NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Badlands86 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:47 pm

Thought you gents running this might appreciate my setup,it helps pretty substantially.http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62105

Also, if any of your corn gets ridiculously thick, you might try a high temp alpha amylase. Works wonders.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby tosoutherncars » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:45 pm

Just starting a *triple* batch... to be run through my simple 21 Qt pressure cooker pot still when ready. It'll be my second NChooch Carolina Bourbon, loved the first batch!

-D
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Dima » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:01 pm

Learned my lesson: do not use cheap SS pots on induction stove - 5 minutes after I put it on came the smell of burning. Will try to do it again tomorrow, will get myself a better pot :)
Not that much corn had actually burned, just very fine powder, I am debating weather I should throw it all away or drain water and use the corn ?
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby NcHooch » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 am

Dima wrote:Learned my lesson: do not use cheap SS pots on induction stove - 5 minutes after I put it on came the smell of burning. Will try to do it again tomorrow, will get myself a better pot :)
Not that much corn had actually burned, just very fine powder, I am debating weather I should throw it all away or drain water and use the corn ?


I've always used a cheap 8 gallon stainless pot. you must stir when heating!
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Dima » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:18 am

I did stir it, have SS paint mixing propeller attached to my drill the material on pot is so thin it turned blue/black where inductive heater is
Got pot with thicker bottom and it went quite well. the smell is incredible! felt like eating some of it )
I failed to read the whole tread later edition of recipe calls for crushed barley but i put whole grain malted barley, which i think made a difference(obviously)
My fermentation is stuck at 1.010 for the past 5-6 days, tried adding little bit of yeast, little bit of nutrient, had it nice and warm but will not budge lower than 1.010, tastes sweet too
i guess i will be running what i got and try another batch.
Will rig up a stand for my drill to mix corn through entire process and mill the barley I got.
Got to get a ph tester and some iodine for next time, maybe some amylases to help as well. I use reverse osmosis filtered water, seems to work very well with all recipes so far(birdwatchers, UJSSM, Sweetfeed), but maybe acidity is not best for this Bourbon it being only one relying on grains alone.
Will make piggyback recipe from grains that i have left, that you described in one of the posts
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby matt_b » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:19 am

A quick question about ingredients. I dropped by the local feed store to pick up a bag of cracked corn and the gentlemen there suggested a fine grind rather than cracked corn. They had a couple of bags handy, so I bought one for $6/50lbs. My thought was I wouldn't have to boil it as much as cracked corn. But later I was reading that you boil corn for a mash to help break down long chain sugars, so the yeast can more efficiently convert them to alcohol. My question is, should I still boil the fine ground corn for half an hour or so, or if I put it in my barrel and pour boiling water in with it is that sufficient?

I thought it was all common sense then someone had to go and use science on me!
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby zapata » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:17 pm

You can get by without boiling, the finer grind will help. I think you get better results boiling though if you can, even with the finer grind. Btw, its not to break down long chain sugars, but to release the starch so the enzymes can convert them to sugars.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby NcHooch » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:11 pm

matt_b wrote:A quick question about ingredients. I dropped by the local feed store to pick up a bag of cracked corn and the gentlemen there suggested a fine grind rather than cracked corn. They had a couple of bags handy, so I bought one for $6/50lbs. My thought was I wouldn't have to boil it as much as cracked corn. But later I was reading that you boil corn for a mash to help break down long chain sugars, so the yeast can more efficiently convert them to alcohol. My question is, should I still boil the fine ground corn for half an hour or so, or if I put it in my barrel and pour boiling water in with it is that sufficient?

I thought it was all common sense then someone had to go and use science on me!


Technically, you don't boil corn for a mash to help break down long chain sugars, so the yeast can more efficiently convert them to alcohol....
You boil the corn to release the starch from the corn. then, once you toss in the malted barley, the enzymes in the malt break down the starch into fermentable sugars.

Generally, you need to cook the corn for a while....just pouring boiling water on it won't get the job done.
Ever make grits? they start out watery, and the longer you cook 'em the thicker and creamier they get. You're doing the same thing with the cracked corn. Cook it until it's thick and starchy, like concrete.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby NcHooch » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm

Dima wrote:I did stir it, have SS paint mixing propeller attached to my drill the material on pot is so thin it turned blue/black where inductive heater is
Got pot with thicker bottom and it went quite well. the smell is incredible! felt like eating some of it )
I failed to read the whole tread later edition of recipe calls for crushed barley but i put whole grain malted barley, which i think made a difference(obviously)
My fermentation is stuck at 1.010 for the past 5-6 days, tried adding little bit of yeast, little bit of nutrient, had it nice and warm but will not budge lower than 1.010, tastes sweet too
i guess i will be running what i got and try another batch.
Will rig up a stand for my drill to mix corn through entire process and mill the barley I got.
Got to get a ph tester and some iodine for next time, maybe some amylases to help as well. I use reverse osmosis filtered water, seems to work very well with all recipes so far(birdwatchers, UJSSM, Sweetfeed), but maybe acidity is not best for this Bourbon it being only one relying on grains alone.
Will make piggyback recipe from grains that i have left, that you described in one of the posts


Sounds like you're on the right track. ...and yes, definitely mill the malted barley. :wink:
... good idea on the piggyback too ;)
Enjoy
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Chixter » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:12 pm

If you want to try the add boiling water/steep method, I recommend using flaked corn (maize) which is pre gelitanized from the steam rolling process. Cracked corn, even milled to a meal needs to be cooked 180+ for at least an hour to effectively release starches.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Bamaberry » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:52 pm

SuburbanStiller wrote:I tested the mash from my first attempt just before I ran it today, it finished at 1.018. Smelled sour, tasted very sour, no sign of infestation, no mold or any other change. I got a paint strainer bag to trap the solids, ran it through my long pipe pot still head.

Now let me tell you, the distillate was the most wretchedly disgusting bile I have ever created of anything ever in my 37 years on this planet. God-awful, stomach churning. Stunk up my whole stillin shed, and my shed only has three walls. I pulled 250ml (51% abv), tasted a bit from my finger. Yuck. Pulled another 250ml (43% abv) thinking that this is where the magic of the cuts is going to come in. Tasted even worse. Pulled another 250ml, noticed that the likker was getting a little cloudy. For some insane, suicidal reason I stuck my big ole stupid beak right in the mason jar and took a big whiff. Well I turned green, ran outside and very nearly lost it. I could taste my lunch coming up, just barely held it down. Shut down and threw out the whole damn mess, mash likker and all. I'm not bitching, just thought you guys might get a kick out of reading about my misfortune. :econfused:

I'd already decided to give this another go, so I boiled up some more corn. I gave it an honest 90 minute rolling boil this time on the propane, even got a drill powered paint mixer to do it justice. Guess I was kinda fartin around last time because the mash got way thicker than last time. Cooled it quickly to exactly 150 and mixed in my malt. It's all wrapped up out in the garage right now, will get the temp right in the am and pitch.

I tell ya, all grain is a bitch. Hope I can something good out of this before I get frustrated and give up. :? I did have to let my first batch sit for 2 weeks before I got to run it. Could that have caused me my trouble?


I know this is an OLD post. And I know less about forums than I do about distilling, which ain't much.
But it would be great to pull this thread with the comments/suggestions out of this thread and put it in a separate thread - "The Trouble With AG".
It's a great read and I'm still going through it.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby NcHooch » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:19 pm

SuburbanStiller wrote:I tested the mash from my first attempt just before I ran it today, it finished at 1.018. Smelled sour, tasted very sour, no sign of infestation, no mold or any other change. I got a paint strainer bag to trap the solids, ran it through my long pipe pot still head.

Now let me tell you, the distillate was the most wretchedly disgusting bile I have ever created of anything ever in my 37 years on this planet. God-awful, stomach churning. Stunk up my whole stillin shed, and my shed only has three walls. I pulled 250ml (51% abv), tasted a bit from my finger. Yuck. Pulled another 250ml (43% abv) thinking that this is where the magic of the cuts is going to come in. Tasted even worse. Pulled another 250ml, noticed that the likker was getting a little cloudy. For some insane, suicidal reason I stuck my big ole stupid beak right in the mason jar and took a big whiff. Well I turned green, ran outside and very nearly lost it. I could taste my lunch coming up, just barely held it down. Shut down and threw out the whole damn mess, mash likker and all. I'm not bitching, just thought you guys might get a kick out of reading about my misfortune. :econfused:

I'd already decided to give this another go, so I boiled up some more corn. I gave it an honest 90 minute rolling boil this time on the propane, even got a drill powered paint mixer to do it justice. Guess I was kinda fartin around last time because the mash got way thicker than last time. Cooled it quickly to exactly 150 and mixed in my malt. It's all wrapped up out in the garage right now, will get the temp right in the am and pitch.

I tell ya, all grain is a bitch. Hope I can something good out of this before I get frustrated and give up. :? I did have to let my first batch sit for 2 weeks before I got to run it. Could that have caused me my trouble?


HAHAHA !!
I don't care who you are, that's hilarious right there.
I can relate the the story, I think I even posted my own experience in the thread here. I tried to do a lacto corn fermentation. I tell ya what, it was terrible smelling, I can't even imagine what possessed me to mash it and distilled it.
interestingly enough, I kept mine for 4 or 5 years and then opened it one day, and it smelled like a fine bourbon.
I was confounded! ...I went back and double and triple-checked to make sure I had the "nasty jar" ...Damn if time doesn't make a good whiskey out of bad.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby matt_b » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:21 am

Gents, I need help with an ongoing issue. My end product tends to have a strong smell, and I can’t figure out why. I’m making NChooch’s Carolina Bourbon. I follow the recipe to the letter. The only step I leave out is adding Beano, and I believe that’s optional. I’ll describe the exact process, environment, and my still and ask if you guys can see where I’m fouling this up.

I’m using a T500 boiler with the alembic pot still copper condenser. Thanks to salty for advising I change out the reflux head. The potstill is a lot easier to use and doesn’t convert every batch to vodka in one fell swoop.

I’m using finely ground yellow feed corn that I pick up at the local feed mill. I use “Ohio Certified” barley (it's whole grain, I can't seem to find cracked). I’m careful not to add the barley until the corn mash has cooled to below 150F. I’m using red star yeast that I keep in the fridge until about an hour before I use it. I set aside what I intend to use, let it heat to room temp, then add warm water and a pinch of sugar. Note: this creates what looks a lot like a milkshake, which my son tried to sneak a sip of. Lesson learned! I don’t add the yeast until the temp is below 110F, which red star’s website says is a working temperature of the yeast I’m using.

The mash takes about 8 days to finish. I ferment in a 14-gallon food grade barrel, and use an aquarium heater to keep the temperature at 80F during the process. This is all done in my basement, which is at 71F anyway and pretty clean as basements go. I strain the mash pretty well using a double stainless sieve that sits on a 7-gallon bucket (650 and 1875 micron). Gonna try paint strainer bags on my next batch though. I don’t wait for it to clear, I strip it right after filtering it.

For the stripping run I’ll tap off 4-6 fluid ounces and toss it (based on smell). The rest I collect in 4-6 containers, stopping when ABV drops to about 15% coming out of the condenser. I’ll usually run two batches in a stripping run. Both freshly out of the fermenting barrel on the same day. I save the stripped product in glass gallon jugs (old milk jugs) and usually do a spirits run a day or two later. At this point, the product has a very sweet smell, reminiscent of a wet dog. But not overpowering.

During my spirits run I have a dozen large lab cups I use to collect product. The smell changing as I collect from heads to tails. I toss about 4 ounces of heads here too, more if the smell suggest I should. The end product ranges in smell from really clean to only slightly off odor. I mix based on smell and proof, always keeping one 750 of the absolute best set aside. I’ll mix product and distilled water until I have as much quality 100 proof as I can get together. Anything too smelly or odd tasting I set aside for tailings. I then age it in 750ml bottles with white oak sticks, some of which I've tossed because they stank like my end product.

But the end product seems to smell more “off” the older it gets. In fact, if I leave the hearts in the bottle a week or two, without any oak, it starts to smell odd. It’s frustrating to smell cups and think “hey that’s good” only to be faced with nasty product a few weeks later.

A few more details, if you aren’t asleep yet.
-I haven’t constructed a voltage regulator to control the T500 boiler yet. So, the heat creeps up during each run. Primarily it sits around 196F but towards the end of my spirits run it always creeps up to 210F and stays there. Not sure how important temperature is to the product coming out of the condenser. For the most part, it all smells nice.
-I use an Alcohol Refractometer to measure my %ABV. I’m curious why I can’t find reference to anyone else using these things, since they are cheap and seem to be very accurate. I have a hydrometer but… why?
-I clean my still between runs with mild soap and cool water. Though it’s really just a rinse, since it all seem to stay pretty clean.
-I rinse my buckets and barrel very well, but don’t “scrub and soap them” since they also seem pretty clean. Do I need to treat it more like a lab? There’s no indication my mash is going bad (not that I’m sure I’d know the signs as long as it fermented).

Based on NChooch's post just before this one, maybe I should set this nasty product on a shelf for a few months and check to see if time really does heal all wounds!
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby NEGaxSEGa » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:35 am

@matt_b Is that barley malted? Are you using any malt or added enzymes in your formulation?
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby matt_b » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:15 pm

I don't think so. I think it's just whole grain barley. No enzymes. I'm trying as much as possible to keep it simple, so I can get the basics perfect. I'll attach a picture of the barley and maybe you'll know if it's cracked, malted, or whole grain. Or Soy Beans and I've been hoodwinked!
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Barley4.jpg
I think it's whole grain
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby matt_b » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:15 pm

Nothing gents? I'm getting ready to do a run this weekend and if I can avoid botching it I'd sure be a happy boy.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Still Life » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:47 pm

matt_b wrote:Nothing gents? I'm getting ready to do a run this weekend and if I can avoid botching it I'd sure be a happy boy.

Not ignoring you.
I've looked all over for similar posts about Carolina Bourbon odor, and come up blank.
And your protocol looks good. Puzzling.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby acfixer69 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:49 pm

I've read that long procedure post and get distracted along the way. I don't see anything to convert the starch to sugar for the yeast. You need to have a malt or enzyme to convert. You could make it easier on relaying to most forum members speaking in hydrometer figures but you haven't stated brix either that I see. With no enzymes how do you get fermentation.

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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Chixter » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:27 pm

Nothing in your procedure tells of converting starches to sugars. Iodine test after mashing will tell you if you have good conversion. If you are pitching yeast into a starch pool, then distilling it.....no bueno. Malted grains and/or enzymes are needed. Convert...then ferment.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Still Life » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:14 pm

Saw the barley and missed that it wasn't malted.
You pretty much just have distilled grain water.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby matt_b » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:56 pm

Hmmm, I thought boiling the corn converted the starch to sugar for the fermentation. That said, maybe my barley isn't the right type. Been reading about malting and it seems likely I'm using the wrong ingredients. I'm guessing, but the part in the recipe about temps over 155F killing important enzymes may be where I'm going wrong. Maybe my non-malted barley doesn't have the enzymes I need?

I'm going to try and find some malted barley. Any advice on where to get it? Local feed mills don't seem to carry it. Or maybe I'm asking for the wrong thing.

Thanks again for your input folks. It's appreciated.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Still Life » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:30 pm

I'm sorry I missed the lack of malt previously. I was zeroing in on the odor only and missed that glaring point. Then got lost in reading.

Boiling the corn brings out its starch only.
Enzymes then must be used to convert that starch into fermentable sugars.
Enzymes comes from a malted grain, or from an added chemical enzyme itself.
No enzymes means no sugars, which means no alcohol.

Malted grains can be bought online if there isn't a home brewer grain shop near you.
Or you can use these popular enzymes.
They have a tutorial there on how to use them.

It would serve you well to read up on mashing procedures such as here.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby matt_b » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:08 am

I've read a few books and I'm familiar with the Enzymes. I just didn't know regular barley wouldn't provide them, at least in the necessary quantity. So, I've ordered some malted barley and will give it another shot. I do have two questions though. First, I'm curious how detailed of measurements/notes you gents take and at what points in the process. Second, i'm curious why everyone says not to use turbo yeast, but it seems totally ok to use enzymes. Isn't turbo yeast really just Yeast + Enzymes + Sugars (sort of a fermentation bomb)? I guess I'm curious what's in that turbo yeast package that creates off flavors.

Thanks for taking the time to help out. I'll take a hint and make shorter posts in the future!
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Still Life » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:15 am

Some Turbos have enzymes and are labeled as "Whiskey Yeast" and are intended to be used with grain.
But all Turbos have excessive nutrients. Excessive to the point of being like going to work with a head full of meth.
It stresses the yeast for the sake of high ABV, and the price of stressed yeast is off-flavors.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby matt_b » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:59 pm

Ah OK. Thanks Still Life, appreciate the education. I'm slowly getting my head around this. I re-read the sections in a couple of books about Amylase enzymes, but they didn't mention some important details. I guess Barley has a lot of Beta but you need to malt it to release the Alpha enzymes. I wanted to make whiskey and I'm becoming a combination chemist and botanist! Going to mix the barley in for the cows, and start using malted barley in my next run. For the time being I won't add any enzymes, in hopes using the right ingredients fixes my problem. If/when that fails, I'll go chemist on this thing.
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby NcHooch » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:02 pm

matt_b wrote:
I use “Ohio Certified” barley (it's whole grain, I can't seem to find cracked). I’m careful not to add the barley until the corn mash has cooled to below 150F.

-I use an Alcohol Refractometer to measure my %ABV. I’m curious why I can’t find reference to anyone else using these things, since they are cheap and seem to be very accurate. I have a hydrometer but… why?



...You never told us what you got for readings on the refractometer ... and were you measuring the sugar in the wort?, or the ABV of the white dog?

Nevertheless, if you were using whole grain barley (like a food grain) that'll just make starch water, As some of the other said, you must use crushed Malted barley, brewers malt, Pale Malt, 2-row, or 6-row, beer malt , even malted wheat will work. You'l need to buy this at a brewing shop...food/feed stores don't sell malt.

Give it another shot, and i'm sure you'll be happy with your results :wink:
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby matt_b » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:24 pm

Opened my newly acquired MALTED barley today while cooking up a new batch. Holy **** that stuff smells good! Malted barley has a smell that makes my mash smell like a little bit of heaven. I feel like a kid who never liked waffles and just got his first taste of some with syrup. I'm a bit embarrassed to have missed it, but it's totally offset by my excitement about what the next round of whiskey will taste like.

Cheers!
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby acfixer69 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:29 pm

Holy **** that stuff smells good! Malted barley has a smell that makes my mash smell like a little bit of heaven. I feel like a kid who never liked waffles and just got his first taste of some with syrup.

I like that line may use it


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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby zapata » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:00 pm

Hell yeah! If I weren't afraid of critters, I'd sleep on a pillow of malted barley!
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Re: NChooch's Carolina Bourbon

Postby Bamaberry » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:14 pm

matt_b wrote:I don't think so. I think it's just whole grain barley. No enzymes. I'm trying as much as possible to keep it simple, so I can get the basics perfect. I'll attach a picture of the barley and maybe you'll know if it's cracked, malted, or whole grain. Or Soy Beans and I've been hoodwinked!

I AM A NOOB
:mrgreen:
Reading your "adventure" with interest.
I don't know how much barley you bought but you might consider malting it yourself.
I bought a 55# bag of it and started off malting 6 pounds for 12 gallons of Jimbo's Wheated Bourbon.
I'll tell you I stumbled and fell a couple of times and it was a PITA!!!!
But with help, I got it right and it's fairly[u][/u] easy.
Here's a link:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=67744
I malted both barley and wheat. But since I didn't know what percentage actually malted, I added Alpha Amalyse to the brew and it turned out well.
Good luck!
:mrgreen:
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