Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by dougjones31 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:54 pm

I was just reading this thread and had to make one comment....

If you sour the corn and attempt to mash with a ph of @ 4.0 which is what it will typically be after souring....then there is no way you can get complete conversion. Alpha-amylase is active between 4.5 and 7.0 ph( with max activity being 5.3 to 5.7). Beta-amylase is active from @ <3.0 to 5.5 ( max activity 4.0-4.5). (Give or take a few points depending on source of info)



If you mash at ph of 4.0 or lower, I would put your efficiency at @ 40%....maybe 50% if you have the freshest of malt/enzymes and a rabbit's foot in your pocket..

Anybody got numbers to prove mash efficiency of this method??? If you can prove a good efficiency then it would go against everything I have been reading about mashing, or experienced doing almost this very same thing for 20 years.


My grandfather taught me to make corn squeezin's and he always soured the corn. Looking back at yields we got, we were @ 40% conversion. Never really thought about it (never dared to question my grandfather's techniques) until I came here and started reading. He is dead now and I can play with the recipe. If we could double the amount of alcohol with just a few tweaks, that would be nice.
Last edited by dougjones31 on Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by HookLine » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:40 pm

So you are saying that for mashing the pH should be between 4.5-5.5 (ideally approx 5.3-5.5)?
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by dougjones31 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:38 am

ideally 5.5 ph for Alpha-amylase rest at 155f degrees and 4.0-4.5 ph for Beta-amylase rest at 145 f. The compromise we are accustomed to in a 1 step mash is to make the PH @ 5.5 and let it ride. The enzymes work at this ph but the beta is limited in its ability at the higher PH, but for the sake of simplicity ...it works. This souring stage is gonna screw that all up and severely limit starch conversion because Alph is not gonna work well at ph of 4. Your Beta is gonna nibble at the ends of all the chains but not be able to break down the long branched chains , which is what the alpha does to allow the beta to get in there and finish its work.

now proteolytic enzymes work at lower ph, but that is a whole different story since we are not talking about protein rests at all. Which i assume is part of the reason souring was started....to let lactic acid break down proteins.

I cannot be the first one to notice this......? I am just trying to maximize the alcohol yield and cannot see how good conversion is possible using this technique. Please ...somebody school me if i am wrong.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by HookLine » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:48 pm

The compromise we are accustomed to in a 1 step mash is to make the PH @ 5.5 and let it ride.
Yes, I meant for single step mashing.
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by dougjones31 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:58 am

had 8lbs of cracked corn soured.....mashed it with enzymes and ph adjustments for each different enzyme. got 1.040 sg into 5 gallon final volume. Took 12 hours sitting to settle out like this. what is that 65% efficiency......hmmm! Souring probably robbed me some. :cry: Then again...had course cracked corn and boiled it for 3.5 hours and it still was not all cooked down......looks like I will grind the next batch down to grits and see what happens. :ebiggrin:

I think I will strain this and pour it into a 10 gallon batch of UJSSM in place of 5 gallons of water. And adjust the sugar down....maybe in half. Don't have time to do another double batch and boil it down to fit into my 15 gallon boiler.

sour mash.jpg

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by dougjones31 » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:33 pm

looking for sugar potential/ by weight of corn and i see most literature says 65-75% depending on the actual strain of corn...so I think my 65% is probably about the best I can hope for.

8lbs corn

got 1.40 specific gravity which is 17 oz sugar per gallon

5 gallons=5.13 lbs of sugar

5.13 divided by 8lbs =64.125% actual

If 75% yield is the max then I got 85% efficiency at the worst!


now we see how much unfermentables is in there.,.,

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by tas63426 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:55 pm

A trick I use is to sour 30lbs of corn with 10 gallons of water and 1/2 cup of lime. then heat to 200F for 2 hrs cool to 165F and amalyse rest 1 hr then cool to 155 by adding backset this lowers the PH for the gluco conversion . works fine.

YB

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Fresh Corn Cob

Post by garyro51 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:56 pm

I am a little new to brewing, but is it possible to use fresh corn in my mash, and can someone tell me how much I would need for a 5 gal batch and what would be my process in making a batch in this manner. Would like any help that I can, I am in an area with lots of fresh corn.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Dnderhead » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:14 pm

2lb. (1 kg) per 1 gal (4l) of dried should give you about 6% . fresh corn I thank would give you less as it contains water.
maybe 1/2 of that.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Water Of Life » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:48 pm

Just curious,
Not sure if it would work but is it possible to seed the ferment with say a fermented milk culture?
such as: cook the cracked corn to kill everything, then let it cool to about 35-37 degrees C and add enzymes or a tiny bit of malted barley and pitch a Yulkult or some natural yogurt.
Then after a few days you can pitch the yeast.

Do you reackon this could work?
I am planning to buy a 60L fermenter soon, which will free up the two 30L ones I using at them moment, and I will try this if anyone thinks it may work.
50L 2" pot still.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Caprimulgus » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:13 pm

The main bacteria in Yogurt, Lactobacillus Bulgaricus would not do any good, because it is a thermophile bacteria that needs 40C (104F) to reproduce.

Lactococcus lactis, used in cheesemaking and in cultured milk like buttermilk, is a mesophilic bacteria that thrives in lower temperatures. Around room temperature. If I remember correctly, ideally at 21,2C (70.52F) Thats the little guys you want! :)

Lactococcus lactis is a VERY aggressive bacteria! It only needs to be inoclulated at 1-2% to the liquid (milk or other) to take over and make it a hostile enviroment to other pathological bacteria, by eating lactose and converting it to lactic acid. Thats the main reason for using it in cheesemaking.

To extract whey containing the bacteria from buttermilk, strain fresh buttermilk in a coffee filter and collect the whey. The casein left in the filter is fresh cheese. Mix it with garlic and make a sandwitch.

To make a super charged whey, add 1-2% live buttermilk to fresh room tempered milk. 18 hours later, you'll have super charged new buttermilk to strain whey from. If youre a tech geek, test the milks PH before and 20 minutes after inocculating. If theres a drop of PH in 20 minutes, your starter was alive and have started to multiply. Let it sit in room temp for the entire 18 hours. The scent is a fresh, acidic, buttermilk(ish) scent.

You could also use the juice from live unpasteurised sour kraut. OR, if you want to start making sour kraut or other lactic acid preserved veg. You can inocculate your veg with some of the whey. (Cabbage normaly doesn't need it to ferment) It's the same bacteria. Sour gurkins is a TREAT!

If you REALLY want to spend money. Use a direct vat cheese starter.

And yes, I have a EU cert in this. Been goatfarming and cheesemaking in a past life.
Last edited by Caprimulgus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Water Of Life » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:21 pm

hmm the yogurt in my fridge at the moment says it contains
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus casei
Lactobacillus bifidus (bifidobacterium)

And Yakult contains
Lactobacillus casei Shirota

So none of those would work?
if needed the wash could be warmed.

Ill take your word for it you seem to know far more then I do. My research has consisted mostly of eating yogurt and wikipedia. :oops: :)
50L 2" pot still.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Caprimulgus » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:59 pm

There might be national differences. Main point, use a mesophilic culture.
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by dougjones31 » Fri May 20, 2011 2:32 pm

I had an interesting development happen over the past 5 days. I failed at mashing a batch of corn using enzymes. I was trying to cook too much corn in too little water. Anyway....I finally got conversion but ended up adding too much water. My SG was too low. So I let a converted batch of corn sit in my brewroom for 2 days and a night while i fiddled around and mashed another batch. I opened up the container with the converted corn in it and it was soured. Hmmmmm!

thought i had sealed it up soon enough to keep anything out, but apparently I have Lacto floating around in there pretty bad. Anyway.....My observation is that maybe the souring stage should come after the mashing....appears that the souring happens easier then.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by DFitz » Sun May 06, 2012 7:13 am

Caprimulgus wrote:The main bacteria in Yogurt, Lactobacillus Bulgaricus would not do any good, because it is a thermophile bacteria that needs 40C (104F) to reproduce.

Lactococcus lactis, used in cheesemaking and in cultured milk like buttermilk, is a mesophilic bacteria that thrives in lower temperatures. Around room temperature. If I remember correctly, ideally at 21,2C (70.52F) Thats the little guys you want! :)

Lactococcus lactis is a VERY aggressive bacteria! It only needs to be inoclulated at 1-2% to the liquid (milk or other) to take over and make it a hostile enviroment to other pathological bacteria, by eating lactose and converting it to lactic acid. Thats the main reason for using it in cheesemaking.

To extract whey containing the bacteria from buttermilk, strain fresh buttermilk in a coffee filter and collect the whey. The casein left in the filter is fresh cheese. Mix it with garlic and make a sandwitch.

To make a super charged whey, add 1-2% live buttermilk to fresh room tempered milk. 18 hours later, you'll have super charged new buttermilk to strain whey from. If youre a tech geek, test the milks PH before and 20 minutes after inocculating. If theres a drop of PH in 20 minutes, your starter was alive and have started to multiply. Let it sit in room temp for the entire 18 hours. The scent is a fresh, acidic, buttermilk(ish) scent.

You could also use the juice from live unpasteurised sour kraut. OR, if you want to start making sour kraut or other lactic acid preserved veg. You can inocculate your veg with some of the whey. (Cabbage normaly doesn't need it to ferment) It's the same bacteria. Sour gurkins is a TREAT!

If you REALLY want to spend money. Use a direct vat cheese starter.

And yes, I have a EU cert in this. Been goatfarming and cheesemaking in a past life.

Perhaps introducing Bactoferm F-RM-52 (Lactobacillus sakei and Staphylococcus carnosus) would work better for a forced lacto souring ferment. This culture is used for salami fermentation and it may be too aggressive for a mash. There are also other cultures; a more tame Bactoferm F-LC
(Lactobacillus curvatus, Staphylococcus xylosus & Pediococcus acidilactici). These cultures usually offer a PH in the mid 5s but at lower temps will only get as high as 4-4.5. This may offer the proper environment for the alpha to do its thing until the second ferment which will raise the temperature to the starter cultures optimal temp. of 80*F. at this temp the culture will raise the PH to aprox. 5.0 giving the beta the proper environment during the second fermentation.

This is just a hunch. I keep several starter cultures for sausage making. I should give this a shot with a 5 gal. mash just to see if my hunch pans out.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by WhiskeyRiver » Sun May 20, 2012 7:13 pm

Hi guys! I'm going to try my first cooked mash and was wondering if anyone knew if it would totally ruin the recipe to delete the malted barley. I've chosen to try this recipe. What does the malted barley actual do for the mash? Flavour?

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Prairiepiss » Sun May 20, 2012 7:37 pm

You need the malted barley for the enzymes to convert the starches to sugars. If you take it out. You need to supply enzymes by either using another malted grain or powdered enzymes.

Now there is a lot more you need to know before you jump into AG recipes. So i suggest lots of research on AG mashing and fermenting.
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by WhiskeyRiver » Mon May 21, 2012 6:51 am

Prairiepiss wrote:You need the malted barley for the enzymes to convert the starches to sugars. If you take it out. You need to supply enzymes by either using another malted grain or powdered enzymes.

Now there is a lot more you need to know before you jump into AG recipes. So i suggest lots of research on AG mashing and fermenting.
Gosh Dangit, Double P; this relationship is quickly turning into a love/hate thing. Love the knowledge you have & hate all this damn research you make me do. Read a few articles last night on the malted barley in an AG wash and now understand a little more. Ok, so it was a stupid question......Guess I was looking for a freebie! :D

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Prairiepiss » Mon May 21, 2012 7:00 am

How do you think I got what little knowledge I have? :mrgreen:
Just keep reading! Just keep reading! Just keep reading! :thumbup:
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by BoomTown » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:46 pm

nothing to add, just can'f finish reading this and want to be able to find it again...
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by brewzz » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:38 pm

Been doing something similar to this for about 5 times now. About every 10 months, 4 gallons end up in my spirit run. Am in the middle of a production right now. I keep improving it a little each time. Almost have it down. This time I made a starter of about 1 lb corn in about a quart of water, with a dollop of live yogurt added. After a week, I started my first mash and added it when I added the first yeast charge. Sour on the first run, and smelled good from the start.Like Peaches.
Brewzz

BTW, 3 Gal. lasts me about 9 months. Gotta do it more often.
Cheers,Brewzz

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Xnerd » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:55 pm

Im a hobby baker.

If you want a good strong local yeast and lactobacillus starter, all you have to do is make a sour dough started using unbleached wheat and rye flour.

Its so easy you almost can not do anything wrong. Just mix up a slury of 2 parts wheat, one part rye and enough water to make it like thin pancake batter.
Add some honey or even plain old sugar and cover loosely with cheese cloth or even a piece of screen. Let it sit a couple of day until it starts bubbling.
Once it has doubled in size through have of it down the drain and pitch in more flour(s) and a little water and a pinch of sugar.
If you do this for a couple of weeks you will have one hell of a lot of yeast and lacto.

The good part about doing this is that you will end up with strong yeast(s) that thrive in your local temperatures.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Aussie_Distiller1989 » Tue May 07, 2013 9:31 pm

I started this four days ago and got busy at work and
Got the dam flu and I didn't stir it at all
Now it smells really sour and had a couple small
Whit patches of mould floating on the top is
That alright.

Thanks ad

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Dnderhead » Tue May 07, 2013 9:53 pm

run it,,

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Aussie_Distiller1989 » Tue May 07, 2013 10:24 pm

Yeah that was the first ferment so ill mash it tonight
And should be all good going to take a while
As it was 40kg of corn haha and going to add 10kg
Of my own malted barley and 10 kg wheat.

Looking forward to the prosses as this is my first mash
And my brew belts should be here tomorrow to yay.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by seabass » Wed May 08, 2013 12:01 pm

Anyone made a starter just using malted barley? During the malting process, lactobacillus is added and allowed to reproduce to keep the pH down. The result is that lower kilned base malts are covered in the stuff. Simply mashing low and letting it sit should provide a great lacto starter.

I've only done a single batch so far where I allowed the mash to sour before pitching yeast. I started the mash at 145, then let it sit overnight. Next morning, it was starting to bubble from the lacto. I had about 20% malted barley and 20% malted rye in there, which I'm sure acted as a starter.

I'll do some experimenting next time I buy some DME. I'm thinking of making a starter the same way I'd make one for yeast, but adding a handfull of whole malted barley to inoculate with lacto. You could add the starter to the mash when it hits 110 and let it do it's thing.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by Xnerd » Sat May 18, 2013 2:48 am

homemade yeast starters are teaming with lacto anyway.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by seabass » Sat May 18, 2013 5:29 am

Xnerd wrote:homemade yeast starters are teaming with lacto anyway.
Only if you want it to be.

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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by dukethebeagle120 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:24 pm

starting this 2 nite.corn soured up for a week.rye also.have done this before but never read this thread.
last batch i did the beer was hellish sour.
btw that was probably the best corn shine i ever made
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch

Post by cariboux » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:30 am

I actually posted this under UJSSM, then surfing around, came back across your post where I started from with this mash. I've included a couple of interesting pics of my 1st Generation fermentation.

This last month I started my second run at Sour Corn Mash. This time I started with a 'double' fermentation process letting the corn sour for about a week before adding a sugar wash to it. I've heard about the mash starting to stink on 2nd day, but mine did not. After mashing more corn with enzymes and adding sugar wash, I tossed the yeast and it went wild! Didn't foam over, but bubbled and rocked violently. Smelled wonderful like bread rising and old sour dough starter. THEN, on 15th day, after the C02 bubbles has ceased and settling started, the huge white bubbles rose to the top of fermenter and a sort of thin white layer covered the whole surface. I stirred it with my BOS and it was the same the next morning. I then siphoned wash to glass carboys and moved to a cool place to settle. The distillate was amazing taste and smell. I put it aside and just finished second distill of it added back to Generation 2. Gen 3 is fermenting as I write this.
For second and 3rd generation, the sugar wash I added back was 100% back set.
If anyone has experienced the 'huge white bubbles' phenomenon as pictured, let me know. Thanks!
For anyone interested, I'll let you know how next generations turn out using 100% back set.

ps My fermenting room stays a constant 85 degrees and the sour mash registered 95 degrees during the peak of fermentation.

A little more info on my mash, I'm doing approx. 15 gallons. I run two 6-gal batches in my 10 gal pot with the prior Generation's distillate in my thumper and then a final 3 gallon run with all the distillate.
For the next generation, I add 5# fresh cracked corn and 1# Malted Rye to the fermenter, then 10# of sugar dissolved in each of the '6-gallon' hot backsets. Cooled and added to fermenter. So far, the yeast has loved it. For good measure, I did add a handful of oyster shell.
Attachments
The big white bubbles were interesting. The wash smelled amazing.
The big white bubbles were interesting. The wash smelled amazing.
15th day after CO2 bubbles ceased.
15th day after CO2 bubbles ceased.
!st Generation wash @ .900
!st Generation wash @ .900

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