over to the whiskey.
No idea why you didn't see complete conversion, but keep at it, I will keep watching.

[S-Cackalacky]

I was going by Wikipedia and found other sources - one of which is excerpted below.

From Wikipedia -

The reaction is a form of nonenzymatic browning which typically proceeds rapidly from around 140 to 165 °C (284 to 329 °F). At higher temperatures, caramelization and subsequently pyrolysis become more pronounced.

From "Science of Cooking", MSU Moorhead, Department of Chemistry -

Browning, or the Maillard reaction, creates flavor and changes the color of food, the taste and color to baked bread and even the turning of beer brown. Maillard reactions generally only begin to occur above 285°F (140°C).

So, which is it? Can anyone cite any sources for the "below 200 dF" reference?

[MichiganCornhusker]

I was working from this thread, not wikipedia, but Odin-pedia:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... t=malliard

[ranger_ric]

S-Cack,
Not sure how to say this but Wikipedia is like an encyclopedia that can say one thing yesterday and a user changes it to say another thing today,,,(youtube??)
HD, is a peer reviewed site (I know you know this).
Dont give up on this recipe (please).. Try it the Odin way.
I appreciate your courage to put your experiment out there for us all... (Perhaps you should get an ESPY award) sorry couldnt resist that one.....
You rock S-Cack!!!

[S-Cackalacky]

Could it have maybe been a typo on his part - typed 194 instead of 294. 294 makes more sense in the context of the before mentioned references. I can see doing what I did with the cornbread batter at 294 dF for 6 hours - makes sense.

Posted while Ranger_ric posted.

R_R, take another look - I supported the Wikipedia reference with another reference from a university chemistry dept. I found other references to the same temp range, but I'm not going back to dig them out again. Sorry, but I don't take what's written here on the forums at face value - even if it's written by Odin. Information is often perpetuated as fact even if it might not be so - simply because someone says it and no one else questions it. If I'm wrong about this, cite some authoritative references proving it.

[ranger_ric]

+1 S-Cack....
I am not being argumentative... I understood that the Maillard reaction was to happen before gelatinazation of the grain in an Alkaline solution. (Odin posts his temperatures MANY times in his thread and they are ALL consistent at 194°F) Most grain gelatinazes(sic) around the boiling point of water..
Perhaps if you have the patience you can try it at a lower temp. (I would do this BUT my SOH wont let me have access to the oven to make likker) maybe I can schedule her out of town for a few days....
I am sorry I dont have any other "scientific" references.... Many people tried his recipe and most had favorable results...
Peace..

[MichiganCornhusker]

Could it have maybe been a typo on his part - typed 194 instead of 294. 294 makes more sense in the context of the before mentioned references. I can see doing what I did with the cornbread batter at 294 dF for 6 hours - makes sense.

Not trying to defend one or the other, but Odin made no typo, he is emphatic about temps to differentiate between Mallaird and caramelizations temps.
That said, I know very little else about this. Except that I did bake my wheat malt at 200F and it did make a substantial impact.
I also baked some at 350F and it is a roasted, crunchy bunch of grain that I would use very sparingly in a recipe. I wouldn't hesitate to do an entire batch from the 200F stuff.

But as I mentioned earlier, I have not seen that type of effect with corn. The sweet corn that I tried was fresh from the field and I did keep it moist and alkaline but got nothing for my efforts at 200F.
I say Malliard Schmalliard, what you're doing with cornbread will have an impact on the whiskey and that's what I want to hear about.

[S-Cackalacky]

R_R, I don't doubt yours or MCH's or Odin's results and don't intend to be argumentative. I'm just looking at the facts as scientifically stated. Maybe something other than the Maillard reaction is going on at those low temps - I don't know. But, according to the science, I'm not sure I would call it a Maillard reaction. I'll continue to investigate it, but from all I've found so far, there's no Maillard reaction at below 200 dF temps documented anywhere but here on these forums.

Posted while MCH was posting.

[ranger_ric]

an observation that I want to throw into the ring here....
Odin was doing his with Rye....
Corn may be an entirely different animal as MCH has stated....
just my $0.02....
Much respect for your experiment S-Cack !! Wish my wife would take a road trip ...........

[One Sock]

Do you refrigerate the enzymes? I made the mistake of buying large bottles, but I keep em in the back of the fridge and they're still going strong after a year!

[S-Cackalacky]

OS, yes, I keep them in the vegie drawer of the fridge. I'm terrible with remembering dates, but I think they're about 6 months old. I also wonder if maybe the Maillard reaction had something to do with the low conversion. I plan to do a test with the enzymes to make sure they're still good. I'm new to mashing and may have somehow screwed up the protocol. There are any number of possibilities.

[Halfbaked]

never giv eup.jpg (15.38 KiB) Viewed 4303 times

Good experiment SC.. WHen I started reading this I thought OHHHHHHH because I thought you were going to add it to cornbread and milk afterward. I read on and thought sounds like a lot of work and if it works prob be tastey if it works and that is a lot of work. If you didn't get the sugar content from what you did I would not waste it I would add sugar to get SG you wanted. The 3 thought was Odins rye bread.

[S-Cackalacky]

I did some more research on the Maillard reaction and also caramelization. It's noteworthy that the two different processes have overlapping reaction temps. However, caramelization can happen at lower temps depending on the sugar - fructose requiring the lowest temp (230 dF). Some other sugars carmelize at much higher temps - 350 dF, or above. There is also some indication that both reactions, especially caramelization, can happen at a slower rate at lower than the designated temps. I also found that the Maillard reaction can't happen in the presence of water, which means that whatever reaction I was getting with my experiment was only happening at the surface as the moisture was removed by the heat. It would, therefore, make sense to use shallow pans to provide as much surface area as possible for the most browning - did something right.

The difference in the two reactions is that the Maillard reaction is a heat reaction with amino acids and caramelization is a heat reaction with sugars and both may be occurring in conjunction with each other. I was looking for grain charts that gave information about naturally occurring sugars in grains, but didn't really find anything. It kinda makes sense to me that malted grains might have more sugar content from what little starch/sugar conversion takes place before the grains are dried. When malted grain is being dried at elevated temps below 200 dF, it might be possible that some caramelization might be taking place with long exposure to the elevated heat - evidenced by the change in color. I don't know if the same thing is at all possible with unmalted grains.

Anyway, that said, I don't really give a crap. It's not necessary for me to fully understand all the science behind the production of a cornbread cake. I set out to make a simple cornbread based on a simple water/corn batter and I think I succeeded in doing THAT. The "Maillard reaction" will no longer be a part of my vocabulary. It's enough to know that it does what it does - basically something that happens when you cook things - makes it brown.

I'm kinda intrigued now about the whole sugar thing. If caramelization adds a "different" flavor note, why not add a few tablespoons of sugar to the cornbread batter. Just a thought.

[S-Cackalacky]

Baked, yes the process is difficult. The making of the cornbread adds another layer of difficulty. Just doing the mashing protocol is difficult in my case. One thing to keep in mind though is that the cornbread can be made over time and frozen if necessary. So, no need to do it all at once.

[S-Cackalacky]

Just a follow up on the ferment. I checked the PH and it looks ok - around 5.5, or so. It's also bubbling a little more vigorously today. It's looking like I won't need to add any oyster shells as long as it finishes without a drastic PH drop - which I think it probably will.

[S-Cackalacky]

Well, it's been just over two weeks since I put this down to ferment and I'm still seeing bubbles breaking the surface. Slowest baker's yeast ferment I've ever had. If it's still going on Monday, I'll take a gravity reading to see where it is. I'm wondering if it's because it was such a poor conversion. I'm sure there's a lot of starch in there and I'm wondering if maybe the enzymes are still working on it.

[S-Cackalacky]

I checked yesterday and the FG is below 1.000 on all three buckets. I went down this morning and ass-pressed the three buckets and got right at 8 gallons. It's sitting in one 5 gallon plastic water jug and three 1 gallon milk jugs to clear. I'll probably do strips on it early next week. Should be about 2 strips. I had originally planned to do one single run, but because I have too much wash to do that in one go, I decided to do strips and then a very diluted spirit run.

Just a note about the ass-press - if you even slightly overfill it, wash will cascade down the sides of the bottom bucket onto the floor. It's easy to forget that the overflow level in the straining bucket isn't the same as the overflow level in the bucket beneath it. The learning curve is directly related to the resulting mess.

[ranger_ric]

S-Cack
Thank you for the physics lesson on the bucket level and the mess they produce... LOL

BTDT

[S-Cackalacky]

S-Cack
Thank you for the physics lesson on the bucket level and the mess they produce... LOL

BTDT

"Oh shit!!!" seems to be my primary learning tool.

[ranger_ric]

The new line over at Homedistillers Anonymous....

Oh Shit !!!

[One Sock]

I've tried something similar, trying to avoid the fuss with boiling grain and holding temps for hours to convert the starches but ya just can't! It'll bubble for weeks instead of days as the enzymes work, better that happens in one day!

[S-Cackalacky]

I've had some thoughts about changes to the protocol for this whiskey - mainly for the cornbread recipe. I plan to use room temp water for the batter. The boiling step seems unnecessary since it's going in the oven for a long cook anyway. I also won't intentionally raise the alkalinity. According to my reading, the higher PH speeds up the browning (Maillard reaction), but it will also happen with a longer cook. I will also add some honey to the batter. It's my understanding that honey is high in fructose and fructose has the lowest caramelization temp of all the sugars.

I'll still put it through the same mashing protocol as before - steep (no-boil) cooking with the SEB enzymes added at appropriate temps. I also want to get a finer grind on the cornmeal to try for a better conversion. I think my biggest disappointment With this current run was having such a low conversion rate and then having to turn it into a sugarhead. I'll be keeping closer tabs on PH and temp for the next run.

[S-Cackalacky]

I finally got around to doing the stripping runs for this today. From 2 strips I got 1-1/4 gallons. The spirit run will need to be a fairly low ABV %. I had about a gallon of wash dregs leftover. Hopefully I'll get enough cleared wash from the dregs to charge my thumper for the spirit run.

This was one of the best tasting spirits coming from a strip run that I think I've ever had. The spirit run holds great promise. Anyway, I'll post back up after the spirit run and cuts.

[S-Cackalacky]

I did the spirit run yesterday. I decided to NOT use the thumper. The dregs I was trying to clear didn't clear so well - was some kind of coagulated mess. May have been the buttermilk at work - idk. Anyway, I didn't have the extra wash to charge the thumper, so I didn't use it. I ran it fairly slow - fast drip. Not much heads, but a lot of tails. After cuts, I have about 1.5 quarts at 62% ABV hearts. I nuked about 3/4 quart in each of 2 quart jars to 150 dF using 1 once used 3/4" X 5" toasted and lightly charred white oak stick in each jar. I sealed and wrapped the jars with bath towels and placed them in a Styrofoam cooler to gradually cool to room temp. After about 24 hours, I'll put them in the freezer for several hours, bring back to room temp, and strain them into a 1/2 gallon pickle jar to age for a few months.

That's about it. I'll post up again in a few months after doing some tasting.