Rye bread whiskey

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Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:03 am

Can't seem to stop experimenting and it even seems to go in a good direction. I love rye, but it is (as an AG) a pita to work with. And even as a sugar head with rye in the fermenter it either does not give off enough taste, or you have to cook it first. And if you do that, it starts gelling again and you are back in pita country. That made me think and I think I came up with an easy solution to making a sugar head rye whiskey. If you have rye bread over there, at your place. Over here we do. I posted a picture of how it looks, because we want real, non "blown up" (how is it called when bread "rises" when you bake it? "To rise"?) or risen rye bread. The stuff that is hard and black and dense. We do not want the normal bread, only browner, because apart from wheat rye is added.

Rye bread is baked already. That's the trick.

Here is what I did. I bought 2 kilo's of rye bread (4 packs of 500 grams actually). I crumbled them into small bits and then added them to boiling water. Some 5 liters. Boiled it a bit only, because the rye is off course already baked. I then added 4 kilo's of sugar to the mix and stirred that in as well. I threw everything into the fermentor, added water to get me close to 28 liters in total. Added yeast nutrients. Pumped some air into the mix and dumped in the yeast.

It is a bit colder in my fermentation room, so it took 2 weeks to finish. I then took the beer of the thrub, threw in some big ice pack coolers in order to clear things up. The thrub I threw away.

I gave it two potstill distillation runs and the rye taste that comes over is amazing. This is good even whithout any ageing!

Saved me some 5 liters of backset from the stripping run. I intend to use that to cook up a second batch. I suspect the backset will make taste even more intense.

O, what is important is that you select a rye bread that has no preservatives in it. Some have, some don't. The ones that do you don't want, because the preservatives will kill off or at least hinder your yeast.

For the ones who like rye whiskey but don't like the fuss, this may be a method that yields interesting results. Or for people who simply want to find out if they like rye at all.

Odin.

Here is a link to the picture:

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site= ... B700%3B564
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby bellybuster » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:04 pm

now this sounds like its right up my alley, if I can find the bread.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby beelah » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:13 pm

Yah we have that kind of bread here in Canada...we call it pumpernickel...there was someone back a while who posted a similar recipe...only they used the rye flat bread..Ryvita I think...a Scandinavian cracker...I will see if I can find the post on it.


Here is the link to it Odin...viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17915&hilit=Ryvita
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Millie5 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:33 pm

beelah wrote:Yah we have that kind of bread here in Canada...we call it pumpernickel...there was someone back a while who posted a similar recipe...only they used the rye flat bread..Ryvita I think...a Scandinavian cracker...I will see if I can find the post on it.


Here is the link to it Odin...viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17915&hilit=Ryvita




If I use Bread loaf or ginger bread then it would be fine.. Hope there should not be any change in recipe,.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:47 am

Not sure, Millie, since I don't know those varieties. But ... why don't you try it and let us know?

If it is grain, it might be interesting.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby bellybuster » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:13 pm

Found some whole grain pumpernickel, do you happen to remember your SG?
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:00 am

I never measure that. I usually aim for like 10%, but only measure after the strip run. Say 21 liters of beer is stripped. I collect 1/3rd. That's 7 liters. Sometimes I have to stopp before, because abv is dropping close to zero. I measure the 1/3rd. If it is 30% or a bit more, I know my math was fine.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby law-of-ohms » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:36 am

Both my parents are dutch so I know this bread.

hate the taste, but would love to try some rye bourbon.

I think we call it Pumpernickel bread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumpernickel

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby bellybuster » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:57 am

Gonna run out this morning, local grocer has pumpernickel . Almost expired for next to nothing
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:06 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumpernickel

Interesting article on "pumpernickel". With some references (maillard reaction and "how to counteract the highly active rye amylases"). And yes, it is exactly what we call "Rogge brood" (or rye bread) over here.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:27 am

10 kilos of sugar in 25 liters is ... too much? I would advice you to use half the sugar. Or add another bunch of rye bread and another 25 liters of water.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby bellybuster » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:17 am

Actually that was a mistake, it is one of the large 4 kilo bags 10 lbs-ish. I'm that age where I learned and used both metric and imperial. I quite often get mixed up,, funny thing is I seem to get that more often with more age.

Just for interest it is fermenting gang busters. All the bread is on top of the ferment, I hope it is able to add more flavour when it drops. The wort tasted like rye bread with sugar on top
I'm excited about this one
Thank you sir for the recipe
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:44 am

:thumbup:

Good to hear you got the sugar right.

Funny that your rye bread is floating on top. Mine is at the bottom. I crumble it into small bits and cook it. Maybe that makes a difference? On the other hand, on your picture it looks like you are boiling the rye bread as well ...

First taste impressions of Generation II (made with some backset from Gen I) that has been on wood for a few days: complex, spicey, with a sweet undertone. What I was looking for and more!

Let me know how this works out for you Bellybuster! We may have a winner here!

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby bellybuster » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:01 am

Odin, my bread was a more North American style pumpernickel, not the very dense European variety. The flavours are similar but I imagine mine will be allot lighter.
I'm excited about this one. I've only done a couple allbran so far so this will be my first with actual specific flavour.....I hope.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby jholmz » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:28 am

waiting patiently for this one to develop :think:
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby bellybuster » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:50 am

I will try to keep good notes for those that cannot get the European style rye bread. Really anxious to run this one, will be patient though and let it ferment and clear nicely.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:03 am

Bellybuster,

Letting it ferment completely dry is important. Not just for this recipe, but for all taste rich drinks. It is in the last parts of the fermentation that most of the esters are formed.

Jholmz,

Can you find this kinda bread where you live?

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby jholmz » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:07 am

we can get rye but not sure what kinds havnt been in the bread isle for a while and never really paid attention i will start looking though as im pretty interested in this thread.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby jholmz » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:11 am

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:15 pm

I think the Feldkamp (should be "Veldkamp" by the way) whole rye without musli is what comes closest. The stuff that looks like normal bread will for sure only have some rye in it and does not come close to the whole rye bread I use.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby jholmz » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:08 pm

are you gettin more than one generation out of yours. might be a bit before i get to this recipe gotta go back to work tommorrow been laid off for 2 months due to lack of orders but will probably be workin lot of overtime now
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:13 pm

Good for you!

Am I getting more than one generation out of it? I am not doing that right now. So I use new rye bread and new yeast every time. I do re-use some 20 to 30% backset.

But I think that you can easily go with two or three generations with this recipe without changing rye or yeast. At least two. The first one for whiskey (maximum taste) and the second one for vodka and so a little less taste wouldn't be a problem. For that vodka it might even be a good thing, since there is SO much taste in here.

Mentors, mods, big minds of HD, you all know I love to experiment. And I think this rye bread whiskey or Odin's Sugarhead Rye Bread Whiskey (because it is rye whiskey I am aiming for) is a winner. If you are after taste, this will rock your chair. If you love rye and don't want to go thru all the AG mess, this is an easy way to get you there. Any of you willing to give this a try and give me some feedback?

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Stainless » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:24 am

Hi
@ODIN, well done young man, I am gonna try this on my next ferment, might take a few weeks to get there coz bins are full of AB at the moment, I will let you know how it goes
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby dakotasnake » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:39 am

odin, is there anyneed to add nutriants to the mix or is the bread enuff? im gonna try this one.
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:30 am

There should be enough in the rye. Especially since it is baked AND cooked. What I mean is: like that they should be well available for the yeasts to feast on. But I always throw in a muti-vit. You know, the ones that dissolve into water ...

Please let me know how you guys are progressing with this recipe. And try to find the darkest, densest sorta rye bread / Pumperwhatever you can find. That's where the magic is hidden. Maybe in the very slow way this kind of bread is baked. Like 12 to 14 hours, if I understand the progress correctly!

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby bellybuster » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:34 am

Ya I did allot of reading about rye bread and what I have isn't truly what real rye bread is. The flavour is there though so we shall see
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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:36 am

Okay, I am doing some finetuning on this recipe. Didn't expect myself to be saying this ever. Have been looking to say what I am about to say on my whiskey exploits for 2 years. Here it goes: there is almost too much taste!!!

I cut generation II (with backset from generation I) with 1/3rd of red wheat UJ and 1/3rd of malted barley UJ, and the rye still wants to climb out of the glass and pinch my nose and pull out my tongue!

I am making some minor changes to make the recipe easier "to access" and easier to scale up. A bit less rye bread, a bit more sugar. For an all rye sugarhead whiskey you can actually drink instead of having to consume it with fork & knife.

You need:
- 1.5 kilo's of dark, dense rye bread;
- yeast;
- a 30 liter fermentor;
- 4.25 kilo's of sugar;
- a pan & a fire place;
- water;
- yeast nutrients (not necesairy, but doesn't hurt either).

How to do it:
- crumble the rye bread and put it in the pan;
- put water in the pan (something like 6 liters), stir, bring to a boil;
- boil the rye for five minutes;
- put the fire out, put the sugar in and stir the sugar in untill compleately dissolved;
- add the contents of the pan to your fermentor;
- add water till you reach 25 liters;
- stir oxygen in;
- put yeast (bakers yeast is fine) on top, when temps are below 90 degrees F / 30 degrees C
- stir in yeast, let the fermentation begin.

At room temp, it should ferment dry in a week. At slightly lower temps it may take up to 2 weeks. It will give you a 10% beer. You can now take that beer of the lees, let it clear and distill it.

You can now ditch the lees and clean out the fermentor. When distilling is done, collect 6 liters of hot backset and put that in the pan. Add another 1.5 kilo's of rye bread, make sure you have another 4.25 kilo's of sugar ready ... and of you are again, now starting generation II.

Contrary to UJSSM, this rye bread whiskey is very, very tasty (if you like rye) from generation I on. It doesn't need several generations to develop. Backset is primarily used in order to efficiently cook and dissolve new rye bread and sugar. And the backset will lower PH which is good for the yeast. And no more vits are needed, since a lot of nutrients can be found in the backset (cooked yeast & rye).

Do you not feel like throwing away the yeast & rye bread bed ( :wink: )? Do you want to make some rye vodka? Then just re-use that spend rye bread bed. Put 5 liters of water on top of it, so the yeast stays happy while you distill your first generation. Now take some hot backset again and use it to dissolve 5.5 kilo's of sugar. No new rye is needed! Let the backset with sugar cool and add it to the fermentor where your old rye & yeast bed is waiting. Top up to 25 liters again. You will now get a beer that is around 13% strong and has less taste. But you will have a fantastic basis for a rye vodka. Tripple distilled and filtered. Or stripped and then fractionated in your LM/VM/CM.

Go get them!

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:58 pm

So the huge amount of tastes I get over in this recipe sticked to my mind. How come this rye bread gives of more (and more complex) taste than my normal rye? Even an AG rye? And even more than an all malt AG rye?

I looked into how rye bread or pumpernickel is made and it turns out that the longer baking / cooking process triggers something called the Mailard Reaction. A non-enzymatic browning. That's what gives rye bread it's black collour. But the Mailard Reaction does more. Please read Wikipedia with me (I highlighted the most important parts):

"The Maillard reaction is a form of nonenzymatic browning. It results from a chemical reaction between an amino acid and a reducing sugar, usually requiring heat.
Vitally important in the preparation or presentation of many types of food, it is named after chemist Louis-Camille Maillard, who first described it in 1912 while attempting to reproduce biological protein synthesis.[1][2](p79)
The reactive carbonyl group of the sugar reacts with the nucleophilic amino group of the amino acid, and forms a complex mixture of poorly characterized molecules responsible for a range of odors and flavors. This process is accelerated in an alkaline environment (e.g., lye applied to darken pretzels), as the amino groups are deprotonated and, hence, have an increased nucleophilicity. The type of the amino acid determines the resulting flavor. This reaction is the basis of the flavoring industry. At high temperatures, acrylamide can be formed.
In the process, hundreds of different flavor compounds are created. These compounds, in turn, break down to form yet more new flavor compounds, and so on. Each type of food has a very distinctive set of flavor compounds that are formed during the Maillard reaction. It is these same compounds flavor scientists have used over the years to make reaction flavors."

Adding one plus one makes two. Or in this case maybe three. Rye bread is cooked/baked in such a way that the Mailard Reaction is triggered. This chemical reaction creates an abundance of tasts and flavor compounds. And that, my fellow homedistillers, is probably why this simple rye bread sugarhead whiskey has SO much taste.

For more reading, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rye_bread and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Odin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:21 pm

Thanks Tater!

I took the thinking a bit further and asked myself: "how can we apply the Maillard Reaction to other homedistiller approaches?"

Please see: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=36241

I think we can benefit from this reaction by triggering the Maillard Reaction in grains we use in an UJ or SF. The treatment (or: how to get there) is explained in the post linked above.

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Re: Rye bread whiskey

Postby Dnderhead » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:37 pm

some of the grains used in beer are processed this way,they tend to be the "caramelized" ones.
these are toasted still whet,others are toasted after drying.
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