The art of making a Geist (Lemon and Orange)

[pyrate]

Hi there,

after a long period of gin-development I am going to try an other but similar type of spirit: a so called Geist (German).

A Geist is a macerated and/or vapor infused spirit made out of one single botanical based on a neutral spirit.Lemon- and Orange-Geist are very popular and I want to start with these two. (Info: A limoncello is a sweetened Lemon-Geist with lower ABV)

In this thread I want to discuss the most flavorful ways of making a Geist:
1. Lemon-Geist
2. Orange-Geist
3. Any other type of Geist.

Befor I start with the first trials I want to ask, if anybody has any experience with Geist-making especially with lemon and orange:
- Which parts of the fruits should be user (outermost peel, juice, pulp)?
- Which process gets the best results (maceration, vapor infusion, ABV)?
- Recipe (gramms of fruit part per liter alcohol)?
- When (temperature) to make cuts (heads, tails)?
- Use of column (1-3 plates, reflux condenser) or not?

That's enough right now... Thank you!

[der wo]

If you have a column, use it. So you can vapor infuse with low abv in the boiler, what results for the most fruits in a finer taste (but you will need more fruit).

Only use the zests, not the white inner part of the peels. You can good scratch the zest off with a potato peeler.
Per liter 12% abv neutral take zests from 2 oranges or 4 lemons. The zests over the neutral into the boiler or in the downer part of the column.
You also could use a spirit from the fermented juice instead of a neutral.

Cuts as always by taste.

I have done apple, quince, orange zests (with orange juice spirit in the boiler), sloes, green walnuts, medlar, rosehips, elderberries, hawthorn, banana (with banana juice spirit in the boiler), needles from larch and spruce and of course raspberries.


Some unnecessary info:
If you want to name it "Geist", in Germany you must mazerate the fruit in neutral alcohol and you are not allowed to place it in the vapor, it has to be in the boiler. So what I do is not "Geist". But believe me, in the vapor it tastes better.

[pyrate]

Thanks for your advices. I have some questions regarding the vapor infusion method.

I have the opportunity to use a 150l still with helmet and column. This still has two baskets in the vapor path. The first one is placed at the top of the boiler pot (before the column) and the second one is placed after the column and before the condenser. Every one of the 3 plates in the column can be switched off or on. Same holds for the reflux condenser at the top of the column. Usually the still is filled with 25% ABV neutral spirit to produce gin (some macerated, some with vapor infusion).

Your first advice is to put the stuff in the vapor path instead of maceration. Seems to be some kind of phylosophy (Odins standard advice is to put everything in the boiler to get more aroma).
Ok, lets stay at the vapor infusion thing. Why should I place the stuff before the column? When I put the stuff after the column the ABV of the vapor is higher and the temperature is lower. Isnt this the more gentle method? Or does the right way depent on the kind of fruit/herb etc. (e.g. lemon peel before column, rose petals after the column)?

[cuginosgrizzo]

I have the opportunity to use a 150l still with helmet and column.

there is an error in your post. you surely meant 94 liters?

[der wo]

Perhaps with Gin it is another story. I distilled no Gin so far. But there are many Gin brands, which place the spices in the vapor.
I only can speak for my experiences. For example apples are tasting much better in the vapor than in the boiler. And they taste better with low abv: High abv -> musty too long baked apple heavy aroma and astringent bitter, low abv -> nice light apple parfume. I did not try everything, but I am sure, that is also true for similar fruits like quinces or medlar and perhaps for almost all fruits. But for example I found out, for green walnuts the % of the neutral is not critical for the quality. But green nuts are more spicy than fruity, so perhaps for Gin you get happy with higher abv.

No, low abv vapor is definetely the more gentle method. Yes of course it is a few degrees hotter, if you have 10% in the boiler, the vapor has 93.4°C, at 30% it has 85°C. But here I am 100% sure: Less abv -> lighter, finer, less flavor and less bitterness. But if you take too low abv, the flavor gets a bit synthetical (and you need much more fruits).
12% is a good starting point for fruits, when you try this type of fruit for the first time. It's a balance between light parfume and heavy body.
For some fruits you need a lot of space, for example for apples I would place per liter of 12% neutral 250g chopped apples in the vapor. In your dimensions 100l 12% and 25kg apples.

[pyrate]

Ok lets put the stuff before the column. Next question is: use column? How many plates? Reflux condenser?

[der wo]

I wrote it in the first post. If you have a column, use it. Only this way it is possible to distill low abv in a single run. I use 1m 2" with 3/4 SPP and 1/4 copper scrubbers and liquid management. I control the taste with the valve and of course make cuts. I normally try to hold the temperature at 87°C, when I distill fruits. But sometimes I decide higher or lower during the run: A few drops on a spoon and a few drops water and I taste, if I want the aroma more heavy (higher temp) or more light (lower temp).
I don't have experience with plates, but I would say, use them all. Use more with fruits, than you would use with grain.

[Odin]

Nice thread!

Odin.

[pyrate]

Deeper thoughts on this:

If you have a column, use it. Only this way it is possible to distill low abv in a single run.

1. With 12% ABV neutral in your pot your starting ABV in the vapor will be at 60% and this will be the ABV out of your condenser at the distillation start without a column. Making your tails cut before the ABV drops below 40% your final product will have an ABV somewhere between 55 and 60% I guess. So I think the use of the column just depends on your cutting behaviour and your ABV yield for the final product (before you dilute it to drinking ABV), right? But any yield above drinking ABV is random?

if I want the aroma more heavy (higher temp) or more light (lower temp).

2. Higher temp equals less rectification (less use of the column) and lower temp equals more rectification in your column. When your fruits are placed before the column, the effect of more rectification is a stronger "cleaning" of the alcohol which results in a higher product ABV and lower temp of vapor before it is condensed in your product condenser. So you control the flavor strenght of the final product with your column?

Conclusion: 1. should not be a reason to use the column but 2. gives you more flavor control.

[der wo]

1. With 12% and without column a spirit run will always be bad in my opinion. Either you only collect a ridicolous amount of hearts or you have tails in the hearts (perhaps good for whiskey but not for fruit). Making the cut at 40% in the parrot is way too late.

2. With more rectification you get rid of tails. But it depends also from the cuts of course (you should read Mash Rookies "fractions don't disappear" -thread, if you don't have already). Better for fruits than for whiskey, because the best aroma of fruits is at the beginning of hearts. I not only control the abv or flavor strength with reflux, I also control the flavor character. That's important, because flavor strength is also controlled by the 'amount of fruits you take.

Edit: Mash Rookie's thread:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=39751

And thank you, Odin.

[pyrate]

I guess here is a missunderstanding. My assumption is that you use cleanest neutral spirit in your pot. In my case it is grain neutral spirit which comes at 96% ABV and above and gets diluted when used for maceration or in the pot. So there are no "normal" heads or "tails". The heads and tails we are talking about are depending on the flavor solvention during the distillation. Making cuts in this case are more a question of flavor than of fusel oils. Or am I totally wrong?

[pyrate]

Nice thread!

Odin.

By the way Odin:

At the iStill.eu Forum you are presenting two gin recipes.

- The first one calls for 6000 gramms botanicals (3000g juniper) for 60l alcohol (finally at 30% ABV in your still, =200l total).

- Your easy gin recipe calls only for 1800 gramms botanicals (1200g juniper) for 60l alcohol (finally at 30% ABV in your still, =200l total). The processes are very similar (overnight macerating of juniper etc.).

The difference in the amount of botanicals is extreme. Do you miss something here or what is the matter?

[der wo]

Of course a neutral has no foreshots and heads. So my sentence "because the best aroma of fruits is at the beginning of hearts" is more about fruit brandy. When I make a Geist, I don't cut any foreshots or heads (or only 10ml to clean my little product liebig).
But for sure there are tails. Of course not the same tails as in a mash and normally less tails. They are not from the neutral but from the fruit. I don't know, if the reason for that is, that the fruits are overcooked or because the good flavors are already in your hearts container and only the bad are left.
It does not function, to control with the valve the temp at say 87°C and collect all the ethanol into your hearts container. Even making a Geist not brandy, the last jars will taste bad no matter which temp/abv you have.

[der wo]

In the vapor vs in the boiler from my experience:

Vapor:
-more original fresh fruit aroma. The fruit is easy to identify. Possible, that you don't like it, because it tastes too original than you can belive it's natural, not synthetic. Every fruit tastes extreme different.
-it seems the vapor likes to transport light flavors at first and more. But you have also more entrainment (extreme, if you use a potstill without a riser: For example a spirit vapor infused with green walnuts will have a light yellow color probably).

Boiler:
-more abstract aroma. If you like it, you say "complex". If you don't, you say "cooked". Good and clean quality, but all the fruits taste a bit similar.
-the flavors are solved in the neutral and then they were distilled. You get a distilled product from a cooked fruit.

[pyrate]

This makes distilling so interesting and we are still not talking about fermenting etc.

The Vapor vs. Boiler thing is one of the most mysteric things for me. Odin often argues pro-boiler for most kinds of botanicals (herbs, spices). His explanation is that this brings more flavor at all. His advice is to place only fruit skins in the vapor path (Odin can you please give a quick thought about this). This holds for his gin recipes.

If we are now talking about single-botanical spirits like a "Geist" either vapor infused or macerated (only "legal" method? why?) we should use the best method for the single ingredient.

Following your experience and Odins gin recommendations fruit skins of lemon or orange should be placed in the vapor path. (Does anyone have an exact recipe of gramms per liter pure alcohol or per liter alcohol at an ABV level?)

What is the best method for herbs like rosemary (fresh and/or dried), spices like cassia and delicate stuff like rose petals? Any experiences here?

[der wo]

Yes, why is something legal or why not? The making of spirits is something the governments want to control (please no discussion about that here...) and so they write papers with rules, methods and so on. At this time Geist was always produced "in the boiler", so the German government wrote it like this in the paper. That's all. If you don't follow the rules, you cheat in their opinion and your spirit deserves not the name "Geist" but only the name "Spirituose". But "Spirituose" means also the cheapest spirits with synthetical flavors, so the german distillers distill in the boiler regardless of taste, because he can sell a Geist better than a Spirituose.
There is also the rule in Germany, that you are allowed only to make a "Geist" from a fruit, which is expensive and has a low sugar content, so mashing is extreme uneconomical. Because of that a few years ago they forbid to make a Geist from quinces. There is a list of fruits, which are allowed for Geist in Germany. Any other fruit is forbidden.
I think, those are rules from the European union, not from Germany.

I don't know, how much experience Odin has with the classical fruits for Geist like sloes or raspberries. I don't have any with herbs and Gin.

Edit: For example the german mid-price quince Geist ("Quittengeist") from Scheibel has now the name "Garten-Quitte" ("garden-quince") and at the back of the bottle I think is the word "Spirituose". But on their website they write, that they produce it like a Geist, so I think it is exactly the same product formerly named Geist. But the downside for the consumer is, now they could add sugar or synthetic flavors, because they don't have to follow the rules for Geist anymore.

[pyrate]

I took a look at the EU regulations. The claim "vapor infusion" or something similar (even for gin) does not exist, crazy laws...

Another question: How do you treat the essential oil sharpeness from the lemon peels? Does your distilling method or the ABV (vapor or pot) have any effect here?

[der wo]

I never did vapor infused lemons, but oranges. I think it is similar. I did not detect any sharpness. Are essential oils sharp? I don't know. I think, there is more the danger, that it turns out dark musty, if you want a strong flavor with zests.
Even distilled with high reflux the distillate will be cloudy diluted to drinking strength. If filtered or unfiltered is better, you will have to try out. My humble experience with filtering is, that you cannot calculate the result before. Filtering means not always less taste. Actually I like filtering normally, but mostly I am too lazy...

[pyrate]

I think, there is more the danger, that it turns out dark musty, if you want a strong flavor with zests.

Can you explain that?

[der wo]

I recognized while distilling, that it turns out too dark musty. So I closed the valve a bit for a lower temperature. It helped.
Many sour and bitter aromas (like lemon zests) would taste very dark, if they were not so sour and bitter. And that's what you do with distilling, the most sour and bitter aromas remain in the boiler.
Perhaps like why a coke or beer without CO² tastes boring.

[Kareltje]

I want to know more of this!

[der wo]

I want to know more of this!

Ok. Here a few recipes. I have done them at least once. I don't write, how I did it, but how I would do it next time. The fruits unmazerated directly over the nautral, I distill with 1m 2" SPP and copper scrubbies and LM:

-raspberry: cheap supermarket frozen ones are really good. If you want to try a Geist for the first time, this is the easiest success. 250g per liter 12%.

-elderberry: Only the berries, not the petioles. 100g per liter 10%.

-orange zest: zests of 2 oranges (unwaxed! Peeled with a potato peeler) per liter 12% .

-apple: chopped or sliced, without the core. 250g per liter 12%.

-quince: chopped or sliced, without the core. 180g per liter 12%.

-medlar: as soft, that you can mash them with your hands. Pull the stones out. 250g per liter 12%. But I am not sure. My medlars were not so good quality. But it turned out great. Perhaps, if you have good quality ripe medlars 150-200g is enough.

-banana: overripe bananas without the peel (the peel should be dark). 250g per liter 12%.

-sloe: ripe, they should be soft. Here best picked in november. You have to open the sloes a bit with a knife or put them in a bag and mashe them a bit. Don't remove the stones. 150g per liter 13%

-green walnut: here traditionally picked at the day of John the baptist, the 24th of june. Cut them in pieces (if they are wooden inside, you picked too late). Better wear gloves while you do that. Picked they have a very strong nice perfume. When you cut them, they smell a bit unpleasant, that is normal. Perhaps it's also a good idea, to distill a vodka from it. Or add a bit to a Gin recipe. 270g per liter 15%. But also a higher abv is good, what's good for potstillers.

-rosehip: they have to be ripe. Really soft. They have a really surpricing nice fresh taste, when they look ugly old. They ripen not all at the same time, so picking is very time consuming. In my area it's from early november until end of Dezember. 180g per liter 12%.

-needles from spruce or larch: They have to be really fresh lime green, I would pick the shoots here early May. Beware! Not from all trees the needles are good, some are very poisonous, yew for example. 70g per liter 10%.

-hawthorn: I failed. They were not ripe enough, it had only little and bad flavor. We have many hawthorn trees here, I will pick next year first half of November and try again. I think it will need much of them. I will try 250g per liter 12%.


My ideas for future are:
-Roasted hazelnuts (without the bitter skins)
-Coffee
-Dried fruits like currants or dates.
-Frozen berries from a russian supermarket here. They have sea buckthorn and cranberries and a few more.
-In case I am next summer in the mountains, perhaps I will find some good smelling hay.
-Elderflower
-I have heard, some leaves from fruit trees have a good flavor. But I have to do more research for that first.

[Kareltje]

Danke sehr, Herr Der Wo!

Thank you for the recipes and information.

But they puzzle me.
Your advise is to start with low %ABV, like 10 or 12 %.
But you also say:

1. With 12% and without column a spirit run will always be bad in my opinion. Either you only collect a ridicolous amount of hearts or you have tails in the hearts (perhaps good for whiskey but not for fruit). Making the cut at 40% in the parrot is way too late.

So this means using a pot still without a column or riser one cannot make a nice Geist or Spirituöse starting from your own recipes with 10 or 12 %ABV.

But on the other hand: according to information about moonshining in the USA or village distillers of fruit brandies in Eastern-Europe it is possible to make a good drinkable spirit of about 40 %ABV from a simple mash of both grain or fruit in one run. And these are (without added sugar) less than 12 %ABV.

Why is this not possible with 12 % and a helmet filled with fruit?

[pyrate]

As my posts suggest, I am also sceptical about the low ABV for the vapor infusion. der wo mentioned that he got the best flavor results with the low ABV (10-12%) and the use of his column (placed behind/after the fruit basket) to controll the final products ABV and flavor composition.

Kareltje, remember: we are not talking about fermented fruits! We are talking about fresh/frozen fruits and neutral spirit.

But I am still sceptical about the right ABV. Recipes for (legal definition of "Geist") macerated fruits results in higher ABV in the boiler pot. For most berries it i recommended to use 2-3 parts berries (measured in kg) to 1 part grain neutral spirit at 96% ABV. The final ABV in the boiler can be up to 30% ABV. For raspberries 1 part berries to 1 part neutral seems to be the right ratio (even when diluted with water the ABV in the pot up to 40-50%).

But there seems to be a big difference between maceration and vapor infusion technique. And it is a totally different story if you think about herbs and spices (or gin recipes). Bombay sapphire for example placed its botanical container behind the column to get a very high ABV vapor infusion...

[der wo]

Your advise is to start with low %ABV, like 10 or 12 %.
But you also say:

1. With 12% and without column a spirit run will always be bad in my opinion. Either you only collect a ridicolous amount of hearts or you have tails in the hearts (perhaps good for whiskey but not for fruit). Making the cut at 40% in the parrot is way too late.

So this means using a pot still without a column or riser one cannot make a nice Geist or Spirituöse starting from your own recipes with 10 or 12 %ABV.

But on the other hand: according to information about moonshining in the USA or village distillers of fruit brandies in Eastern-Europe it is possible to make a good drinkable spirit of about 40 %ABV from a simple mash of both grain or fruit in one run. And these are (without added sugar) less than 12 %ABV.

Why is this not possible with 12 % and a helmet filled with fruit?

Like the most distillers I started with a potstill too. I often tried Geist recipes, because it's simple. But I recognized, the hearts I get this way are small. So I tried mazerating an distilling in higher abv. But the taste had not the same quality. That was the reason Nr.1 for me to build a reflux still, distilling low abv Geist in a single run.

If you have a potstill and want to try one of my recipes, you could distill twice. But I never did it, because I was sure, I get less aroma this way. Now after more experience with grain and double runs, I would try it, if I didn't have a reflux still.

My opinion is, a mash with 12% in the boiler has always a better result distilled twice. The cuts are better. Perhaps it is less taste, but you throw out more of the bad tastes than of the good.

Is it in East-Europe under 12%? I am not sure. They add always much feints.

And when you have 10l 12% in the boiler and 2.5kg apples above, you have altogether 12.5l with only 9.6%!

[der wo]

But I am still sceptical about the right ABV. Recipes for (legal definition of "Geist") macerated fruits results in higher ABV in the boiler pot. For most berries it i recommended to use 2-3 parts berries (measured in kg) to 1 part grain neutral spirit at 96% ABV. The final ABV in the boiler can be up to 30% ABV. For raspberries 1 part berries to 1 part neutral seems to be the right ratio (even when diluted with water the ABV in the pot up to 40-50%).

That is the perfect condition to start your experiments.

I researched a few recipes from German professional distillers and you are right, they use a much higher abv. I found not many, but they are between 18 and 35% (the fruits included in the calculation). But I think that are old recipes for potstill distilling. I only found one professional recipe for distilling with plates. This only one recommends (the fruits included in the calculation) 12%.

[Kareltje]

Kareltje, remember: we are not talking about fermented fruits! We are talking about fresh/frozen fruits and neutral spirit.

You got a very good point there!
I made wine of fruit before I started to distill. My very first spirit was made of a wine of 2 kg sloe and 1,5 kg sugar in 5 litres wine. Making a mash of the sloe and pecto-enzyme, straining it, and again and fermenting it with sugar.

I have to admit that I keep thinking of the difference between
a) the distilate of fermented fruit as such,
b) the distillate of wine of fermented fruit and sugar,
c) the distillate of a macerate of the same fruit,
d) the distillate of a fruit in the vapor path.

I think a hundred years and a thousand runs are necessary to gain the experience to begin to compare and value the results of these methods. I do not have the patience or equipment for that.
For the time being, I think I trust der wo 's experience.

[Kareltje]

A very practical question: when one mashes a fruit one gets a mash or a paste. This seems impenetrable for a vapor or even a liquid: the easiest way for vapor is to flow around this mash.
How do you make sure the vapor flows through the fruit, touches all the parts and takes taste and flavour from it?

[der wo]

I would not mash it to a paste, perhaps it could become dangerous (blocking) or perhaps it would fall in the boiler and scorch.
The fruits always look a bit like dried after distilling, not like a puree (as you expect perhaps). Sloes look a bit like raisins or wrinkled olives, apple pieces a bit like candied fruits. I think much of the water in the fruits drips down while distilling. So if it looks not blocking, when you fill in the fruits, it will not block while distilling.

I think (even though I was never sitting in the vapor and watch it), the fruits have to be opened, that the vapor can easily in and out. So I would always cut or squeeze fruits like sloes or rosehips. Fruits like raspberries or of course cutted apples will be no problem for the vapor getting through. The fruits always look like the vapor was 1000 times everywhere after distilling.

I don't think the vapor flows through or around the fruits. I think the vapor condenses at the fruits and gets in or drips back and after the fruits are heated up and soaked with alcohol the distillation starts. So technically vapor infusion and mazeration is less different than it looks (I am destroying my philosophy just now). But still the taste is much different (Phew! I safed it).

[Kareltje]

According to your description the fruit looks a bit like it is dried out!
I made some juice by steamextraction: load a basket with pieces of fruit and let steam surround and condense on this fruit and then extract the taste and flavour. Afterwards the fruit looked like you describe it: wrinkled and extracted.

Your story makes sense and takes away my fear of blocking. Just load it, do not press it together.
Thanks.