Rye bread whiskey

Refined and tested recipes for all manner of distilled spirits.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Yes, that is an addition I was just thinking about, Dunder! And if I am not mistaken the amount of taste (or bitterness due to higher temperature baking?) is raised. "A more full-bodied beer" is created using these caramalized grains. EBC is up too.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
bellybuster
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4490
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:00 pm

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by bellybuster »

great write up.
I'm thinking that due to the bread that I used which is not the long cook style rye, I will not have near the flavour you are experiencing. I just hope I get some. Should be able to still it this weekend, will taste after a single run and decide if it needs a second still in.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Listening to you, you might get something lighter, closer to a bread like whiskey. But ... you might want to wetten some of that bread with rye and put it in the oven for a longer time. See if it browns. And if it does, you have your Maillard Reaction. Even when not a rye whiskey, it will give you a more interesting, stronger tasting result as to compared to generation I.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Dnderhead »

the pumpernickel in US mite be diferant,some use coco and /or coffee.
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Over here it is rye and more rye. In Holland we generally distinguish between two varieties. The Frisian Rye bread is made from whole and broken rye kernels. The Brabant Rye Bread is made out of rye meal. I like the Frisian Rye Bread better as a bread. More character. So that's what I used in this recipe.

For people not having easy access to this type of rye bread: it can be easily made yourself. Well, I wouldn't even advice you guys to make the bread. Just a Maillardized semi-finished product that will allow you to make this great whiskey.

Fully scalable:
- put 500 grams of broken rye in half a liter of boiling water;
- put a lid on it and let it cool overnight;
- put it in an oven tray and add some more water;
- put alu foil on top;
- put the oven at 90 degrees C / 194 degrees F and put the tray in;
- let it cook for 6 hours;
- add some extra water half way down the cooking process.

This will give you something in between a very wet, crumbly bread and a porridge. Put it in your wash to enhance taste.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
bellybuster
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4490
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:00 pm

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by bellybuster »

Was at the grocer tonight and found the Euro style rye bread...450 gram "brick" was $4.99, ouch!!

Had a sniff and a taste of my wash today, the smell is there but the wash is still sweet and that over powered the flavour. I can taste it in there though.
elektrosport
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:59 am
Location: Lalaland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

I think that you could substitute acid malt, roast rye malt, rye malt and cracked rye kernels for pumpernickel or any sourdough rye, but then the ease and immediacy of chucking a bread in the fermenter is out the window, and you're more into the (AG) specialty whiskey department I guess?

I've still got to run my second gen "Danish Sourdough Rye Whiskey" which essentailly is the same as Odin's Rye Bread Whiskey, wondering if taste is going to overwhelming like you experienced Odin? Hope not, cause I sure was excited about 1st gen. :)

Do you think you can cut back as much on the rye as you do, because you've got backset to ferment with?


Cheers,
El Sporto
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

No, it isn't the backset that helps give the abundance of flavours. It is the Maillard Reaction, Elektro. And the baking that takes place in rye bread is essential to that. So if rye bread is expensive or hard to come by, I wouldn't suggest to replace it with acid malt, rye malt, etc. I would advice to take some broken rye and make the Maillard Reaction happen yourself. Not difficult. Put the 1.5 kilo's from this recipe (only in broken rye this time, 'cause you can't find/afford rye bread) in 1.5 liters of cooking water. Let it cool slowly overnight. Put it in an oven tray. Put alufoil on top to cover. Cook in the oven for 6 hours at 90 degrees C or 194 degrees F. After three hours, add some water. Now when that is done, you will have "Maillardized" your rye just as in the dark, dense rye bread one can find in Holland, in Denmark or in Northern Germany. Use that as a base for the recipe.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
elektrosport
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:59 am
Location: Lalaland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

Ok thanks, I was just thinking about the flavour of my rye bread, which is more sour than caramel. I do think I could fake it with a grain bill.

Looking at the amount of gunk in my fermenter I'm definitely tempted to go 1.5 kgs bread next time, if it'll still get me the flavour. Anyway I'll know tomorrow, how much flavour is in the bucket. :)


Cheers,
El Sporto
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

The Maillard Reaction is something quite different from caramalization. It is a different chemical reaction. Not to be compared to each other. Rye bread isn't caramalized. It has undergone Maillard Reactions. That's what makes the rye bread such an interesting property to work with.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
elektrosport
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:59 am
Location: Lalaland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

Ah, yes.. I see what you're saying, thanks for clarifying, Odin. I'm using the two terms loosely, which of course is wrong.

What I meant is my rye tastes more sour than that rich pumpernickel flavour. The standard Danish loaf is only baked for 1 to 2 hours as opposed to the true pumpernickel which I believe sits in the oven for up to 24 h?


Cheers,
El Sporto
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Dnderhead »

if malt is roasted.....
if you roast dry. just the mallard reaction takes place.(roasted/toasted malt)
if you roast whet ,the starch starts to convert and it caramelizes the sugars. (caramel malt)

if you roast unmalted grain then no conversion can take place ,there for it would not mater if whet or dry
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

The slower the cook, the lower the temp (under water boiling temps) and in an alcalyne environment ... the bigger the reaction. The higher the temp, the more the browning will come from caramalization. Now that does not give the taste and flavor boost that the M. Reaction does.

Dutch rye bread is baked for something like 14 hours, I heared. But the 6 hours (with cooling in hot water before that) will do the trick.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
kaziel
Swill Maker
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 10:59 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by kaziel »

Any tips about distilling? I can easily buy rye bread (it's almost in every store) so I think I've give this recipe a try (was going for UJSSM but I think this is better for someone like me :) I like rye, never drink anything from/wih corn though). I was thinking of making 65L of wash. Strip 2x25L washes add 10-15L of fresh wash to 2 stripped and make final run. Can I use Saccharomyces cerevisiae instead of baker's yeast? How low in ABV can I go durin distillation? My pot still has 80cm raiser i run internal element can heat up fast and then reduce no thumper. :thumbup:
Vodka consumed wisely is harmless even in large amounts.
My all stainless 2" VM still
My all stainless 2" pot still with Dimroth condenser SS Pot Still
My malt mill - two roller - DIY
My keggle - mash/filter tun
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Kaziel, if you have this very black, dense rye bread, you will be fine! If you make 65 liters and can distill 25 liters, then I understand your approach: 2 times a striprun, giving you about 15 liters of low wines. Add freshly made beer to increase taste ... but maybe that is not needed. So much taste in there, dilution with wash is not necesairy.

Maybe approach it like this: you have three times 21 / 22 liters. Distill and collect 1/3. You will end up with 3 times 7 liters = 21, maybe 22 liters. These are your low wines. They should be around 30, maybe 32%. Now run this as is in a spirit run.

Cuts should be made by taste and smell. Some general directions? Take maybe 3% of boiler content as fores/heads fraction. That is 3% of (say) 22 liters = 0.66 liters. Next 0.25 keep seperate. Now collect hearts. Untill wet paper, wet dog smell & taste shine thru. Try to stop before that. Maybe at 50%? Maybe 45%? Not sure. Depends on the wash and on the still you are operating.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
kaziel
Swill Maker
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 10:59 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by kaziel »

Thanks a lot Odin! Today i will buy sugar and bread for first 30L batch. Got second fermenter busy with Rad's "gerber wash" so i will start with one. I will post my results after distillation. Should I add any citric acid/lemon juice to lower the Ph?
Vodka consumed wisely is harmless even in large amounts.
My all stainless 2" VM still
My all stainless 2" pot still with Dimroth condenser SS Pot Still
My malt mill - two roller - DIY
My keggle - mash/filter tun
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Not needed. Yeasties will lower the PH soon enough.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
bellybuster
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4490
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:00 pm

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by bellybuster »

well here';s the results of my attempt, took a sample today and there is absolutely no rye flavour at all. the non-Euro pumpernickel is a flop. Not all lost though, it is still a basic sugar wash.
Just for interest, I tried the standard grocery store made round loaf. It is not baked the same as real Euro style rye bread. They tend to use other ingredients for colour.

I still would like to try this recipe with the proper bread but at $4.99 for a 450gm loaf I'll wait for some expired stuff to go on sale
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Yeah, I think your bread had rye in it, but wasn't exactly what I would call a rye bread.

Don't buy the Euro stuff for 4.99 USD!

Make the MR happen yourself. I posted how to do it, didn't I? For this recipe, take 1.5 kilo's of broken rye, stirr it in 1.5 liters of boiling water. Put the lid on top and let it cool over night. Next day, put it in an oven tray, put aluminium foil over it to cover. Put it in the oven at 194 degrees F for 6 hours. Half way thru, you prolly have to add some more water.

What comes out is "Maillardized" rye and that's what you want!

Your "faillure" is very common. I just made me another batch of this recipe. Or so I thought. I took "all grain rye bread" out of the store. Upon opening, I saw I didn't take the correct variety. This "all grain" has wheat and other stuff added. It is lighter brown. I decided to crumble and cook it anyhow. Gave me a beer that's not even near as brown as the original rye bread ingredients. So I went online, looked into the cooking bill of this sorta rye bread, and it turns out it is only cooked for 2 hours. For me that means: it has been heated at high temps. The lighter browniness comes from caramalization and not from MR. This means it will not get me near to what I want. I am currently starting it up as a seperate batch for vodka.

Keep on trying, Belly! The recipe sure is worth it!

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
bellybuster
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4490
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:00 pm

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by bellybuster »

Ya, I'll try forcing MR. I'm quite up on that through my all grain brewing. Funny, all the all grain gear and don't even give a thought to an AG mash to distill.
We have a nice little German rest. here that I'll ask about expired rye, they sell all sorts of specialties. I left Germany in 1993 and still use their mustards.
elektrosport
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:59 am
Location: Lalaland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

Odin, the rye bread I've been using also has all sorts of non-rye related adjuntcs. Which explain why we experience different things. I still think it's a damn fine drink, very easy drinking. I'm curious to your Malliard Rye Whiskey and may go this route for next round, for testings.

On the subject of your "malliardazation" (great new word there) you are gelatinizing your rye before putting it in the oven. Why not, when done with the Malliard treatment, continue in the all grain spirit and just add rye or barley malt and mash it? It's so close to an all grain it's almost a sin to do a sugar head, when so much work and effort has been put into it? (I have to say this, I'm an all grain brewer)..

One could always use sugar for beefing potential alcohol, but a little malt in there never hurt anybody.. :)


Cheers,
El Sporto
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Drinking some rye bread whiskey as we speak. Or actually ... rye bread in an 1/3, 1/3 combo with red wheat and malted barley UJ. Why? Because taste was too much. Now it is fine. But if I take a sip and close my mouth, I can feel a spicy heat sticking around for a minute at least. Young, very young. If we let this age ... taste will explode again. Even in a 1/3rd solution.

On the topic of going AG with this ... why not? On my first batch, that is what I did. I put the crumbled rye bread in cooking water and cooked it for a bit. Stirring well, I could see the starches seep out into the water. I lowered temp to around 65 degrees C and added enzymes for conversion. Since the carbonhydrate factor in the rye bread was around 40% only and I expected 50% conversion efficiency, I then added some kilo's of sugar.

I think if you combine AG-ing your rye bread, some backset and sugar, you easily hit a sweet spot that is too tasty, too spicey to be drunk as is. My experience so far. This drink needs dilution with other alcohol bases, more neutral, so much taste it has.

It does not geletize. The cooking of the rye bread took care of that.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
elektrosport
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:59 am
Location: Lalaland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by elektrosport »

I'm getting thirsty now. Fornutately I've got a early watch at the still today.

Just need to feed the kid his oatmeal, drink my coffee and I'm off to rye bread whiskey land. :D


Salute!
ES
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Pfff ... and I just woke from rye bread whiskey land. Sipped me a glass or two too many. No head ache (I like tight cuts - no pun intended). But I do feel a little ... wobly?

Anyhow, the drink got better with each glass. Not sure we can contribute that to Maillard, though!

:lolno:

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
kaziel
Swill Maker
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 10:59 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by kaziel »

I'm having some trouble buying rye bread :esad: , in my village only thing I can get is light rye bread. I know i should get almost black rye bread and I know the place to get it buy they are close at Saturdays :(. I will get it Monday and start ma wash then. Few years back I was using this bread to make Kvass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvass" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) bot forgot all about it (good to be eaten as well kind off sour). Do i need full rye grain bread will the one made from rye flour is ok?
Vodka consumed wisely is harmless even in large amounts.
My all stainless 2" VM still
My all stainless 2" pot still with Dimroth condenser SS Pot Still
My malt mill - two roller - DIY
My keggle - mash/filter tun
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

I think both are okay. As long as they are really very brown. Almost black. And dense as ... wood? Well, almost. I know we have both varieties over here. Broken rye gives off more taste as a rye bread. Not sure why. Maybe it is cooked longer?

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
kaziel
Swill Maker
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 10:59 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by kaziel »

Odin wrote:Almost black. And dense as ... wood?
Yeah almost, after a couple of days you can hardly bite it :).I think I will go wit full grain it has inside darker. After harvest I will get some rye and try processing them in the way you described. My grandpa use to have few Ha of rye, now his turning 80 and he's not in farming any more :(. Here is a pics of the things I can buy
Attachments
Light rye bread made from flour
Light rye bread made from flour
Full grain rye bread
Full grain rye bread
Vodka consumed wisely is harmless even in large amounts.
My all stainless 2" VM still
My all stainless 2" pot still with Dimroth condenser SS Pot Still
My malt mill - two roller - DIY
My keggle - mash/filter tun
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Kaziel,

Here is a picture of the rye bread that is cooked/baked for 14 hours at low temps and in an alcalyne environment.

Your second picture looks better, but still very light and fluffy. It looks like a cake. And - not sure - that might mean it is actually baked at higher temps for a shorter period of time. That would mean much more caramalization took place, and much less MR. Not sure. Just giving my opinion.

Odin.
Attachments
roggebrood rye bread.jpg
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
User avatar
kaziel
Swill Maker
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 10:59 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by kaziel »

Ok, the one you posted I can buy easily. I think I have different understanding of word "bread" (I wasn't thinking slices)and I can buy the exact thing, 100% rye but sliced and packed in 500g in foil . Now i know what to get.
Vodka consumed wisely is harmless even in large amounts.
My all stainless 2" VM still
My all stainless 2" pot still with Dimroth condenser SS Pot Still
My malt mill - two roller - DIY
My keggle - mash/filter tun
User avatar
Odin
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 6844
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:20 am
Location: Three feet below sea level

Re: Rye bread whiskey

Post by Odin »

Good to hear! Mine is packed sliced and holds 500 gram as well. Not that that has any influence on taste ... Good to see the recipe & ingredients are getting clear.

Odin.
"Great art is created only through diligent and painstaking effort to perfect and polish oneself." by Buddhist filosofer Daisaku Ikeda.
Post Reply