Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

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rad14701
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by rad14701 »

Shyrac, stop adding lemon juice (citric acid) as your water probably isn't too alkaline to start with so you're driving it acidic prematurely... The tomato paste already contributes citric acid by itself... Those slow ferments are most likely due to low pH or wash temperature...
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by ELT »

Folks,

Please accept my opinion (that means many may not agree with it) regarding this recipe as I would like to offer my experience up to anyone considering this sugar wash recipe. In a nutshell - try something else - you'll possibly thank me later.

I have been brewing beer and fermenting wine for over a decade - so I am not new to fermentation and the processes that we use. Not to say i am even CLOSE to knowing everything but I have successfully completed some complex fermentations including the very popular Westvleteren 12 clone on homebrewtalk - that one took a LOT of love. But I must say this recipe is the biggest mess and headache of any that I have encountered in this hobby. Now that I have spat out my rant here are a few observations:

--- The tomato paste curdles up to the surface like cottage cheese, clogs any pump you throw at moving this wash and it downright disgusting to look at. Just stick with DAP - it works great and doesn't have these downfalls. Someone mentioned it causes cancer - so does everything else we eat and drink these days. As for the urine - astronauts drink piss - why not us, too?

--- I tried EC-1118 and Montrachet. Both are very capable yeasts and I've had excellent results on low pH ferments such as Skeeter Pee and Apfelwein. But I'll be damned if it couldn't touch this wash starting at 1.090 and push it past 1.044 range - 6.07% ABV. Starting temp was 86F, stabilized at 82F in my garage. I'm sure some will say I ran out of nutrients - no wonder with that tomato paste crap idea.... I tried 2 batches of yeast just to ensure my first six packets weren't DOA (24 gallon wash). Stalled after a day or two each time. I even tried agitating to get more oxygen in - not the best thing after day 2 but hell I had to do something. WOW - did learn my lesson about foaming - it was a geyser that first mix - LOL. I also added ground up oyster shells (a handful as stated) to ensure the pH didn't get too low. I wasn't about to stick my $100 pH probe in this nasty crap, though.... Not sure I could get it cleaned up. Another note - my sugar was pure powdered dextrose - so long chain sugars were not my issue.

--- Normally EC-1118 ferments super clean with a nice compact yeast bed at the bottom of the fermenter even without cold crashing. Not this time - I tried cold crashing the entire wash in a chest freezer with temp controller set at 34F. It helped clear it up once I fished the curdled tomato paste off the surface so I could at least see the wash.

On the flip side I did learn that 4000 watts will overdrive a PSII High Capacity in pot still mode and give you a NICE carryover of hazy low wines..... Dialed down to about 3000 watts and it pushes a good strong steady stream that gets 12 gallons of wash up to 208 F in 3 hours including warmup and ending up with 7 quarts. Yes many may say throw away the thermometer - good for them. I prefer to have the indication in front of me so I know things are on target. Damn crazy kids and their hootin' technology these days - next thing you know we'll have phones implanted in our ears and chit!

Now if I have my head up my arse and am doing something obviously wrong please let me know. I will then eat a nice hardy Crow Dinner - including the beak and feet....

Anyway Happy Saturday! Time for a nice Gurkha and a glass of Zaya (that stuff is VERY good)!
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Scarfinger »

rad14701 wrote:Shyrac, stop adding lemon juice (citric acid) as your water probably isn't too alkaline to start with so you're driving it acidic prematurely... The tomato paste already contributes citric acid by itself... Those slow ferments are most likely due to low pH or wash temperature...
When I run BW I don't use any lemon juice. Just the tomato paste, which has citric acid in it already. I use a seed warmer mat to increase mash temp. I just checked mine, 77 room temp and 105 mash temp with heating mat on it. Without the heating mat it is running 79 degrees.

105 is at the top end so I am letting my stay at 79 F

I usually let mine go 2 weeks before distillation.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Snackson »

ELT wrote: --- The tomato paste curdles up to the surface like cottage cheese, clogs any pump you throw at moving this wash and it downright disgusting to look at. Just stick with DAP - it works great and doesn't have these downfalls. Someone mentioned it causes cancer - so does everything else we eat and drink these days. As for the urine - astronauts drink piss - why not us, too?
Like you, I have been a brewer for many years as well. I know I am only on my first batch of this but did you try mixing th tomato paste up with hot water first? I would assume so. Mine mixed in plenty fine and this thing went from 1.089 to under .998 in less than a week. No chunks at all and it tastes and smells perfectly fine. We will see when I transfer it Monday to the boiler.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by ELT »

Yes it mixed up nice and smooth with that wonderful reddish tint from the paste. I wonder if the lemon juice curdled because of the tomato paste...
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by rad14701 »

ELT, never had a problem after running dozens of Birdwatchers washes... I dissolve the tomato paste either in hot water or in my inverted sugar to eliminate the lumps... Perhaps not deviating from the original recipe every step of the way might produce better results... Bakers yeast munch right through to as high as 14% ABV easily... The recipe is about as non-brainer as it gets and my washes ferment to dry in 4 - 7 days without fail... If I don't have All Bran cereal on hand I go with Birdwatchers...
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Undies »

+1 that.

I've run BW so so many times, and every one has worked out fine, including the very first one, and even ones I've made mistakes with. The "trick" is to follow the recipe - it's there for a reason.
Birdwatchers ingredients calculator: https://birdwatchers.info/
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Shyrac »

After six days in the bucket maintained at 90, I am looking at 1.054 (down from 1.078). My pH has fallen to 3.1. The airlock slowed significantly over the last few days. Just for kicks I added two tsp of calcium carbonate before throwing the lid back in place.

Edit : So the addition of CaCO3 did wonders. Prior to this addition the airlock had slowed to cycling once every 15 seconds. The acceleration over the last 24 hours was gradual, but it is now up to cycling once every 3 seconds.

Edit 2 : The acceleration has continued. The airlock is now continuously active.
Last edited by Shyrac on Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by ELT »

Ok - i'll bite... Here is the procedure y'all referenced:

Procedure:
•Take careful notes from start to finish for future reference.
•Make sure everything is cleaned and sterile.
•Mix about 80% of the water with 80% of the sugar along with all the tomato paste, lemon juice and salts. Mix thoroughly until everything (especially the sugar) is dissolved.
•Measure the SG (specific gravity) using your hydrometer. If the SG is too low, gradually add more sugar. If the SG too high, gradually add more water. The whole time aiming for an SG of 1.060 to 1.090. Most aim for below 1.070 to reduce off flavours.
•You should now have your total volume of mixed ingredients at your ideal SG.
•Use the aquarium heater to raise the temperature of the wash to your goal temperature of between 26ºC (79ºF) and 30ºC (86ºC) - commonly 28ºC (82ºC). How you do this is up to you, a common method is to set the whole fermenter in a larger container, fill it with water, and put the aquarium heater in that.
•Carefully sprinkle the yeast over surface. Stir in if you wish (most don’t).
•Place cover loosely, to let CO2 escape, thus keeping flying nasties out. There is a lot of CO2 coming off; so there is no need to worry about oxygen coming in contact.
•Check the SG and temperature daily if you like. This is not necessary, but will let you know how it is progressing.
•After a total of 5-14 days SG should be around 0.990. If not, wait until it stops bubbling. Then take note of the SG for reference.
•Assuming everything is okay, turn off the aquarium heater and let it all cool down.
•Ideally, let it sit for at least a few days (a week or more if possible) to let the solids settle before distillation. The cooler the better (without freezing though).
•Distill as you like.


Which part did I deviate from? If you are referencing the yeast type - that doesn't matter - bakers yeast, EC-1118, they all eat sugar and piss ethanol...
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Danespirit »

rad14701 wrote:ELT, never had a problem after running dozens of Birdwatchers washes... I dissolve the tomato paste either in hot water or in my inverted sugar to eliminate the lumps... Perhaps not deviating from the original recipe every step of the way might produce better results... Bakers yeast munch right through to as high as 14% ABV easily... The recipe is about as non-brainer as it gets and my washes ferment to dry in 4 - 7 days without fail... If I don't have All Bran cereal on hand I go with Birdwatchers...
+1 Rad

i have run this recipe for 3 years by now, never had any ferment that got stuck or acted weird..it's truely a non-brainer.
My fermentation containers are 3X 10 L.
Tater mentioned shaking them daily in the original recipe...take CAUTION...this stuff ferments under violent bursts of CO2..!
I usually cap the fermenters and give them a shake once a day the first three days, with this recipe i almost blew the fermentation jug before i could loosen the cap.. :wtf:
So be aware of excessive CO2 outlet the first three days..
This recipe is gold for a refluxcolumn, if run just in a potstill..it lacks taste of course.
Tip: a rubber plug and some siliconehose going into a jar with some water, does it for a airlock..it doesn't matter how much CO2 comes out..it can handle it.
Ferments dry within a week, depending on temperatures.
I also add a crushed B-vitamin pill as yeast loves it, this might not be necessary..??

Thanks for a epic recipe Tater.. :thumbup:
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by 3FX »

Hi dude ...
recently I use this great recipes for 26 Liter wash ... after 7 days Hydrometer shows SG 1.011 ... I started with 1.09 ( initial ) ...
But I have a question about this recipe : I must shake the wash daily or not ??

All part exactly the same as recipe except yeast ... I use 40 gr baker's yeast instead of 70 gr because I run out yeast at home :mrgreen: and I think this caused the wash lately comes to 0.99 SG ...

Why this recipe uses more yeast rather than other ??
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Danespirit »

I'll try answering your questions.
It's not absolutly mandatory to give it a shake daily, but it sure gives the best result.
Tried it with and without a shake, the one that just stood there, took a few days more to ferment dry.
Don't worry about the yeast.
I use 50 g, because the packs come that way where i live, so it's handy just to throw the 50 g in.
Now if you use less yeast, it takes longer for the ferment to finish. There are simply not so many "workers" working for you..
Also tried dry yeast and as expected it took a little longer to finish, even with the "yeastbomb" method.
I can't answer why it uses more yeast than other recipes, maybe a expert would chime in on that...?
My take on it would be, to speed the fermentationtime up.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by der wo »

- The recipe needs much yeast because of lack of nutrients. Tomato paste has not everything the yeast needs for multiplying. You can read in this thread much about fertilizers and vitamines, they help a lot.
- With SG 1.09 you are at the maximum of sugar. Try next time a bit less, helps a lot too.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by 3FX »

Danespirit wrote:I'll try answering your questions.
It's not absolutly mandatory to give it a shake daily, but it sure gives the best result.
Tried it with and without a shake, the one that just stood there, took a few days more to ferment dry.
Don't worry about the yeast.
I use 50 g, because the packs come that way where i live, so it's handy just to throw the 50 g in.
Now if you use less yeast, it takes longer for the ferment to finish. There are simply not so many "workers" working for you..
Also tried dry yeast and as expected it took a little longer to finish, even with the "yeastbomb" method.
I can't answer why it uses more yeast than other recipes, maybe a expert would chime in on that...?
My take on it would be, to speed the fermentationtime up.
thanks ... I think after 7 days without shake now the best time for shaking ... :D
der wo wrote:- The recipe needs much yeast because of lack of nutrients. Tomato paste has not everything the yeast needs for multiplying. You can read in this thread much about fertilizers and vitamines, they help a lot.
- With SG 1.09 you are at the maximum of sugar. Try next time a bit less, helps a lot too.
thanks for your answer ... formerly I use vitamin B1 & zinc & inactive dry yeast tablet (dead yeast sales on drugstore ) in other wash for receiving nutrients to yeast ... in birdwatchers recipe which was the perfect method to increase yeast power ?
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by der wo »

Most important is nitrogen. You get it with yeast nutrient for wine making or with NPK-fertilizers. They have numbers, for example 10-8-6 means 10 nitrogen, 8 phosphor and 6 potassium. For the yeast the nitrogen is most important, the phosphor second important, potassium you don't need extra, because the tomato paste has enough. You don't need to follow exact amounts of each, the yeast takes out what it needs. Some here recommend, not to use fertilizers with urea (a source of nitrogen) for health reasons.
Extra B1 I think is important. Extra zinc I'm not sure. You get some of both with the the paste and the yeast.
Read a bit, I think rad wrote most of that here, and try out.
By the way, I also think shaking (without opening the bucket) is useful, particulary at the end of the fermentation.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Danespirit »

+1 on B-vitamin...yeast loves it...
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by 3FX »

der wo wrote:Most important is nitrogen. You get it with yeast nutrient for wine making or with NPK-fertilizers. They have numbers, for example 10-8-6 means 10 nitrogen, 8 phosphor and 6 potassium. For the yeast the nitrogen is most important, the phosphor second important, potassium you don't need extra, because the tomato paste has enough. You don't need to follow exact amounts of each, the yeast takes out what it needs. Some here recommend, not to use fertilizers with urea (a source of nitrogen) for health reasons.
Extra B1 I think is important. Extra zinc I'm not sure. You get some of both with the the paste and the yeast.
Read a bit, I think rad wrote most of that here, and try out.
By the way, I also think shaking (without opening the bucket) is useful, particulary at the end of the fermentation.
Unfortunately I can't access to "yeast nutrient for wine making or with NPK-fertilizers" in my country ... (long story !) so I can test vitamin B and inactive yeast or more tomato paste !
how much vitamin-B must added to wash ?? ( for example for 26 Liter total volume )
Danespirit wrote:+1 on B-vitamin...yeast loves it...
Just Vitamin B1 or all B group ?
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by der wo »

"yeast nutrient for wine making or with NPK-fertilizers"
No sorry, I mean yeast nutrient or NPK-fertilizer. Normal fertilizer for plants, I think you can get it everywhere. Try to find much nitrogen per money. For your 26l-wash I think you could take 3-4g nitrogen. So if you have fertilizer with 10% nitrogen (for example 10-8-6), use 35g of it. If you don't find with "NPK", take what you find. But better synthetic than natural (blood and other things of animals...). If it's really impossible to find any fertilizer, I would try less sugar first. Only more paste, yeast or Vit-B1 won't help much. I use pills with all of the B-vitamins, but the other Bs are not so important for the yeast. Each one has 3.3mg B1, for your 26l-wash I would use two of them. Try to find pills with much B1 per money.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by thecroweater »

Firstly I'm not a big fan of birdwatchers, I think the sugar is way to high for best results, I prefer citric acid to lemons I use less yeast and I add epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) but that said it is a tried and proven because it works . Tomato paste has pretty much everything yeast needs and how we know this is because it has been used over and over again by hundreds of people for consistent results, I am about as likely to use agricultural fertilizer for nutrient as I am to use hot chicken shit. We can get DAP here that has been made specifically for the wine and brewing industry but I myself get more than satisfactory results from tomato paste which has no shortage of nitrogen and is much much cheaper
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Danespirit »

3FX wrote:
der wo wrote:Most important is nitrogen. You get it with yeast nutrient for wine making or with NPK-fertilizers. They have numbers, for example 10-8-6 means 10 nitrogen, 8 phosphor and 6 potassium. For the yeast the nitrogen is most important, the phosphor second important, potassium you don't need extra, because the tomato paste has enough. You don't need to follow exact amounts of each, the yeast takes out what it needs. Some here recommend, not to use fertilizers with urea (a source of nitrogen) for health reasons.
Extra B1 I think is important. Extra zinc I'm not sure. You get some of both with the the paste and the yeast.
Read a bit, I think rad wrote most of that here, and try out.
By the way, I also think shaking (without opening the bucket) is useful, particulary at the end of the fermentation.
Unfortunately I can't access to "yeast nutrient for wine making or with NPK-fertilizers" in my country ... (long story !) so I can test vitamin B and inactive yeast or more tomato paste !
how much vitamin-B must added to wash ?? ( for example for 26 Liter total volume )
Danespirit wrote:+1 on B-vitamin...yeast loves it...
Just Vitamin B1 or all B group ?
I add 1 B-vitamin pill for every 10 L of wash.
Yes..it's the whole B-vitamin group...

+1 Croweater...
DAP is fine, but tomatopaste, delivers all that is needed..
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by der wo »

Yes, if 3FX would take less sugar, I think he would get easily full fermentation without adding extra nutrients.

Btw, my results were:
Original birdwatchers recipe: FG 1000 after 3 weeks
Same with added nutrients: FG 987 after 2 weeks
With more nutrients: FG 987 after 2 weeks
20% less sugar with nutrients: FG 988 after 2 weeks
The three full fermented versions had the same taste after stripping.

Yes, all fruits have nitrogen. But the yeast cannot use it in this form as easy as that of a fertilizer or DAP.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Undies »

thecroweater wrote:Firstly I'm not a big fan of birdwatchers, I think the sugar is way to high for best results.
Out of interest, what do you prefer to BW? And if you use a sugar wash, what SG do you aim for?
Birdwatchers ingredients calculator: https://birdwatchers.info/
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by thecroweater »

Undies wrote:
thecroweater wrote:Firstly I'm not a big fan of birdwatchers, I think the sugar is way to high for best results.
Out of interest, what do you prefer to BW? And if you use a sugar wash, what SG do you aim for?
Ok well this BW wash equates to 6.75 kg per 30 ltr ferment (25.83 ltrs water added) which is an SG of 1.086 and about 85g of yeast. Fully fermented should yield between 13 and 13.5% ABV . This is quite high and the stressed yeast tends to take over a week or two to ferment out.
Drop That down to say 4.5 kg and quite a few things change. one you are adding 4.5 kgs to 27.2 ltrs of water giving you an SG of 1.058. You wont need any more than 50g of yeast to get an 8.8 ABV wash, Keep the temps between 26 and 32' c and this should be fermented out in a few days with a much cleaner taste smell and tends to clear a lot more. Why spend two or three weeks to get 3 or 4% extra when you can do three consecutive ferments of a bit less for a cleaner better product :thumbup:
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Undies »

thecroweater wrote:Ok well this BW wash equates to 6.75 kg per 30 ltr ferment (25.83 ltrs water added) which is an SG of 1.086
Most people here using BW aim for 1.06 to 1.07 for that exact reason. The accepted idea of BW is that the recipe is the maximum amount of sugars that should be used. That's probably only okay if you're making fuel for your tractor. :D
Birdwatchers ingredients calculator: https://birdwatchers.info/
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by der wo »

Undies wrote: That's probably only okay if you're making fuel for your tractor. :D
No, perhaps it's not always the optimum with the original SG 1086, but it's ok. For me, I tasted no difference between fertilized 1086 and fertilized 1069. And the difference in duration of fermentation was minimal. I always give the wash long time finishing.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Full_moon »

Can someone explain what is going on. My 1st BW. I had a og of 1069, accidently added 6 gal. to a planned 5 gal ferment and no more sugar.
Day 2 of ferment I took a hydrometer reading and in my test tube there were bubbles rising, looked like 7up bubbles inside the glass tube
My hydrometer started briefly at 1045 then rose to 1070 then slowly fell down again to 1045 after a few minutes.
after stirring the ferment you could hear a fizzing sound that dissipated after awhile.
put the lid and airlock back on and about a bubble every 3-4 seconds or so as before.
I have never experienced this .
, and I attributed the less than active ferment to the extra water and less sugar.
The rise and fall of the hydrometer is new to me. ferment temp. 30-32c
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by bearriver »

Don't bugger with it. It will finish dry without your vigilant supervision.

When you use a hydrometer, you have to spin it in the liquid. Bubbles will attach to the surface of the hydrometer and give you false readings. Like the bubbles in soda pop that cling to athe walls of a glass... When you spin it, it knocks the bubbles off so you can take an accurate measurement.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Prairiegold »

I just made this mash and i accidentaly put instant yeast in there any advice
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Undies »

I've only ever used instant dried yeast. As long as you used the correct amount, there's no reason it should have a problem.
Birdwatchers ingredients calculator: https://birdwatchers.info/
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Post by Prairiegold »

How manu days for instant vs regular bakers yeast
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