Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

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artooks
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Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

Hi Everyone,

Trying to make a combination of some recipes, I come up with this recipe.

Multivitamin Wash 30lt Neutral Recipe

Recipe

* 6.65 kg Sugar
* 25.9 lt Water
* 6 Centrum Multivitamin
* 11 gr Boiled yeast component
* 2 tsp Lemon Juice
* 7.5 gram Epsom Salt - (1tsp Epsom Salt: 4 gr)
* 18 Gram DAP
* 66 gr Bakers Yeast

SG: 1.085


Everything is looking good but since I started this recipe, I am also taking daily gravity data.

Started the recipe on 15.12.2017 @ 1.085
16.12.2017 @ 1.070
17.12.2017 @ 1.054
18.12.2017 @ 1.040
19.12.2017 @ 1.036
20.12.2017 @ 1.030
21.12.2017 @ 1.027
22.12.2017 @ 1.023
23.12.2017 @ 1.020

It has been 8 days it still bubbles very little, but it has been 8 days, My tempreature controlled fermentation tank is set @27 Degrees Celcius ( 80 Fahrenheit). It looks like after 8 days it slowed down, I was targeting this to be dry in a week, but it is not the case.

I suspect the yeast amount is not sufficient ? what do you think, Should I lower the DAP a little bit, also would it help to increse the fermentation temp to 30 degrees celcius ? should I discard the lemon juice ?

My target is 1 week, what modifications should I make for this recipe to be dry in 1 week, I appreciate the help.

Thanks


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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by DrMalt »

IMHO your are asking a lot from Bakers yeast to shoot for a 12% abv wash. It stresses the yeast and you end up getting more heads and tails instead of the good stuff. Reduce the starting gravity to about 1.060 and shoot for 8% for a faster, cleaner, ferment next time.

The yeast may still reduce the remaining sugars over time. Try aerating the wash and adding more nutrients like a yeast energizer would be helpful. I don't see a calcium source in your ingredients, are you able to test pH? Some form of calcium may help, especially if pH has dropped to around 4. Calcium Carbonate being the best choice right now.

High gravity washes need a lot of oxygenation in the first few days. Stir it vigorously in the fermenter the first few days.

Has the temperature dropped? That will slow things down as well. Adding heat might be helpful.

Good luck.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by NZChris »

SG too high for bread yeast and you may be short on the nutrients that tomatoes and bran provide in the Tried & True recipes, so you might have to sit on your hands and wait.

No mention of pH. If that has got out of hand, it's usually too late to try raising it with calcium carbonate, slaked lime works well.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by StillerBoy »

The Ph is the issue here.. as stated, a Ph below 4 will slow down the baker's yeast.. plus that high of a sugwr wash will take 8 - 10 days, and that's if the Ph is kept above 4..

Baker's yeast will do 16 - 18%, but the Ph has to be watched and kept at 4.5, and will take 10 days or so to go dry..

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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by Expat »

+1 to the above. PH is your likely cause for the slow down.

I run a similar wash for my neutrals, except 30 or 40 gallons of wash.

Simplest way to avoid this is to add a large handful of oyster shells to the wash at the beginning. They will start to dissolve if the wash becomes to acidic, else they just sit on the bottom and can be reused! Available at farm type stores

For the current wash, add a couple tablespoons of potassium bicarb or sodium bicarbonate if you don't have it, which should bring down the PH.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by Saltbush Bill »

StillerBoy wrote:Baker's yeast will do 16 - 18%,
Correct Stillerboy, I dont know where people get the idea that it struggles at 12%.
In saying that I still wouldn't suggest making a wash any higher than 12%
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by still_stirrin »

ExpatLad wrote:+1 to the above. PH is your likely cause for the slow down....add a couple tablespoons of potassium bicarb or sodium bicarbonate if you don't have it, which should bring down the PH.
Right action...wrong direction.

An acidic wash, which this no doubt is, will have a LOW pH. The carbonates will RAISE the pH (remember 7.0 is neutral and above that is basic, while below that is acidic).

Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is a weak base, so it would take a BUNCH of it, which would result in a high sodium concentration. Calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) is a much stronger base and will be 10x more effective at raising a low pH. Plus, yeast like calcium too.

Potassium is a yeast nutrient which is valuable during the budding phase (reproduction). So a potassium carbonate would have been more useful earlier in the fermentation stage. But, the yeast cells (from the boiled yeast dregs) will provide a lot of the necessary nutrients for the fresh yeast’s metabolism. The DAP is also a nutrient providing phosphorus and nitrogen to the yeast. Magnesium sulfate (epsom salts) is also a nutrient which helps yeast function, well, at least the magnesium. The sulfurs can and will “funk up” copper in your still and can give you the “rotten egg” smell from the ferment. So don’t add more than a teaspoon per 25 liters (5 gallons).

You added 2 teaspoons of lemon juice, which probably wasn’t needed at all. With all the other nutrients you added, including the crushed multivitamin, you have plenty of nutrients for this ferment. But I highly suspect that you’ve had a pH crash...causing the retarded attenuation.

If you inverted your sugar, then the lemon juice is used to catalyze that process. But I don’t think you need additional lemon juice in the sugar wash.

Next time, pay attention to the pH of the wash at the start. And add some calcium carbonate (chicken scratch) up front. It will help buffer the “nose dive” of your pH.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

Hi,

Thanks for all the input, so I will remove the lemin juice
What should be the amount of Dap, Epsom Salt,Boiled yeast and Multivitamin
İn a wash like this ?
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by bluefish_dist »

Cut back the sugar a little. I run a 1.08 wash weekly with bread yeast. Finishes in 3 days. You can up the temp a little as well. Bread yeast can run 85-90 deg no problem.
You do need to watch ph. Should be 5.2-5.4 at pitch and add calcium if it gets below 4, which it will probably do.

I add citric and calcium up front, the citric reduces the ph and also allows more calcium to dissolve. Then add calcium carbonate along the way as sugar washes have very little buffering capacity.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by still_stirrin »

artooks wrote:What should be the amount of Dap What’s the jar of DAP recommend?
Epsom Salt 1 tsp for 10 gallons should work
Boiled yeast I think 1 cup per 5 gallons is plenty
Multivitamin I add 1 B-complex per 5 gallons
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by StillerBoy »

artooks wrote:What should be the amount of Dap, Epsom Salt,Boiled yeast and Multivitamin
İn a wash like this ?
Don't try to re-invent the wheel... its all here.. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =14&t=6782

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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by shadylane »

still_stirrin wrote:
artooks wrote:What should be the amount of Dap What’s the jar of DAP recommend?
Epsom Salt 1 tsp for 10 gallons should work
Boiled yeast I think 1 cup per 5 gallons is plenty
Multivitamin I add 1 B-complex per 5 gallons
Here's my basic idea for a sugar wash
Yeast, loves the nutrients supplied by boiled yeast :thumbup:
Yeast, makes better and faster alcohol when the OG is 1.07 or even less
Lot's of crushed oyster shells will help with the pH and add more nutrients
As best you can, keep the fermenter temp constant, and warm enough :clap:
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by Kegg_jam »

I always had a PH crash on sugar washes. Something to do with my water.. maybe.

So what worked for me is a good strong yeast colony to start with (yeast bomb), some PH buffering (shells of some sort), and a reasonable starting gravity.

You can get the fermentation time down to a few days. But why be in such a hurry? Best to get a system going where your not waiting on a ferment to finish... ya know, always have something going so you don’t have to wait.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by jb-texshine »

I believe it was rad that did some experiments on alcohol tolerance of bakers yeast... seems like he step Fed a ferment to 16-18% if I remember right.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

Thanks everyone,

Yes as far as I can remember from what I read Rad mixed the washes and as a result he got 16-18% ABV from Bakers Yeast, Today I will check the PH of my ongoing wash, so what I understand is due to lack of a calcium source I experienced a PH Crash, so next time I will add some Calcium Carbonate to avoid this. But apart from that, I think I added almost what yeast needs, Multivitamin, Epsom Salt, DAP, The only thing I am wondering is the amounts correct, for example for DAP, I read the insturctions it says add 3-6 grams per 10 Lt wash so I took 6 grams and added 18 grams for 30 Lt, for Epsom Salt, I weighed 1 teaspoon and find out that it is 4 grams and followed Rad's measurement for Mega Man for Epsom Salt, for Multivitamin to be honest I had some at the home, which was near to the expiry date so I used 6 tablets, some recipes only use 1-2 I may used a little bit more here, so what do you think ? Do you think this wash is Ok in terms of nutritional point ? I am trying to eliminate the problems one by one to focus on the problem that is going to be left, I am doing my fermentations in a temperature controlled enviroment, I will raise the temp tp 30 degrees celcius, I think it will be better since bakers yeast is better with these temperatures. Finally for the Calcium Carbonate how much per lt or Gallon I need to use ? Thanks.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by still_stirrin »

The carbonate uptake will be proportional to the H+ ions....meaning, the lower the pH the greater the carbonate will be released. You haven’t said what the wash’s pH measurement is so your question isn’t really “answerable”. However, if the pH rises, the carbonate uptake will subside. So, you can’t really add too much. I’d speculate that 1/2 to 1 cup per 25 liters or 5 gallons should be adequate for most circumstances.

But if you want to raise the pH quickly, use a little calcium hydroxide (pickling lime). It’ll raise the pH very quickly. Mix a tablespoon in a little warm water making a milky slurry and add it to the ferment a little at a time till the pH gets back to the 4.5 to 5.0 range.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

Hi,

Just took a PH reading from the wash it is 3.08, This is clearly the problem as you stated, so at this point it is already day 9 would it be possible or does it make any good at this point to raise the PH and if so how ?
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

I do not have calcium hyrdoxide at the moment, would it help to use Lalvin EC-118 to restart the stuck fermentation but it looks like the wash has become very acidic even the introduction of new yeast colony will be useless what do you think ? Today I took another reading it is still at 1.020 so it looks like it is stuck.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by bluefish_dist »

Adjust ph first. Get it above 4. Then if it doesn't restart, add some yeast. If it still won't start, let it clear and run it. You just won't get as good a yield, but it will run ok.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by Expat »

You'll need to up the PH before you repitch yeast or you just kill a second yeast starter.

Look to the above, with either calcium hydroxide (pickeling lime), potassium bicarbonate or in a pinch sodium bicarbonate.

If you end up using sodium bicarbonate be careful how much you use as it also adds sodium (salt) to your wash which yeasties don't like in high quantities.

Try to get the pH closer to 5 and then repitch.
Last edited by Expat on Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

Ok I get it, I was thinking about it, for example in a All-Bran wash, what we have is:

Bran Flakes
Boiled Yeast
Epsom Salt

no calcium source, so as the only thing different with this wash is Bran Flakes, so how does it manage to keep the PH at range ?
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by still_stirrin »

The bran flakes have nutrients, including calcium, many vitamins, and even iron. These all help to buffer the pH drop as the yeast converts the sugars.

The current sugar wash is not the same as the bran flake or corn flake recipes.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

Thanks SS, so what do you think about the PH being 3.08
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

When I started this hobby and still did sugar washes, the all bran wash worked as advertised. It tended to finish out in 3 days or so, I then cold crashed for 3 days and ran it. You can't go too far wrong with this recipe if you want a neutral-ish wash. I've since graduated to all grain mashes, and find no use for refined sugar in any of my ferments. The only exception would be a rum, but I'm not a big fan of rum.

FWIW, if you are a grain fan, you will accumulate enough feints/failed experiments that you can run through your CCVM to make all of the neutral that you need. As I've said before Artooks, you'll get there. It seems like your on your way now. Merry Christmas.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by still_stirrin »

artooks wrote:Thanks SS, so what do you think about the PH being 3.08
Electric!!!

Every point in pH is 10x more than the previous...3.0 is 10 times more acidic than 4.0.

You’re not going to get anything to ferment unless you raise the pH. And calcium carbonate will help a little. But calcium hydroxide would be much better. Possible potassium hydroxide would work too if you could get that. But baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is not going to touch a 3.0 pH. You need a stronger base asap.

Or run it and leave the extra sugar behind. But, with that low of pH it will affect your distillate’s flavor.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

Ok, I get it now, thanks, in some recipes they also use Gypsum, I think it is now a must for the Sugar Washes to add Calcium as well to act as a buffer.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by still_stirrin »

artooks wrote:Ok, I get it now, thanks, in some recipes they also use Gypsum, I think it is now a must for the Sugar Washes to add Calcium as well to act as a buffer.
Gypsum is calcium sulfate. The calcium is good for mashing grains as it helps accelerate saccharification. I don’t think it’s the right thing to add to a sugar wash. And don’t forget...its the carbonates that increase pH...not the calcium.

As I keep saying...use pickling lime to raise the pH in an acidic ferment. To help stabilize (buffer) the sugar wash from crashing pH, add calcium carbonate to the ferment as soon as the ferment starts.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

Hi, thanks for all the info, I was reading about PH Buffers, saw that Egg Shells are also being used to regulate the PH, is that so, if that is Ok for an 8 Gallon wash how much egg shell should I used and how should I introduce them in the wash, should I first boil the egg shells and crush them with mortar and pestel and add them as is ? or should I put them without cracking them just 2 halves for each egg does that matter ?
just wondering how to calculate how much egg shells for 8 Gallon wash, thanks.
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

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artooks wrote:Hi, thanks for all the info, I was reading about PH Buffers, saw that Egg Shells are also being used to regulate the PH, is that so, if that is Ok for an 8 Gallon wash how much egg shell should I used and how should I introduce them in the wash, should I first boil the egg shells and crush them with mortar and pestel and add them as is ? or should I put them without cracking them just 2 halves for each egg does that matter ?
just wondering how to calculate how much egg shells for 8 Gallon wash, thanks.
The shells being suggested are Oyster shells, rather than egg shells. Egg shell is still calcium carbonate but its much much thinner than oyster shells, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. I would wash and dry the shells, and lightly crush them, but nothing special other than that I would think. The only concern I see is that they're they don't have much density so they'll probably dissolve quickly with a low PH. You'd need a lot of egg shells to equal a cup of crushed oyster shell.

Most farm feed stores carry oyster shells for poultry, since they use up a lot of calcium making egg shells :lol:
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Re: Having a Problem with a Sugar Wash Recipe

Post by artooks »

Thanks ExpatLad but I need to know how many eggs I need for an 8 Gallon Wash. I don't know but I do not feel very comfortable with oyster shells thinking that it could give me flavours that I do not want, and I do not know where I should get the oyster shells for this purpose ?
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