Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby artooks » Sun May 21, 2017 3:40 am

Hi,

Yes but normally I use first pot still in the stripping run, then reflux in the spirit run I add the copper in reflux, which is a must, I do the same with All Bran and it works well in that I did not know that I needed copper in the stripping run. is it necessary to keep the sulphate at the stripping run.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby RedwoodHillBilly » Sun May 21, 2017 3:44 am

Are you using your CCVM capped as your pot still column? If so, it is just as easy to leave to the copper in the column for both pot still and reflux mode.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby still_stirrin » Sun May 21, 2017 3:48 am

Perhaps the nutrients are what are producing the sulfurs in this recipe. And if you've got them, it will require copper to reduce them. The All Bran recipe likely doesn't produce the sulfurs that the Birdwatchers does (hint-that's why I prefer the All Bran recipe for making neutrals). Regardless, when run through the reflux column for the spirit pass, it should clean up.

Otherwise, as NZChris would say, "don't bother tasting the strip run at all"...then you should have no worries at all.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby der wo » Sun May 21, 2017 3:55 am

still_stirrin wrote:Perhaps the nutrients are what are producing the sulfurs in this recipe. And if you've got them, it will require copper to reduce them. The All Bran recipe likely doesn't produce the sulfurs that the Birdwatchers does (hint-that's why I prefer the All Bran recipe for making neutrals).

It's the lack of nutrients what produces sulfur smell. This is why rads all bran has less sulfur smell, it has more nutes than birdwatchers. And this is why I add nutrients to every birdwatchers.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby artooks » Sun May 21, 2017 4:00 am

Thank you SS for your explanation do you make your cuts in Stripping run in BW or vice verse does either of them help specifically in this recipe, or is it just the lack of nutrients that create this smell, if so as der wo suggested I need to add yeast nutrients, Der wo do you use yeast nutrients that are sold or you make it yourself ?
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby still_stirrin » Sun May 21, 2017 4:02 am

der wo wrote:It's the lack of nutrients what produces sulfur smell. This is why rads all bran has less sulfur smell, it has more nutes than birdwatchers. And this is why I add nutrients to every birdwatchers.

Different nutrients, perhaps.

BW uses tomato paste, while the all bran uses vitamins and some fertilizer. Also, the bran flakes seem to act as a buffer to reduce the "sharp bite" often contributed when fermenting table sugar. Proper nutrients provide a good environment for the sugar reduction processes.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby still_stirrin » Sun May 21, 2017 4:09 am

artooks wrote:..do you make your cuts in Stripping run in BW...

No reason to make cuts on a strip...except possibly pulling some early foreshots, which I do.

The low wines are collected for a spirit pass through the reflux column. And sometimes, a 3rd pass through the small potstill after that. For a really clean neutral, it sometimes requires triple distillations.

But that's the advantage of having the right tools and the time and desire to make my own craft produced spirits....I can do it as I want to.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby der wo » Sun May 21, 2017 5:04 am

still_stirrin wrote:
der wo wrote:It's the lack of nutrients what produces sulfur smell. This is why rads all bran has less sulfur smell, it has more nutes than birdwatchers. And this is why I add nutrients to every birdwatchers.

Different nutrients, perhaps.

BW uses tomato paste, while the all bran uses vitamins and some fertilizer. Also, the bran flakes seem to act as a buffer to reduce the "sharp bite" often contributed when fermenting table sugar. Proper nutrients provide a good environment for the sugar reduction processes.
ss

With "nutrients" I mean something with nitrogen. Either yeast nutrients that are sold (DAP or similar) or fertilizers.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Danespirit » Sun May 21, 2017 7:19 am

still_stirrin wrote:
artooks wrote:..do you make your cuts in Stripping run in BW...

No reason to make cuts on a strip...except possibly pulling some early foreshots, which I do.

The low wines are collected for a spirit pass through the reflux column. And sometimes, a 3rd pass through the small potstill after that. For a really clean neutral, it sometimes requires triple distillations.

But that's the advantage of having the right tools and the time and desire to make my own craft produced spirits....I can do it as I want to.
ss

Excellent advice..!
I also throw the foreshots on a stripping run. The amount taken depends on how much time I have (I take them by a steady drip).
As the spirit run is more time consuming, it's a good idea to have the majority of foreshots thrown in the stripping run.

Artooks, a TPW has the tendency to have a funky smell, it should clear up during a reflux run, though.
It's the exact reason, why I would prefer an all bran over a BW, should I make a Vodka in a pot still (3X distilled).
Low wines from a BW, will taste like crap...no matter how much foreshots you draw.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby NZChris » Sun May 21, 2017 1:08 pm

This might help http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2011.tb00450.x/pdf
I knew the boiler and still head would do the best job with copper in them, so what that's I built and it gives me great results.

I did a Bokobob BW spirit run yesterday to make some high proof, but the bulk of these low wines will be spirit run through my pot still and be clean enough for most of my needs.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby artooks » Mon May 22, 2017 10:47 am

Thank you guys, but I want to ask a question, from many threads about BW this is regarded the best neutral yet from what I understand, it still needs some nutrients and if this is so, doesn't this mean that the tomato paste is not enough, so if I do this recipe next time, I will definitely add copper in the vapour path and will add yeast nutrient, today I tasted the spirit and there was no smell and no taste at first but there was a hint in the after taste, so from all your recommendations I will try these next time by the way I am only using epsom salt instead of fertiliser, is there anything else that I should take care apart from these.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Danespirit » Tue May 23, 2017 11:35 am

The tomato paste has plenty of nutrients. What you can do though, is to add a crushed B-vitamin pill (yeast loves it).
I've experimented with this ferment and cut back on the tomato paste, but added said B-vitamin pill.
It seems like the yeast is kept happy enough that way. As an experiment, I made two identical washes...scaled down from the original recipe.
One exact scaled down and one with 50 % less tomato paste in it...worked just fine and fermentation times were within the same time frame for both.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby artooks » Tue May 23, 2017 12:31 pm

Hi,

Danespirit so did you cut down the tomato paste by 50% and instead added Vitamin B right ? did you also experience the bad smell. ?
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby NZChris » Tue May 23, 2017 1:17 pm

Someone recommended B multivitamins to me, so I broke open a capsule and tasted one. It was nasty. I have never put them in a ferment of anything because I wouldn't want those flavors coming through into finished product. Yours may taste different.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Danespirit » Tue May 23, 2017 1:29 pm

artooks wrote:Hi,

Danespirit so did you cut down the tomato paste by 50% and instead added Vitamin B right ? did you also experience the bad smell. ?

+1 Chris...they smell a bit nasty, but absolutely nothing from that smell or taste (I only bit on one once..won't do it again :sick: ), comes over in the distilate.

Yes, that's correct Artooks.
Two of the books I been reading "The compleat distiller" by Michael Nixon & Michael McCaw (not a misspelling of complete, it's the actual title) and also "Alcoholic fermentation" by ARTHUR HARDEN, PH.D., D.Sc., F.R.S.. , are recommending B-vitamines for the yeast to thrive.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby hpby98 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:44 pm

Just registered to say a huge thanks for the wealth of knowledge that is here

After many years of reading I've finally got my ducks in a row and started.

First batch of birdwatchers came out perfect - started at 1.070, ended at 0.990

Did a quick stripping run with zero issues and maxed at 40%.

Just finished 3 more 12 gallon batches which went exactly the same.

after stripping I'll be rerunning it in a nixon/stone setup to get some solid neutrals to start playing with

But again - A lot of thanks for everyone's info :)

FYI, I found these to be a good size to go 1:1 into my keg...

13 Gallon Rectangle EZ Stor Can White HDPE 90 Mil – P7900-D

https://www.industrialcontainer.com/pro ... il-p7900d/
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Mr_Sheesh » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:29 pm

I'd imagine that the B vitamins would all be happily devoured by the yeast, leaving nothing to taste before distillation; I'll add that to my BW in future.

If I made a 1 liter or 1 gallon BW wash, then were to distill it, about what should my hearts run? I had that but cannot see it ATM, my computers here are disorganized lately... Thanks!
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby still_stirrin » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:58 am

Mr_Sheesh wrote:If I made a 1 liter or 1 gallon BW wash, then were to distill it, about what should my hearts run?

Let's see....according to the recipe, the target OG=1.090. So, with 100% attenuation (complete fermentation of all sugars), you'd end up with a FG=1.000, resulting in a wash with 11.8%ABV.

So, from 1 liter of wash, you could expect 11.8%ABV x 1 liter = 118ml of 100%ABV alcohol (ideal number and not really practical).

In reality you won't collect at 100%, so a more realistic collection would be an average of 50%ABV (and this depends on the type of still and how it is run), so actual collection efficiency is difficult to predict without more information and your experience level.

Now, suppose the ferment was very clean (not a lot of congeners produced), you could anticipate roughly 50% of the collection as hearts (provided you've enough experience to successfully cut/separate the hearts from the late heads and the early tails).

But that would give you 50% x 118 / 50%ABV = 118 ml of 50%ABV hearts. <--- again this is very optomistic.

Please bear in mind that many, many assumptions were made to get this (approximate) number. As you will understand (when you're more experienced), a lot of factors affect the product outcome. So, your question is somewhat a "blue sky" inquiry. But I did the best I could at teaching you "how to fish"...
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Still Life » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:16 am

Back to sugar washes for this boy a while. Let my wallet recuperate from all-grains.

Stripping my first Birdwatcher's ever, and just the strip samples well.
I can see why this is a popular choice for a neutral.
Planning to reflux this into a decent neutral spirit, and it's going to be a breeze. It's a natural for that.

Sorry I underestimated this simple wash for so long. Give it a try when you want an easy recipe with great results.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Bamaberry » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:57 am

@tater

I AM A NOOB
That being said, I've learned to TRY to read a thread all the way through on something of interest.
I am working on All Grain first. Probably a mistake but I figure it's one way to learn.
Reading through this thread, seems like everyone wants to mess with the recipe.
I understand that but JMO if you're determined not to follow a Tried & True, just shut up and go do it.

That being said, I have a question about the process, not the recipe.
Have you tried making Invert Sugar and how does that differ from your process.
For those unfamiliar with Invert, there is a youtube video at the bottom ( I know, I know)
Keeping it short and sweet, if invert is supposed to be "sweeter" than regular sugar, what would be the effect of using it in your wash?

https://youtu.be/T_i48zZDk44
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Bamaberry » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:57 am

@tater

I AM A NOOB
That being said, I've learned to TRY to read a thread all the way through on something of interest.
I am working on All Grain first. Probably a mistake but I figure it's one way to learn.
Reading through this thread, seems like everyone wants to mess with the recipe.
I understand that but JMO if you're determined not to follow a Tried & True, just shut up and go do it.

That being said, I have a question about the process, not the recipe.
Have you tried making Invert Sugar and how would that differ from your process?
For those unfamiliar with Invert, there is a youtube video at the bottom ( I know, I know)
Keeping it short and sweet, if invert is supposed to be "sweeter" than regular sugar, what would be the effect of using it in your wash?

https://youtu.be/T_i48zZDk44
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby The Baker » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:09 pm

I use my own invert sugar for sugar washes.

I have an idea it is a bit better; but it sure saves a lot of stirring to dissolve sugar in the wash.

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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Still Life » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:40 am

Bamaberry wrote:
...Have you tried making Invert Sugar and how would that differ from your process?
... if invert is supposed to be "sweeter" than regular sugar, what would be the effect of using it in your wash?


I always invert the sugar.
Figure if it makes the yeast's work easier, why not?
And as Geoff related, makes mixing a little easier.
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby The Baker » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:20 pm

And of course if you put some of the cold water in the fermenter first (safety!) then add the invert sugar fairly hot (NOT just off the heat source. Safety!! ) that is considerably less water you have to heat to get the wash temperature right.

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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Danespirit » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:38 am

+1 Still Life and The Baker

I tried with inverted sugar, too.
Other than the reasons mentioned, I can't say my ferment acted differently from a wash without inverted sugar.
There may be a slight change regarding the time span before the wash ferments dry, due to the yeast can access the sugar easier when it's inverted.
It would be hard for me to know if it holds true because I don't have a temperature controlled environment needed to observe whether or not it's the case.
All my ferments, sit at room temperature which differs along with the seasons...so during the summer months, there can be 25-27 C, whereas there would only be around 18-20 C in the winter.
I wonder if anyone has mad an experiment and noticed a difference regarding the distillation..? Here I think about the amount of foreshots and heads..
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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby The Baker » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:12 pm

It's just easier.

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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Bikes n Booze » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:16 am

Mud Mechanik wrote:Birdwatcher, I have had a lot of sucess with your recipe, but I have a question. If 4 or 5 days into the ferment I see a ph in the wash of 4.0, could I add a little baking soda to raise this without harm to the taste?
I added baking soda to an unstripped wash, and it produced ammonia in the distillate. It reacted with the copper and the foreshots were a deep blue, like windex.

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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Bikes n Booze » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:58 am

gypsymanz wrote:Hi gwgw45

A bit off topic but watch out for water supply pressure changes with the t500 as it will send the temps all over the place.

Cheers
Get an RV pressure regulator. Solved my problem.

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Re: Birdwatchers sugar wash recipe

Postby Wingpilot66 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:27 pm

Undies wrote:Hey fellow Birdwatchers... Sometimes lemons are expensive where I live, so I tried substituting citric acid. The PH was measured using both lemons and citric acid, and came up close.

My question is, are my calculations correct for substituting citric acid for lemons on the calculator that I updated: http://shuggo.com/birdwatchers/

It seems to work for me, but some confirmation would be helpful. I hope you're all enjoying the calculator. :)



YES, thank you for this calculator for the recipe. Nice!
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