Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Havenor » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:40 am

Bob, thanks for all your efforts. I've done my first batch, came out really good but I'm anticipating even better results now that I have the dunder from the first distillation. This actually brings me to a couple questions on the dunder. Do you use the lees at all, mix it, or none at all? Secondly, have you ever taken the dunder reduced it even further on the stove to make it more intense, or is that a bad idea? Cooks/chefs do this all the time to intensive flavors. It seems like if the idea is essence for it's flavor then the more reduced then the more intense flavor?
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Buccaneer Bob » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:33 am

Sure thing, Havenor.

Havenor wrote:Do you use the lees at all, mix it, or none at all?

I save the lees (or as I refer to it in the recipe: the "trub") for future yeast nutrients, as follows:

If possible, store the yeast trub in a resealable container – a bottle, jar, etc. – someplace warm like an attic or the trunk of a car for a few days where it can be exposed to temperatures in the 30-50° C range. Enzymes inside the yeast cells will break the yeast down, making the nutrients inside the yeast cells even more accessible to live yeast later.


Havenor wrote:Secondly, have you ever taken the dunder reduced it even further on the stove to make it more intense, or is that a bad idea? Cooks/chefs do this all the time to intensive flavors. It seems like if the idea is essence for it's flavor then the more reduced then the more intense flavor?

Well, it certainly sound like something worth exploring, huh? I guess, if you try it, let me know how it works out for you, because I would be interested in the results.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Havenor » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:43 pm

I know a reduction of anything in the cooking world intensifies flavors, and it might even change the complexity. That is essence. The idea has been nagging at me ever since I first read your recipe a couple years ago, and now that I have the dunder I'll get on it. I'm not sure if my column still will be a true gauge of accomplishment though. I'll let you know how it turns out.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Thegekko77 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:02 am

Making my first batch of BB's Rum and had a question about the yeast trub that is boiled with the dunder at the start. Since this is my first batch, I dont have any dunder yet so I just followed the optional instructions and made a slurry of yeast with 200g in a liter of water and boiled it with about 4 more L of water.
What is the purpose of the yeast at this point? Isn't it killed off in the boil?
G
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Buccaneer Bob » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:26 pm

Thegekko77 wrote:What is the purpose of the yeast at this point? Isn't it killed off in the boil?
G

It's going to give you nutrients for the live yeast that you will pitch when your wash cools down.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Thegekko77 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:40 pm

Thanks, BB for the reply. I just read that somewhere else here! Doing a bunch of reading on dunder pits now.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Davel » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:05 pm

So I've made this recipe probably 9 or 10 times now and am really enjoying the results. Production is now getting ahead of demand so having some aged spirits is looking promising. :thumbup:

From a ferment perspective, pretty much every wash has stopped working at around 1.037 to 1.035 S,G.

Is this par for the course?

I'm using "Crosby" baking grade black strap molasses, the sugar listed in the recipe and regular baker yeast.

Has the baker's yeast hit is alcohol tolerance at around 13%?

Unfortunately I have no way of knowing how much unfermentables there are in the molasses and I curious to know if anyone else has had this same experience.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby nerdybrewer » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:06 am

Davel wrote:So I've made this recipe probably 9 or 10 times now and am really enjoying the results. Production is now getting ahead of demand so having some aged spirits is looking promising. :thumbup:
...
Has the baker's yeast hit is alcohol tolerance at around 13%?


I'd say you may well be stressing out Bakers yeast at 13%.
You would be able to get a better yield (quality and quantity) by splitting the wash and adding more water.
Two 8% washes is better than one 13% wash if the volume is greater.

So lets say for example you have a 20 gallon batch at 13%.
Simple math makes it out to 2.6 gallons total potential ethanol for the batch.
If you would split that and make 2 batches of 20 gallons each at 8% your total potential ethanol yield would be 3.2 gallons.
Also that 3.2 gallons would contain less nasty things.
As the bakers yeast stresses out it produces alcohols that are not as tasty as it does when the yeast is happy.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Buccaneer Bob » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:41 pm

Davel wrote:So I've made this recipe probably 9 or 10 times now and am really enjoying the results. Production is now getting ahead of demand so having some aged spirits is looking promising. :thumbup:

From a ferment perspective, pretty much every wash has stopped working at around 1.037 to 1.035 S,G.

Is this par for the course?

I'm using "Crosby" baking grade black strap molasses, the sugar listed in the recipe and regular baker yeast.

Has the baker's yeast hit is alcohol tolerance at around 13%?

Unfortunately I have no way of knowing how much unfermentables there are in the molasses and I curious to know if anyone else has had this same experience.

Sounds pretty good to me, Davel. It's been a long time since I checked the FG at the end of a rum ferment, but if I remember correctly, that's actually a bit lower than where I come out with my feed grade molasses.

If you wanted to, I suppose you could satisfy your curiosity by putting your dunder into a bucket, tweaking the pH with some calcium carbonate (crushed "tums" or oyster shells), pitching some fresh yeast and seeing how much fermentation takes place.

But there are a lot of unfermentables in molasses -- feed grade and food grade, both -- and most of us rummies just don't agonize about it that much. If we're getting a respectable amount of good quality rum, we're not going to sweat the loss of 10 or 20 cents worth of sugar in a ferment.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Davel » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:06 am

Thanks Nerdy & BB!

Splitting the volume might be something worth trying but I'd be concerned about sacrificing flavour by thinning out the wash.

Glad to hear your finishing SG is similar BB.......attempting to re-fermenting the dunder might be worth a try. Right now my dunder pail grows some rather marshmallow size, white fungus & remains quite pleasant smelling with a ph of around 4.5

I'm very happy with the quality & happy with the quantity of the rum I have been getting. The most recent ferment, once I do the math with SSG and FSG, is calculating to come in around the 12 - 13% so with a 23l batch I'll have a good bit to age.

As I said previously thanks for sharing this great recipe BB
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby DarkUtopia » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:58 am

Hey there from austria,
I have a question about dunder. Can i just reduce it by boiling ans than freeze it for the next wash? I dont want to let it live i dont feel comfortable with it.
Thanks
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Stargazer14 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:06 am

DarkUtopia wrote:Hey there from austria,
I have a question about dunder. Can i just reduce it by boiling ans than freeze it for the next wash? I dont want to let it live i dont feel comfortable with it.
Thanks


I have both a 'pit' with funky, aging dunder and I also pour hot fresh rum backset into quart jars and put the lid on.
These go in the fridge (or not, as they are sterile and sealed) and I use those jars in both my next run or as a little flavor to finished rum.

So, yes, you can freeze it, but I find it lasts long in the fridge, or sealed in mason jars out of the fridge.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby DarkUtopia » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:59 am

perfekt thanks!
I am from Austria. We use metric system!
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Buccaneer Bob » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:51 am

Stargazer14 wrote:
DarkUtopia wrote:Hey there from austria,
I have a question about dunder. Can i just reduce it by boiling ans than freeze it for the next wash? I dont want to let it live i dont feel comfortable with it.
Thanks


I have both a 'pit' with funky, aging dunder and I also pour hot fresh rum backset into quart jars and put the lid on.
These go in the fridge (or not, as they are sterile and sealed) and I use those jars in both my next run or as a little flavor to finished rum.

So, yes, you can freeze it, but I find it lasts long in the fridge, or sealed in mason jars out of the fridge.

Cool idea, putting some dunder away in sealable jars. Yeah, if a person followed canning-type procedures, that would be a really good way to preserve some dunder in its fresh-from-the-still state. Thanks for sharing. :thumbup:
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby DarkUtopia » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:32 am

I just started today, after i tossed the yeast in it started in less than One hour to bubble, awsome! I'll keep you informed
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby DarkUtopia » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:36 am

Hey there, i have a quick question.
My wash is still bubbeling, now i am curious if i could just start again with the procedure without cleaning . Just toss the Molasse again in the fermenter (ofc the wash will be destilled) add hot fresh dunder from the still and move on?
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Pikey » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:46 am

If you're trying to re-use the yeast, wait for the dunder to cool first. If it's just laziness - probably be ok, but I'd give it a clean anyway.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby nerdybrewer » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:31 am

DarkUtopia wrote:Hey there, i have a quick question.
My wash is still bubbeling, now i am curious if i could just start again with the procedure without cleaning . Just toss the Molasse again in the fermenter (ofc the wash will be destilled) add hot fresh dunder from the still and move on?


As long as you are reasonably sanitary there isn't a problem with this.
I've been doing it that way because my own personal recipe has developed some beneficial cultures that I want to keep going.
So after my last batch I left some yeast bed in the bottom of the fermentation vessel but took out about 4 gallons of the fermented wash and held it to the side while I refilled from the boiler.
The hot wash also sanitized the vessel and made sure I had plenty of dead yeast in there as that is highly nutritional stuff for the next batch.
Then I cooled it to about 90F and poured in the 4 gallons I had in the bucket.
It was bubbling like crazy less than an hour later.
I'll do the same thing with my next batch.
When I decide I've made enough rum for a while I will put some of this fermented wash away so it will stay good until I want to start up with rum again.
Note, I also add dunder and crushed oyster shells to maintain a good PH level.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby DarkUtopia » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:44 pm

Thanks
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Buccaneer Bob » Mon May 01, 2017 4:38 am

DarkUtopia wrote:Hey there, i have a quick question.
My wash is still bubbeling, now i am curious if i could just start again with the procedure without cleaning . Just toss the Molasse again in the fermenter (ofc the wash will be destilled) add hot fresh dunder from the still and move on?

I suppose you could try it and see.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby johnnyv » Mon May 15, 2017 11:57 pm

Thank you Buccaneer Bob for such a detailed recipe!

I have done my first spirit run and I can tell it is going to be very tasty.
While waiting for my bulk feed grade molasses to arrive I made a small ferment of store bought molasses then boiled it to kill the yeast and gave it 14 days shaking in air twice a day and used as dunder.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Buccaneer Bob » Fri May 19, 2017 6:27 am

Sounds good, johnnyv. Let me know how it goes. :thumbup:
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby johnnyv » Sat May 20, 2017 3:51 pm

It went well.
Microwaved with medium toast french oak at 64% ABV got a nice color and flavor. Diluted and added the rum essence and it turned out very drinkable.

Need to use a bit smaller charges than normal in my boiler to prevent puking as the molasses wash makes a fairly stable foam.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Buccaneer Bob » Wed May 24, 2017 6:19 am

johnnyv wrote:It went well.
Microwaved with medium toast french oak at 64% ABV got a nice color and flavor. Diluted and added the rum essence and it turned out very drinkable.

Need to use a bit smaller charges than normal in my boiler to prevent puking as the molasses wash makes a fairly stable foam.

Good deal. Yeah, there are a lot of unfermentables in molasses that that give the wash a tendency to foam.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Antler24 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:55 pm

Toss in a 1/2 cup of cooking oil or butter, it'll sit on top of the wash as it boils and keep the foam down.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Jafa5 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:11 pm

What an awesome read. Never heard of dunder before and now doubly excited as I just put down a 50 litre wash of rum.
You think dunder is ok to be canned? I've a big old all-American pressure canner

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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby zapata » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:41 am

Of course you may can dunder, it's even discussed a few posts up. And I'm not posting JUST to be snarky, also posting to say hi as a fellow all american owner. I've got a 10 gallon all american, and would rather part with my car than my beloved 1941x!

If you've really never heard of dunder, then you really need to understand that there a 2 very different camps of dunder. Camp 1 uses it fresh from the still, which is how canning would preserve it. Camp 2 lets it grow whatever funk it will, or intentionally infects it with various microbes. The microbes make various acids, and later when mixed with alcohol in ferments, washes or low wines will form yummy esters. So you can't can the living kind of dunder. Well, you could let it grow some funk, then can it, preserving it's funk but killing it's micro herd.

Of course you read BB's recipe, so you know he uses live dunder like camp 2. But he seems to express a preference for relatively young dunder in the 20 dayish age range. Canning a 20 day dunder would prevent much further changes if you needed to store it longer, but again killing the microbes.
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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Jafa5 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:51 am

Thanks zapata, nice to meet a fellow canner :)
Not done much canning since moving house, need to build new vege gardens along with a very long list of other projects...
Very interesting concept with dunder and using it in the ferment, I'll definitely have a play with that but will save some fresh from the kettle. I'm quite new to this but brewed beer for 20 years and I do a similar thing for making stout, taking a litre off after the boil and leaving it on the bench to sour. Then boil to sterilize and mix with the finished stout, adds an awesome edge to the flavour but scary pouring something that rashly doesn't taste good into a stout that's already good. This is always boiled though before adding, scary to consider adding it to the ferment.
I make fermented chilli sauce and thinking the dunder aging process could be quite similar where the lactobacilus is the last one left standing and it's safe to use once the pH is down below 4.2. Takes about three months to ferment out chili sauce and is not food safe until the pH is 4.2 or below. You can ferment it longer of course and it just gets better :)

Time to finish reading Bob's notes and some more of this thread while I have no more chores!

Quick question, could you use the same principle as dunder for bourbon and whiskey? Saving some to add back into the final product?

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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Jafa5 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:56 am

Just read the recipe again and the live dunder is boiled before it goes into the ferment... please excuse my ignorance above

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Re: Buccaneer Bob's Silver, Gold, and Black Rum Recipe

Postby Jafa5 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:38 pm

So finally read the whole recipe and notes along with the whole of this thread, that's a lot of reading and now my head is full of rum magic! 50 litres of wash down yesterday, my neighbours recipe, Ralph has been making rum for a good 20 years and damn it's a fine drop. I wasn't a rum drinker until I tasted his, guess I overindulged as a kid and ruined it for myself...

I've decided to make a quick starter dunder while the mash ferments. It's winter here so it'll be a slow ferment, I don't mind the slow ferment, usually makes for a cleaner alcohol, in beers anyway. So that gives me time for a starter dunder using some molasses and a bit of muscavodo with some yeast and I'll put in some ferment from a chilli sauce or one of the ginger beer plants.
I'll keep you posted on the results from that.

Just wanted to say a very warm thank you to Bob and all the others that have contributed to this thread, it's been an awesome read, a real eye opener and man I'm excited to make even better rum! That's a great resource :)

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