NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

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Flamethrower1
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by Flamethrower1 »

When I noticed the small amount of vapor escaping I did turn up the flow and it did not make any difference and I have a 3/8 tube going right to the condenser so I know I can probably run at least 4 -5 GPM of 55 degree well water through it, so that is not the issue.
When I touched the outside of it it was cold.
Will have to revisit the mash thing though as it in now way smelt fruity it was very sour smelling, thought maybe I let it sit on the lees too long or at least that is what I was hoping.
If I run the spirits again will they clean up or will the cardboard taste always be there?
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by pope »

Maybe post about your shotgun condenser build here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=87 I'd be interested in seeing pictures if you have any of the construction.

When you do a final spirit run, taking good cuts you will assuredly have a superior product to what you have now. Then give it some time on oak and you'll likely be quite pleased. Have you posted in the welcome center yet? It would be a good place to elaborate on your past brewing experience.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by HDNB »

bread to sour is my normal experience.

bread to puke is idicative of butyric producing bacteria, and esterfication to tropical fruit smells would be the next logical step in that process; I'd love to learn more about that...how you are getting consistancy on that...maybe you could do a thread in recipe development?

i have a 4 tube 21 inch shotgun and it's not as efficient as one would think too.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by pope »

HDNB wrote:how you are getting consistancy on that
I don't boil my corn, I just add it to boiling water.. could be that anything living on the grain just doesn't die off completely? I also let the mash come down in temperature on it's own, adding malt about 12 hours after adding corn, and adding yeast about 12 hours after that, so there's a long span of time when the sugars are converted but there is no yeast.

Not quite sure, but I usually get those smells on the first ferment and then once I start to introduce backset in subsequent fermentations, those smells disappear and it's just a very uniform sour mash smell once CO2 production dies down. But I tend to get lactobacillus forming as a film on the surface if I leave the mash for more than a few days after fermentation is complete. I did just finish a oat/wheat/rye fermentation that went from puke to bread over the 2-3 days following the completion of fermentation.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by Flamethrower1 »

Just finished fermenting another batch of this recipe.
Followed all the instructions to a tee.
Even used enzymes to insure conversion.
Paid extra attention to sanitizing to make sure I had better results this time around.
All I can tell you is this batch smells sour as well.
If it were a fart, it would clear a room.
I have made probably 50 or 60 batches of beer and wine and never lost a single one.
I started another batch (different recipe) using just Red Star yeast.
It has been fermenting for 5 days now and smells like roses compared to the last 2 times of this recipe with the White Labs yeast.
I am just going to dump this one and try again with the Red Star and see what happens.
Oh well
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Flamethrower1 wrote:Just finished fermenting another batch of this recipe.
Followed all the instructions to a tee.
Even used enzymes to insure conversion.
Paid extra attention to sanitizing to make sure I had better results this time around.
All I can tell you is this batch smells sour as well.
If it were a fart, it would clear a room.
I have made probably 50 or 60 batches of beer and wine and never lost a single one.
I started another batch (different recipe) using just Red Star yeast.
It has been fermenting for 5 days now and smells like roses compared to the last 2 times of this recipe with the White Labs yeast.
I am just going to dump this one and try again with the Red Star and see what happens.
Oh well
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I think you keep dumping perfectly good whiskey down the drain. Whiskey smells different than beer. You should always run it.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by Flamethrower1 »

If you guys think it will be ok, I will run it.
Will just have to hold my breathe when I transfer it I guess

Thanks
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by still_stirrin »

Flamethrower1 wrote:....this batch smells sour...If it were a fart, it would clear a room.
It doesn't smell like a fart, does it? Farts smell like sulfur, that rotten egg smell.

If your ferment smells sour like lemonade instead of malty like a beer at finish would smell, then you've more than likely succeeded with the ferment finishing dry with all of the sugars consumed. If you followed the protocol and used the liquid enzymes, all the starch should have been converted to fermentable sugars and your yeast loved it.

As SCD suggested, RUN it! You'll love it...after aging properly.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Well now... My ferments often smell sour, not like beer, but I've never had to hold my breath when racking it.
If what you have really smells like a room clearing fart, your final whiskey might just taste the same.

But, ya gotta run it to find out! And let us know.
HDNB says fart whiskey eventually will taste like pineapples.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by rad14701 »

Flamethrower1 wrote:Will just have to hold my breathe when I transfer it I guess
You've obviously never smelled an active dunder pit...!!! :lolno: :sick:
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by Flamethrower1 »

I will state again, smells like a good/bad fart, if you know what I mean.
I took a peak inside the bucket and all looked good, nothing weird growing or foaming, but boy, it was not pleasant to smell.
Dont quite know what to think of it as I have never smelled something like that and considered it good.

Thanks, Greg
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by pope »

Flamethrower, how would you describe the smell and taste of the low wines?
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by DFBrews »

run it! all sorts of things go away in the aging process.


I have had a batch of this go butric and affectionately named it pukey bourbon. did more liberal cuts than i normally do and put it on oak. first 6 months it was pretty bad. but almost a year in it has come along nicely. only the tineist hint of butric still remains with the first sniff but it does not carry over when actually drinking
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by Flamethrower1 »

I cant believe you can take something that fowl smelling to something sweet tasting.
From the heads to the tails, I could taste the corn.
A good friend was over and had a couple of finger tastes right out of the collector and also said the same thing.
Definitely pleasing to the tongue, no doubt.
Will be doing this one again, going to have to step it up a bit though
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by NcHooch »

I made a batch several years ago where I soured the corn first (just placed it in a bucket with some water for about 4-5 days in the summer) .
It was the most nasty smelling mess you can imagine. I put it in a BOP and gelatinized it, then cooled it and added some crushed barley and rye. About this time I was thinkin I was wasting the grain since it smelled so bad. I mashed it out, chilled it , and pitch the yeast. It fermented fine, and at the end of a week, I strained it out and transferred it to the boiler (still smelled god-awful) . When I was running it, I could hardly stay near the flute cause it smelled so bad. I made my cuts and diluted it to 60% , and put it on new charred white oak, it took 4 years, but it ended up being a very good bourbon. Never would've guessed that from the smell tho.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by DFBrews »

How did you make your cuts being it smelled so bad?
Just on experience or taste etc?
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by NcHooch »

As I recall, after I aired it out for 24 hours, it tamed down enough where I could make out the cuts I thought I might still try to use :lolno:
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by Flamethrower1 »

I oaked my product in glass jars and ran them through several cycles of putting them in the freezer over night and then let them come back up to room temp before repeating.
I did this over a three week period.
Cleaned it up by running it through some drip coffee filters.
It was proofed to 90, a little hot I know but it is cold here.
It turned out very nice, very smooth and VERY good tasting.
Does rival anything over the counter that I hve tasted
Thanks NCHOOCH for sharing.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by bigbuck »

holy crap that's a long post but reguardless I'm going to try it! I know I read way back in post on how much beano to add but cant find it again, if I recall it was 3 crushed beanos? also after cracked corn is cooked and put into cooler will it hold a constant temp for a few hours? if I am going to add 1 lb of rye do I add 2 or 3 lbs of malted barley or just add rye extra? and here again I know I read this somewhere here , thanks for any help
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by japsinok »

After many successful UJSSM runs, I’m moving up to AG and wanted to try a rye-heavy bourbon, since that is my spirit of choice. I hope to get some feedback on where I might be spending time and materials unnecessarily. I came up with a recipe but it turns out to be similar to NChooch’s Carolina bourbon (which is appropriate since I grew up in the Old North State, though currently reside just to the north of TX) except for the 18% rye.

In a 10lb bill for a 5gal mash: 7.2# TSC cracked corn, 1.8# rye malt, 1.0# 6-row barley malt. According to my math, the malts give a diastatic power of 34.9, sufficient for my mash, but I also use “hamburger helper”(BSG alpha-amylase and Novozyme AG300L) at several steps.

My mashing protocol: I use my local tap, filtered/campden treated, which has given good results thus far for UJSSM so see no need to change. Weighed out 7.2# cracked corn in my BOP and added 2 gal water, plus 1 gal of backset from my first AG stripping run (original AG mash not sour, of course) and left it to hydrate overnight. The next day (Xmas day), heated to 160F, turned off heat to pre-mash (as suggested by der wo, I believe) by adding 2 cups 6-row, along with 2tsp alpha-amylase, 2tsp CaCl2 and left to sit covered for 30 mins. After the 30 min step, returned the mash to heat to a boil to fully gelatinize the corn; kept it at a simmering low boil for 1 hr with almost constant stirring using a flat edged long handle spatula. After the 1hr cook, turned off the heat and cooled to 160 by immersion in a wash tub filled with cold water out on the patio (took only ~ 15 mins with winter temps in the central USA). When it hit 160, added another 1.5tsp alpha amylase and CaCl2 (though the calcium may not have mattered). As it cooled to 145, I weighed 1.0# 6-row and 1.8# rye malted grains. When added at just under 145F, this brought the temp to ~138-140F. At this time, I also stirred in 1Tbsp AG300L glucoamylase and moved the pot inside to the stove top and covered with a blanket. After 2 hr, the temp was at 125 so I brought the temp back to 135F, and added a second Tbsp of AG300L glucoamylase. After 3 hr, again returned to 135F with heat and stirring, then covered with blanket and left overnight. Next morning (Monday) transferred to fermenter, topped it off to 5 gal,(which brought it to ~95F) mixed the mash thoroughly and strained 100ml into a graduated cylinder. The hydrometer read 1.080 (a little beyond optimal from what I have read). It was in fact super sweet so I think I got good conversion, though I do not yet have high confidence in the hydrometer reading as most of my experience to date is with sugar washes (heads distillate abv will tell). Once it was under 90F, added my 10gm DADY starter culture along with 1Tbsp Fermax nutrients. I ferment DADY at a constant 80F. It started bubbling within several hours and after 3.5 days is now under 1.010 (airlock still farting continually) and no longer has detectable sweetness.

Notes: I did not need to use my drill (joint compound) mixer at all, like I did on my very first AG and I suspect the premash addition of 6-row at 160F has something to do with this. I distill in a 5 gal alembic pot still. Indicator strips said the finished mash was approx. pH~5.0.

Questions:
1. Am I overdoing it by using both malted grains and enzymes. Or is there such a thing here as too much of a good thing? Are the enzymes a waste of $$$ or is the increased efficiency still a good thing?
2. My reading on the forum suggests optimal OG of 1.06~1.065 for an AG mash of this sort. Have I set myself up for off flavors by fermenting at 1.080 (11% pot alc)? (if in fact that is accurate). Should I have brought it down to 1.065 with water?
3. Since I’m mashing grains, was the CaCl2 still needed for enzymatic activity?
4. Since I’m mashing grains and using dead yeast backset, are the Fermax nutrients necessary, or even perhaps detrimental? I don’t want rocket fuel.

I plan to strip this weekend (if it is finished) and set up the next mash so would appreciate any feedback anyone has that might either help to simplify or eliminate unnecessary steps, and/or make the final product better after the spirit run.

Comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks!
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by der wo »

- I think you overdo it. But why not? Perhaps your time and the guaranteed success is worth it?
- Premashing is not my idea. It is suggested by NcHooch himself in the edited version of the recipe.
- Fermentable sugars taste sweeter than unfermentable ones. So I think, everything has worked well.
- 1.080 is ok IMO. I wouldn't dilute. Or only down to 1.070. 10% is normal for a Bourbon mash.
- If your water is not distilled or demineralized, you don't need add calcium for the enzymes. But when you use backset and later while fermentation to prevent a pH crash, it is good to add something. I never have used CaCl. I don't know. I always use calcium carbonate. And if I use backset in addition calcium hydroxide.
-Probably you don't need the fermax. But if it ferments too fast, I would rather place the fermenter colder than reduce the nutrients.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by japsinok »

Thanks for the feedback, der wo. Sorry, NcHooch, for the mis-attribution. With all of the reading and info uptake, it's sometimes hard to recall where I pick up details like pre-mashing, but I believe in proper attribution.
-The alpha-amylase was cheap, but the gluco was a bit more expensive so I may do a test to see if one has a greater effect than the other compared with malt grain enzyme activity. I now have 2 BOPs, a 34 and a 60 qt, and two burners, so the side-by-side test should be easy.
-The CaCl2 was a suggestion I read somewhere (again, can't recall the source). But I also have a bag of crushed oyster and coral so Ca carbonate is also at the ready. I have not tested for pH crash but will start to do that at the end of these runs if it does not finish around 1.000. I know the unfermentables affect FG but if I leave a little potential alcohol behind, so be it. I'm not greedy. Iodine test at the beginning gave a reddish brown, so it mostly converted to fermentables, I think.
- I may take your suggestion and start in a cooler place, and finish at 80F This mash took off almost immediately on Monday, and by Monday night and Tuesday morning the off gassing coming from the airlock was vigorous enough to extinguish a lighter flame. I'm hoping the very rapid takeoff doesn't affect flavor too much. Even at 80F, that is below the recommended temp for DADY, so it seems I can probably ferment a bit cooler based on the vigorous activity I get at 80F.
-I'm a molecular biologist, so the science of fermentation does not intimidate me. It is the art of proper techniques for fermenting and distilling that I hope to master.

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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by yakattack »

Sounds like you're doing fine. Think of the enzimes as insurance. Not necessary but a good thing. Also allows you to use less malt. This will help save some green.

How are you draining the wort from the grain? Or are you fermenting on the grain?

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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by bigbuck »

so I swung for the fences and attempted a triple batch of this, did my research and reading got mash together, cooked corn in 3 separate sessions back to back, put in large cooler(took half the night to cool to 150) :crazy: I wasn't expecting that but never the less, added malted barley and rye, and a pinch of beano, stirred occasionally and put in fermenter the next day and pitched yeast, about 8 hours later it was rolling good and this morning slowed to an occasional bubble and has all but stopped tonight and is starting to clear, is this normal on an AG mash or did something go wrong?
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by japsinok »

Yak, thanks for the vote of confidence. Maybe I'll just keep on using the enzymes. Insurance, as you say.

I'm fermenting on the grain. But could do it either way. Last summer I picked up an Enterprise antique cast iron sausage press at a local antique store. Cleaned it up and bought a strainer plate. (Couldn't believe they still make parts for those things!!). First I gravity strain the "easy squeezins'" into a 5 gallon bucket, then press the grains, a gallon at a time, through a paint strainer bag inside the sausage press. Coming out of the press, the grains are almost dry!! This evening I pressed a 10lb grain bill/5 gallon mash after fermenting and recovered a little less than 4 gallons after pressing; and it takes only a few minutes. I have not seen anyone use these on the site, so I hope the cast iron is not detrimental. It presses exceptionally well for a smaller mash, but probably too cumbersome for anything more than 10 gallons. And since I'm using it after fermenting, the contact with iron obviously has no effect on fermentation. I can post photos if anyone is interested.

I've read that fermenting on the grain vs off the grain can have different effects on the spirit. I'll eventually try pressing the mash and then fermenting just to see the difference. Got an opinion on that?

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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by japsinok »

Well, so far so good. Stripped my first Carolina rye-bourbon this evening. Stopped the ferment at 1.007, from OG of 1.085 (after temp correction) which calculated to 10.24%. Estimated recovery of 15l of 10% mash = 1.5l of 100%, or 3.75l of 40% low wines. I usually don't collect stripping fractions since it all goes into the carboy for the spirit run. But since this is a first time experiment, I collected 150ml of foreshots at 65% and 18 200ml fractions that I measured abv and converted to 100% alcohol content. 18x200ml fractions plus 150ml of foreshots gave me a total of 3750ml distillate. Calculating the content of each fraction and totaling them up gave me a total of 1439ml of 100% alcohol. 1439/3750 = 38.4% (amost the 40% that is according to calculations), but since I discarded the first 150 ml of 65% foreshots (98ml of 100%), the final low wines came in at 1341/3600 = 37.3%. So I kept 3600ml of 37.3%, vs a calculated amount of 3750ml at 40%. I'll take it!!

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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by der wo »

bigbuck wrote:so I swung for the fences and attempted a triple batch of this, did my research and reading got mash together, cooked corn in 3 separate sessions back to back, put in large cooler(took half the night to cool to 150) :crazy: I wasn't expecting that but never the less, added malted barley and rye, and a pinch of beano, stirred occasionally and put in fermenter the next day and pitched yeast, about 8 hours later it was rolling good and this morning slowed to an occasional bubble and has all but stopped tonight and is starting to clear, is this normal on an AG mash or did something go wrong?
Let it finish a few days and then distill it. Take a FG reading before distilling. For me it sounds like that you had a bad conversion. But perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps it fermented very hot and fast, or your fermenter is not 100% sealed. A FG and the low wines amount and strength will clear it up.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by bigbuck »

got a really really slow bubble this morning and seems to have developed a white film on top, i have never attempted an AG wash before and not sure if this is normal or not?
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Post by der wo »

A white film doesn't sound well. The top of an AG looks not much different than from a grain sugarhead. Perhaps an infection. Was the fermenter always closed at least since the fermentation started to slow down? Did you add shells or other calcium at the beginning? Do you know the hardness of the water?
I would distill it as soon as possible.
Check the smell (it smells sharp for sure, but more like vinegar or only because of the CO²?), taste (sweet or sour?), the pH and the FG before distilling if possible.
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