Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
i made a very similar sour corn mash. keep in mind this is on a very small scale b/c i am a novice and i was experimenting with recipes from scratch
1 cup brown sugar
1 cup enriched corn meal
1 1/2 liter purified water
i agree with what you said about the smell. on the second day, i gave it a whiff and it smelled like vomit, to be honest. unfortunately that scared me off and i discarded of it. however, im trying that recipe again tonight now that i know i should let it sit for 4 days instead of just 2. how did the distilled product come out btw??? what can i expect???
1 cup brown sugar
1 cup enriched corn meal
1 1/2 liter purified water
i agree with what you said about the smell. on the second day, i gave it a whiff and it smelled like vomit, to be honest. unfortunately that scared me off and i discarded of it. however, im trying that recipe again tonight now that i know i should let it sit for 4 days instead of just 2. how did the distilled product come out btw??? what can i expect???
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
I was just reading this thread and had to make one comment....
If you sour the corn and attempt to mash with a ph of @ 4.0 which is what it will typically be after souring....then there is no way you can get complete conversion. Alpha-amylase is active between 4.5 and 7.0 ph( with max activity being 5.3 to 5.7). Beta-amylase is active from @ <3.0 to 5.5 ( max activity 4.0-4.5). (Give or take a few points depending on source of info)
If you mash at ph of 4.0 or lower, I would put your efficiency at @ 40%....maybe 50% if you have the freshest of malt/enzymes and a rabbit's foot in your pocket..
Anybody got numbers to prove mash efficiency of this method??? If you can prove a good efficiency then it would go against everything I have been reading about mashing, or experienced doing almost this very same thing for 20 years.
My grandfather taught me to make corn squeezin's and he always soured the corn. Looking back at yields we got, we were @ 40% conversion. Never really thought about it (never dared to question my grandfather's techniques) until I came here and started reading. He is dead now and I can play with the recipe. If we could double the amount of alcohol with just a few tweaks, that would be nice.
If you sour the corn and attempt to mash with a ph of @ 4.0 which is what it will typically be after souring....then there is no way you can get complete conversion. Alpha-amylase is active between 4.5 and 7.0 ph( with max activity being 5.3 to 5.7). Beta-amylase is active from @ <3.0 to 5.5 ( max activity 4.0-4.5). (Give or take a few points depending on source of info)
If you mash at ph of 4.0 or lower, I would put your efficiency at @ 40%....maybe 50% if you have the freshest of malt/enzymes and a rabbit's foot in your pocket..
Anybody got numbers to prove mash efficiency of this method??? If you can prove a good efficiency then it would go against everything I have been reading about mashing, or experienced doing almost this very same thing for 20 years.
My grandfather taught me to make corn squeezin's and he always soured the corn. Looking back at yields we got, we were @ 40% conversion. Never really thought about it (never dared to question my grandfather's techniques) until I came here and started reading. He is dead now and I can play with the recipe. If we could double the amount of alcohol with just a few tweaks, that would be nice.
Last edited by dougjones31 on Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
So you are saying that for mashing the pH should be between 4.5-5.5 (ideally approx 5.3-5.5)?
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
ideally 5.5 ph for Alpha-amylase rest at 155f degrees and 4.0-4.5 ph for Beta-amylase rest at 145 f. The compromise we are accustomed to in a 1 step mash is to make the PH @ 5.5 and let it ride. The enzymes work at this ph but the beta is limited in its ability at the higher PH, but for the sake of simplicity ...it works. This souring stage is gonna screw that all up and severely limit starch conversion because Alph is not gonna work well at ph of 4. Your Beta is gonna nibble at the ends of all the chains but not be able to break down the long branched chains , which is what the alpha does to allow the beta to get in there and finish its work.
now proteolytic enzymes work at lower ph, but that is a whole different story since we are not talking about protein rests at all. Which i assume is part of the reason souring was started....to let lactic acid break down proteins.
I cannot be the first one to notice this......? I am just trying to maximize the alcohol yield and cannot see how good conversion is possible using this technique. Please ...somebody school me if i am wrong.
now proteolytic enzymes work at lower ph, but that is a whole different story since we are not talking about protein rests at all. Which i assume is part of the reason souring was started....to let lactic acid break down proteins.
I cannot be the first one to notice this......? I am just trying to maximize the alcohol yield and cannot see how good conversion is possible using this technique. Please ...somebody school me if i am wrong.
Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
Yes, I meant for single step mashing.The compromise we are accustomed to in a 1 step mash is to make the PH @ 5.5 and let it ride.
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
had 8lbs of cracked corn soured.....mashed it with enzymes and ph adjustments for each different enzyme. got 1.040 sg into 5 gallon final volume. Took 12 hours sitting to settle out like this. what is that 65% efficiency......hmmm! Souring probably robbed me some. Then again...had course cracked corn and boiled it for 3.5 hours and it still was not all cooked down......looks like I will grind the next batch down to grits and see what happens.
I think I will strain this and pour it into a 10 gallon batch of UJSSM in place of 5 gallons of water. And adjust the sugar down....maybe in half. Don't have time to do another double batch and boil it down to fit into my 15 gallon boiler.
I think I will strain this and pour it into a 10 gallon batch of UJSSM in place of 5 gallons of water. And adjust the sugar down....maybe in half. Don't have time to do another double batch and boil it down to fit into my 15 gallon boiler.
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
looking for sugar potential/ by weight of corn and i see most literature says 65-75% depending on the actual strain of corn...so I think my 65% is probably about the best I can hope for.
8lbs corn
got 1.40 specific gravity which is 17 oz sugar per gallon
5 gallons=5.13 lbs of sugar
5.13 divided by 8lbs =64.125% actual
If 75% yield is the max then I got 85% efficiency at the worst!
now we see how much unfermentables is in there.,.,
8lbs corn
got 1.40 specific gravity which is 17 oz sugar per gallon
5 gallons=5.13 lbs of sugar
5.13 divided by 8lbs =64.125% actual
If 75% yield is the max then I got 85% efficiency at the worst!
now we see how much unfermentables is in there.,.,
Fresh Corn Cob
I am a little new to brewing, but is it possible to use fresh corn in my mash, and can someone tell me how much I would need for a 5 gal batch and what would be my process in making a batch in this manner. Would like any help that I can, I am in an area with lots of fresh corn.
Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
2lb. (1 kg) per 1 gal (4l) of dried should give you about 6% . fresh corn I thank would give you less as it contains water.
maybe 1/2 of that.
maybe 1/2 of that.
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
Just curious,
Not sure if it would work but is it possible to seed the ferment with say a fermented milk culture?
such as: cook the cracked corn to kill everything, then let it cool to about 35-37 degrees C and add enzymes or a tiny bit of malted barley and pitch a Yulkult or some natural yogurt.
Then after a few days you can pitch the yeast.
Do you reackon this could work?
I am planning to buy a 60L fermenter soon, which will free up the two 30L ones I using at them moment, and I will try this if anyone thinks it may work.
Not sure if it would work but is it possible to seed the ferment with say a fermented milk culture?
such as: cook the cracked corn to kill everything, then let it cool to about 35-37 degrees C and add enzymes or a tiny bit of malted barley and pitch a Yulkult or some natural yogurt.
Then after a few days you can pitch the yeast.
Do you reackon this could work?
I am planning to buy a 60L fermenter soon, which will free up the two 30L ones I using at them moment, and I will try this if anyone thinks it may work.
50L 2" pot still.
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
The main bacteria in Yogurt, Lactobacillus Bulgaricus would not do any good, because it is a thermophile bacteria that needs 40C (104F) to reproduce.
Lactococcus lactis, used in cheesemaking and in cultured milk like buttermilk, is a mesophilic bacteria that thrives in lower temperatures. Around room temperature. If I remember correctly, ideally at 21,2C (70.52F) Thats the little guys you want!
Lactococcus lactis is a VERY aggressive bacteria! It only needs to be inoclulated at 1-2% to the liquid (milk or other) to take over and make it a hostile enviroment to other pathological bacteria, by eating lactose and converting it to lactic acid. Thats the main reason for using it in cheesemaking.
To extract whey containing the bacteria from buttermilk, strain fresh buttermilk in a coffee filter and collect the whey. The casein left in the filter is fresh cheese. Mix it with garlic and make a sandwitch.
To make a super charged whey, add 1-2% live buttermilk to fresh room tempered milk. 18 hours later, you'll have super charged new buttermilk to strain whey from. If youre a tech geek, test the milks PH before and 20 minutes after inocculating. If theres a drop of PH in 20 minutes, your starter was alive and have started to multiply. Let it sit in room temp for the entire 18 hours. The scent is a fresh, acidic, buttermilk(ish) scent.
You could also use the juice from live unpasteurised sour kraut. OR, if you want to start making sour kraut or other lactic acid preserved veg. You can inocculate your veg with some of the whey. (Cabbage normaly doesn't need it to ferment) It's the same bacteria. Sour gurkins is a TREAT!
If you REALLY want to spend money. Use a direct vat cheese starter.
And yes, I have a EU cert in this. Been goatfarming and cheesemaking in a past life.
Lactococcus lactis, used in cheesemaking and in cultured milk like buttermilk, is a mesophilic bacteria that thrives in lower temperatures. Around room temperature. If I remember correctly, ideally at 21,2C (70.52F) Thats the little guys you want!
Lactococcus lactis is a VERY aggressive bacteria! It only needs to be inoclulated at 1-2% to the liquid (milk or other) to take over and make it a hostile enviroment to other pathological bacteria, by eating lactose and converting it to lactic acid. Thats the main reason for using it in cheesemaking.
To extract whey containing the bacteria from buttermilk, strain fresh buttermilk in a coffee filter and collect the whey. The casein left in the filter is fresh cheese. Mix it with garlic and make a sandwitch.
To make a super charged whey, add 1-2% live buttermilk to fresh room tempered milk. 18 hours later, you'll have super charged new buttermilk to strain whey from. If youre a tech geek, test the milks PH before and 20 minutes after inocculating. If theres a drop of PH in 20 minutes, your starter was alive and have started to multiply. Let it sit in room temp for the entire 18 hours. The scent is a fresh, acidic, buttermilk(ish) scent.
You could also use the juice from live unpasteurised sour kraut. OR, if you want to start making sour kraut or other lactic acid preserved veg. You can inocculate your veg with some of the whey. (Cabbage normaly doesn't need it to ferment) It's the same bacteria. Sour gurkins is a TREAT!
If you REALLY want to spend money. Use a direct vat cheese starter.
And yes, I have a EU cert in this. Been goatfarming and cheesemaking in a past life.
Last edited by Caprimulgus on Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18918
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18918
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
hmm the yogurt in my fridge at the moment says it contains
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus casei
Lactobacillus bifidus (bifidobacterium)
And Yakult contains
Lactobacillus casei Shirota
So none of those would work?
if needed the wash could be warmed.
Ill take your word for it you seem to know far more then I do. My research has consisted mostly of eating yogurt and wikipedia.
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus casei
Lactobacillus bifidus (bifidobacterium)
And Yakult contains
Lactobacillus casei Shirota
So none of those would work?
if needed the wash could be warmed.
Ill take your word for it you seem to know far more then I do. My research has consisted mostly of eating yogurt and wikipedia.
50L 2" pot still.
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Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
Caprimulgus wrote:The main bacteria in Yogurt, Lactobacillus Bulgaricus would not do any good, because it is a thermophile bacteria that needs 40C (104F) to reproduce.
Lactococcus lactis, used in cheesemaking and in cultured milk like buttermilk, is a mesophilic bacteria that thrives in lower temperatures. Around room temperature. If I remember correctly, ideally at 21,2C (70.52F) Thats the little guys you want!
Lactococcus lactis is a VERY aggressive bacteria! It only needs to be inoclulated at 1-2% to the liquid (milk or other) to take over and make it a hostile enviroment to other pathological bacteria, by eating lactose and converting it to lactic acid. Thats the main reason for using it in cheesemaking.
To extract whey containing the bacteria from buttermilk, strain fresh buttermilk in a coffee filter and collect the whey. The casein left in the filter is fresh cheese. Mix it with garlic and make a sandwitch.
To make a super charged whey, add 1-2% live buttermilk to fresh room tempered milk. 18 hours later, you'll have super charged new buttermilk to strain whey from. If youre a tech geek, test the milks PH before and 20 minutes after inocculating. If theres a drop of PH in 20 minutes, your starter was alive and have started to multiply. Let it sit in room temp for the entire 18 hours. The scent is a fresh, acidic, buttermilk(ish) scent.
You could also use the juice from live unpasteurised sour kraut. OR, if you want to start making sour kraut or other lactic acid preserved veg. You can inocculate your veg with some of the whey. (Cabbage normaly doesn't need it to ferment) It's the same bacteria. Sour gurkins is a TREAT!
If you REALLY want to spend money. Use a direct vat cheese starter.
And yes, I have a EU cert in this. Been goatfarming and cheesemaking in a past life.
Perhaps introducing Bactoferm F-RM-52 (Lactobacillus sakei and Staphylococcus carnosus) would work better for a forced lacto souring ferment. This culture is used for salami fermentation and it may be too aggressive for a mash. There are also other cultures; a more tame Bactoferm F-LC
(Lactobacillus curvatus, Staphylococcus xylosus & Pediococcus acidilactici). These cultures usually offer a PH in the mid 5s but at lower temps will only get as high as 4-4.5. This may offer the proper environment for the alpha to do its thing until the second ferment which will raise the temperature to the starter cultures optimal temp. of 80*F. at this temp the culture will raise the PH to aprox. 5.0 giving the beta the proper environment during the second fermentation.
This is just a hunch. I keep several starter cultures for sausage making. I should give this a shot with a 5 gal. mash just to see if my hunch pans out.
Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
Been doing something similar to this for about 5 times now. About every 10 months, 4 gallons end up in my spirit run. Am in the middle of a production right now. I keep improving it a little each time. Almost have it down. This time I made a starter of about 1 lb corn in about a quart of water, with a dollop of live yogurt added. After a week, I started my first mash and added it when I added the first yeast charge. Sour on the first run, and smelled good from the start.Like Peaches.
Brewzz
BTW, 3 Gal. lasts me about 9 months. Gotta do it more often.
Brewzz
BTW, 3 Gal. lasts me about 9 months. Gotta do it more often.
Cheers,Brewzz
Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
Im a hobby baker.
If you want a good strong local yeast and lactobacillus starter, all you have to do is make a sour dough started using unbleached wheat and rye flour.
Its so easy you almost can not do anything wrong. Just mix up a slury of 2 parts wheat, one part rye and enough water to make it like thin pancake batter.
Add some honey or even plain old sugar and cover loosely with cheese cloth or even a piece of screen. Let it sit a couple of day until it starts bubbling.
Once it has doubled in size through have of it down the drain and pitch in more flour(s) and a little water and a pinch of sugar.
If you do this for a couple of weeks you will have one hell of a lot of yeast and lacto.
The good part about doing this is that you will end up with strong yeast(s) that thrive in your local temperatures.
If you want a good strong local yeast and lactobacillus starter, all you have to do is make a sour dough started using unbleached wheat and rye flour.
Its so easy you almost can not do anything wrong. Just mix up a slury of 2 parts wheat, one part rye and enough water to make it like thin pancake batter.
Add some honey or even plain old sugar and cover loosely with cheese cloth or even a piece of screen. Let it sit a couple of day until it starts bubbling.
Once it has doubled in size through have of it down the drain and pitch in more flour(s) and a little water and a pinch of sugar.
If you do this for a couple of weeks you will have one hell of a lot of yeast and lacto.
The good part about doing this is that you will end up with strong yeast(s) that thrive in your local temperatures.
Re: Double Fermented Sour Corn Mash from Scratch
Anyone made a starter just using malted barley? During the malting process, lactobacillus is added and allowed to reproduce to keep the pH down. The result is that lower kilned base malts are covered in the stuff. Simply mashing low and letting it sit should provide a great lacto starter.
I've only done a single batch so far where I allowed the mash to sour before pitching yeast. I started the mash at 145, then let it sit overnight. Next morning, it was starting to bubble from the lacto. I had about 20% malted barley and 20% malted rye in there, which I'm sure acted as a starter.
I'll do some experimenting next time I buy some DME. I'm thinking of making a starter the same way I'd make one for yeast, but adding a handfull of whole malted barley to inoculate with lacto. You could add the starter to the mash when it hits 110 and let it do it's thing.
I've only done a single batch so far where I allowed the mash to sour before pitching yeast. I started the mash at 145, then let it sit overnight. Next morning, it was starting to bubble from the lacto. I had about 20% malted barley and 20% malted rye in there, which I'm sure acted as a starter.
I'll do some experimenting next time I buy some DME. I'm thinking of making a starter the same way I'd make one for yeast, but adding a handfull of whole malted barley to inoculate with lacto. You could add the starter to the mash when it hits 110 and let it do it's thing.