Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

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mtnwalker2
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Post by mtnwalker2 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:54 pm

Quite honestly, I was thinking of some of you dry land gophers when I made that post. Grounding can be a bitch if ther's no ground. High amp electic fence loses charge without good ground.

I dig a hole as deep as possible with post hole diggers, drive the 10' irona= as deep as possible, with several inches atfp the grond. Fill the hole with soil and baking soda, 2 packs. in extemely dry areas use salts. Potassium nitrare, sodium nitrates, ammonium nitrates etc. Ground rod will deteriate over time, but they are cheap and work to keep you safe.

Before i did this I had lightning enter the house and make like a shotgun blast. Never has happened since .
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Dan Call
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Smiley's Recommendation for flour.....

Post by Dan Call » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:30 pm

The Smiley book, in the section "alternative mashing" or something like that....he suggests adding cold water to flour so that it doesn't clump up, but it doesn't work so well.

I've also found that pouring corn meal into boiling water is not a great idea either, totally clumps.

RadicalEd1
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Post by RadicalEd1 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:10 pm

I've had some corn (about 2 gallons with water added) souring for the last few days. They don't seem to be producing any more CO2 or acid, and it's sitting at a pH of 4.5 +/-.5 (I can never read those pH strips really well :oops:). Definitely not as funky smelling as it was a few days ago.

Do you think the pH is low enough to safely mash it in with some other corn? Worse comes to worse I happen to already have a bottle of lactic acid on hand so I could help it out a tad :D.

pintoshine
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Post by pintoshine » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:12 pm

RadicalEd1, I would say your first fermentation is good. Make sure to keep just a bit separate, unmashed as a starter. The rest you need to use to steep your ground corn over night. This will get it all a bit sour and make mashing real nice. Make sure to get the steeped corn at least gelled like corn mush. It will get as thick as pudding.
Then when it cools down to 154, add you barley malt. It will look like magic when you start stirring. I like to use wineo's trick from here on and put the whole thing in a cooler and let it work over night. The next day it is real nice and tan and sweet.

Old Goat
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Sour Mash

Post by Old Goat » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:10 pm

I don't know jack about making shine, being a new distiller, This is what I do. First, I cook off a bunch of cracked corn, after I have washed it etc. Then I cook it until the kernal is soft.Then when the temp is down to about 160 F or so, I add in the fine ground malted barley. This quickly thins out the mash. When it cools , I add the yeast.
Now for the sour mash, I drain off the beer and leave the yeast and whatever grain is left in the bottom. I then add a new batch of fresh mash. I don't concern myself with all this supplimental ingredients. If you put yeast and sugar together, you make alcohol. You ever think that the suppliers are making something simple difficult to make you spend more money?
I now have 5 gals mash added to old mash, and it smells sour, and is cooking well. I have more time to let the yeast work, as the specific gravity shows it has more sugar to cook. I am using red star champagne yeast for the first time and it is suppose to be a high alcohol tolerant yeast. the hyrometer showed I had a potiential of18% when I started,so, I will see where it goes. It has 5% sugar left to convert.
This is only my 4th or 5th batch, but I am learning.
My opinion is don't make anything simple difficult.
I am going to get some wheat and rye to see how this changes the flavor.
Happy distilling to all! :D
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pintoshine
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Post by pintoshine » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:22 pm

Old Ass you miss the point. this is a method to get the forth or fifth run taste in the first run. Many of us switch up and don't do the sour mash method so this is a starter for getting the complexity of the lacto fermentation in a single round.

Old Goat
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Post by Old Goat » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:21 am

Sorry, I just skimed through the first part of the thread. Living in moonhine country, I talked with an old-timer who said they used to sprout the corn before they cooked it. It's great you are trying all these new techniques. For me, I like the old tried and true methods. Like all this lacto-bacilli stuff just confuses an old country boy. Heck, it took me a few times before I figgered out how a hydometer works. Didn't take me long to figger out when those smelly tails start though.(I cant keep my finger off the drip line when distilling :lol: Good Luck. Happy 'Stillin!
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Post by Ricky » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:57 am

if you want to know what tails smells like get you some woodford reserve and add a splash of water. theyre in there.
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RadicalEd1
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Post by RadicalEd1 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:33 am

Thanks for the feedback, pint. So for clarification, I should:

1. Add soured corn to all the corn I will be mashing, let sit.
1a. Save a little bit of soured corn.
2. Cook corn at 180*f for 30 minutes.
3. Let corn cool to 160*f, mash in barley.
4. Maintain temp for conversion for some time (hour plus), optionally letting it sit overnight.
5. Strain out all solids.
6. Reduce water volume as necessary via boil, allow to cool.
7. Pitch yeast.
7a. Pitch lacto starter saved from 1a (or is that starter saved for some later time/purpose)?

Steps 3-7 are very familiar to me through my beer experience, and I have a nice cooler mash tun available as well.

I'll probably let the corn sour up today and mash tonight, if the above is true.

Thanks again!

pintoshine
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Post by pintoshine » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:50 pm

that is an excellent step by step summary. You nailed it.

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Post by RadicalEd1 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:01 pm

Excellent! I guess that technical writing class was worth it, after all :D. I have my grains mashing right now. I had a little trouble maintaining the cooking temp, especially because my big plastic spoon decided to wimp out at the temps and couldn't stir the bottom of my 15 gallon kettle well. Oh well, the first time only counts as a learning experience anyway! Any drinkable product is purely a bonus, as I see it :D.

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Post by BW Redneck » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:32 pm

Not meaning to derail the topic, but I think that you can solve your "wimpy spoon" problem by building your own out of wood like this one: http://pivo.northernbrewer.com/nbstore/ ... le&x=0&y=0

(Seriously, I don't know why they go to the trouble of selling these. Anyone who wanted one could make their own. I used to do a bit of woodworking, and it looks pretty easy to do. Even easier with a drill press.)

You might not want to use it after the mash is cooked, since wood can hold bacteria, but it would be useful for stirring a keg-sized mash. Beside, we're going to contaminate (sour) the stuff anyway, aren't we?
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Post by Old_Blue » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:09 pm

Old Ass wrote:
For me, I like the old tried and true methods.
Dooley tells me that his grandpa and daddy did it like this 70+ years ago, they just didn't know what to call it.

I quote Dooley:

"They dig a hole in the ground next to where they were going to set up and lay a tarp in it. Pour in broke corn and bucketed water out of the creek on top of it and cover it with brush. Throw croaker sacks of corn in the creek to sprout. After several days the corn (in the sacks) sprouted they'd grind the sprout with a hand grinder clamped to a board nailed between two trees and throw it in the pit with all the sour corn. This was a week before a run. Next week they'd pack in out in two days, working around the clock. Throw the dirt back in the hole and put the brush back on top of it. They'd time it when circuit judge was in town holding court because they knew all the law would be tied up with the judge all week."


Edit: Dooley wanted to add that make sure you skim of all the bugs, chipmunks, squirrels, and any black snakes that might have drowned in it before for you run it.
Last edited by Old_Blue on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RadicalEd1
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Post by RadicalEd1 » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:20 pm

One of those, or similar, is definitely on my wish-list, BW.

As an added consequence of my wimpy spoon, a short while ago I started draining my corn and discovered that the entire bottom half of the pot

A) was a solid, concrete mass, and
B) As a result of A no malt made it down that far.

YAAAARRRR!

So I'm heating up a big pot of water and I'll re-mash with some AG enzyme I have on hand, simply cuz at this point I'm too lazy to grind up more barley :p. For the future, I'll probably cut the amount of grain in half; my pot is just too deep for this :(.

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Post by wineo » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:52 pm

I decided to go ahead and start some sour corn to use as a starter for my corn/malt/wheat/rye whiskey,although its still cold in my basement.Heres what i did.I used 1-1/2 gallons of corn in a 2 gallon bucket filled almost to the top.I added boiling water,drained,and added more boiling water to bring the temp up past 180f.I also added 1/2 tsp of 88%lactic acid and 1 tsp of DAP.I also added a 1/4 tsp of gypsum,and 1/4 tsp of epsom salts.
I think by adding nitrogen{DAP},calsium{gypsum}and magnisum{epsom},and adding some lactic,It should speed up the process some.
{Hopefully}
I took a PH reading and its 5.5.Im going to throw another handfull of unwashed corn in there tomorrow in case the boiling water killed all the germs.
Im going to leave it for a few weeks,and see what I get.
I will keep you all posted.

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Post by wineo » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:20 pm

I checked on the sour corn starter tonight,and after 48 hours,its expelling
co2 at the rate of 1 bubble in the airlock every 3 minutes and its at 63f.The lactic,and neutrents must be working.

modenacart
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by modenacart » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:08 pm

What are you guys using for your corn? I can get cracked corn for chickens or whole deer corn for about 11 dollars for 50 lbs. Is this stuff good to use? Will the corn be harmfull to my maltmill?

pintoshine
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by pintoshine » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:22 pm

either corn should be fine. I can't get my malt meal to crush corn. It does ok with two row barley but corn causes it to lock up.

modenacart
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by modenacart » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:02 pm

Great, thanks. I get cracked corn for my chickens all the time and its pretty cheap. about 10 dollars for 50 lbs.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by WILDBILL2873 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:49 am

I HAVE REALY ENJOYED ALL THE IDEAS. I CROSSED THIS IDEA WITH UJSM. I EVEN REUSE THE LEFT OVER MASH IN THE FERMENTER TO CREATE MY OWN STRAIN OF YEAST. WHAT I LIKED ABOUT THAT IS THAT AFTER THE 4TH OR SO TIME IT STARTED TO TAKE LONGER TO FINISH AND THE FLAVOR IMPROVED. ONE THING THOUGH; I GET 3/4 GAL FROM EVERY 5 GALLONS OF WASH. EVEN WITH MY PACKING REMOVED AND THE REFLUX TURNED OFF IT COMES OUT AT NO LESS THAN 60%. I THINK I WILL HAVE TO GET A PARROT TO KEEP MORE FLAVOR AND NOT HAVE TO CUT IT DOWN. I'LL KEEP READING.
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blind drunk
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by blind drunk » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:24 pm

The converted wash tasted like a really sour version of malt extract wash.
Odd though, now it smells like peaches fermenting.
I've been reading this thread quite a bit and was wondering if the peach smell means the mash's gone sour or does corn and malt always smell like peaches. I ask because mine smelled just as described but I never soured it on purpose. But it could have spontaneously soured since the lactic bacteria is everywhere in my shop. My first time doing this so I have nothing to compare with. Great smell whatever it is. BD.
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brewzz
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:11 pm

Ok,I started a batch of this 4 days ago...It had been in the shed at about 105 deg. and smells terrible and has some greenish mold growing on top.Am I screwed,or can this still be saved by cooking and adding crushed barley???
Cheers,Brewzz
Cheers,Brewzz

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Hawke » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:56 pm

Never seen green mold on a ferment. 105 is a little too high for the yeast. If you run it, it will probably be pretty nasty.
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brewzz
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:27 am

No yeast in it yet.I'm doing the lactic acid ferment first.....Anyone else?Maybe I should just dump it.It's only 14 lbs.of corn and water,so it's not much of an investment...
Cheers,Brewzz
Cheers,Brewzz

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by muckanic » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:04 pm

Well, it may not make whiskey, but treating the low wines with alkali (specifically, sodium carbonate) can salvage many a fault. It will keep both bacterial acids and wild yeast medicinal phenols in the pot. Sulphides ought to blow off and/or be trapped by copper.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Dnderhead » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:09 pm

be careful with alkaline wash, can create ammonia and lead to a "blue" distilerant.

brewzz
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:38 pm

Well,I guess I was worried for no reason...I dumped some of the water along with the mold out of the buckets.Left it for a couple more days,and it smelled kinda like sour milk then.I also started another bucket with 8 lbs of cracked corn,about 1 1/2 gal water and 2 cups of salt for a brine.I read this on another thread as a way to start a lactic ferment as they do with kim chi.You rinse the salt out after 12 hours and add fresh water back to cover the corn to about half again it's height.That bucket smelled much better after 3 days.I put it all,24 lbs,in my fermenting keg,added 4 tbls of amalase,and brought it slowly up to 180deg.When it cools to 160,I'm gonna add 5 -6 lbs of crushed barley.I'm waiting for it to cool right now.I think I'm gonna add about 10 lbs of dissolved sugar to it after it converts fully.I will pitch 2 pks of prestige whiskey yeast with amalase when it's cool enough,probably late tonite,or in the morning.....Fingers Crossed.I will report back later.After that,I will treat it as a UJSM for 3 or 4 more iterations.......
Cheers,Brewzz

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:16 am

Got up this morning and mash was still at 120 deg,but fully converted.It was still quite thick,being 24 lbs in a 15 gal keg...So I took about 1/3 of it and put that into a 6 gal bucket.I then added water to both,and diluted it down to 1.080 sg.11 percent alcohol potential.It kicked in three hours....I should be able to strip it by next friday,add more sugar and keep going....I'll let y'all know how it goes.
Cheers,Brewzz

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by mississippimoon » Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:12 pm

i made a very similar sour corn mash. keep in mind this is on a very small scale b/c i am a novice and i was experimenting with recipes from scratch

1 cup brown sugar
1 cup enriched corn meal
1 1/2 liter purified water

i agree with what you said about the smell. on the second day, i gave it a whiff and it smelled like vomit, to be honest. unfortunately that scared me off and i discarded of it. however, im trying that recipe again tonight now that i know i should let it sit for 4 days instead of just 2. how did the distilled product come out btw??? what can i expect???

brewzz
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:31 am

It came out fine,but I'm not going to do a cooked mash again.Just ujsm.I ended up doing 4 iterations,and ended up with about 4 gal. of decent whiskey.
Cheers,Brewzz
P.S. Don't fear the smell!!
Cheers,Brewzz

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