Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

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zed255
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by zed255 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:46 am

Rrmuf wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:55 am
Question (bordering on heresy?) I never had this problem with my turbo yeasts: Why is that?
As I understand it, a turbo yeast product is an overindulgent package of nutrients and buffers virtually guaranteed to perform when used as prescribed. Turbos are not well regarded here because the very thing that makes them work also can lead to problems. I recently went through an exercise with a turbo user having blue distillate, managing to show him other ways.

I generally include crushed oyster shells, sold as a chicken feed supplement, as a pH buffer. Only crashes I have ever had did not include some form of calcium carbonate.
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:18 am

zed255 wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:46 am
Rrmuf wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:55 am
Question (bordering on heresy?) I never had this problem with my turbo yeasts: Why is that?
As I understand it, a turbo yeast product is an overindulgent package of nutrients and buffers virtually guaranteed to perform when used as prescribed. Turbos are not well regarded here because the very thing that makes them work also can lead to problems. I recently went through an exercise with a turbo user having blue distillate, managing to show him other ways.

I generally include crushed oyster shells, sold as a chicken feed supplement, as a pH buffer. Only crashes I have ever had did not include some form of calcium carbonate.
Thanks. I will give it another try with some calcium carbonate in the mix from the start.

I imagine Birdwatcher's SW has the same challenges?
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:21 am

Well, my third attempt just hit the same snag: I included a table spoon of calcium carbonate with PH starting at 5.4. It started @SG1.072 extremely strong and reduced to 1.008 in 4 days. When it seemed to have stalled on Day 4/5, I checked PH and it was down to 3.7. I raised it back up to 5 with baking soda, and re-pitched yeast (in previous attempts, I first raised PH, and did not see any sustained increased activity until I re-pitched.)

So, I am sure I will end up under SG 1.0 but it has not been a smooth run through in all 3 attempts.

I followed the recipe exactly with DADY yeast. Kept the fermenter @31C. This third time I added a tablespoon of calcium carbonate.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, since I am obviously doing something wrong but here are a few questions:

1. Does a PH crash kill the yeast?
2. How much calcium carbonate should I add to prevent a PH crash. This 3rd time, it seem to have *some* impact but not enough.
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:25 am

zed255 wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:46 am
Rrmuf wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:55 am
Question (bordering on heresy?) I never had this problem with my turbo yeasts: Why is that?
As I understand it, a turbo yeast product is an overindulgent package of nutrients and buffers virtually guaranteed to perform when used as prescribed. Turbos are not well regarded here because the very thing that makes them work also can lead to problems. I recently went through an exercise with a turbo user having blue distillate, managing to show him other ways.

I generally include crushed oyster shells, sold as a chicken feed supplement, as a pH buffer. Only crashes I have ever had did not include some form of calcium carbonate.
Question: How much cc do you include as part of your wash?
-- Rrmuf

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zed255
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by zed255 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:08 am

I use about a half cup of the crushed shells for chicken feed supplement hung in a screen basket. I also use my own recipe that is more like DWWG or FFV where my germ / bran remains in the wash, which I believe has been beneficial. My only difficult ferments have been 'off the grain' types.

Yeast don't like too much sodium, so baking soda is not ideal for a pH adjustment. I suggest more calcium carbonate or calcium hydroxide would be better. I also suggest checking and adjusting pH before activity stops. Another member here advocates adjusting pH, if required, needs to happen in the 12-24 hour range.
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:12 am

zed255 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:08 am
I use about a half cup of the crushed shells for chicken feed supplement hung in a screen basket. I also use my own recipe that is more like DWWG or FFV where my germ / bran remains in the wash, which I believe has been beneficial. My only difficult ferments have been 'off the grain' types.

Yeast don't like too much sodium, so baking soda is not ideal for a pH adjustment. I suggest more calcium carbonate or calcium hydroxide would be better. I also suggest checking and adjusting pH before activity stops. Another member here advocates adjusting pH, if required, needs to happen in the 12-24 hour range.
OK. Thanks!!!
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by NineInchNails » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:17 am

Rrmuf wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:12 am
zed255 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:08 am
I use about a half cup of the crushed shells for chicken feed supplement hung in a screen basket. I also use my own recipe that is more like DWWG or FFV where my germ / bran remains in the wash, which I believe has been beneficial. My only difficult ferments have been 'off the grain' types.

Yeast don't like too much sodium, so baking soda is not ideal for a pH adjustment. I suggest more calcium carbonate or calcium hydroxide would be better. I also suggest checking and adjusting pH before activity stops. Another member here advocates adjusting pH, if required, needs to happen in the 12-24 hour range.
OK. Thanks!!!
Calcium carbonate (oyster shells, limestone) dissolves only when the acidity reaches the level to do so. Calcium carbonate begins to dissolve, essentially raising the acidity to buffer/maintain ph.

Calcium hydroxide (Pickling Lime aka quick lime) on the other hand reacts immediately and raises ph quickly. It dos not 'buffer'. That's what makes it ideal for raising ph when needed.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:26 am

Perfect! That helps and completely makes sense.
Thanks!
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by HDTV » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:14 pm

I have 2 questions, and I'll do 2 posts.

My first WSW was my first non-turbo wash. Comparison is natural. Sorry to report, the results of the WSW don't taste as good as the Turbo wash.

I've done 2 turbo washes, the first had carbon in the sugar, and I added the liquid carbon to the 2nd TWash. I used the carbon filter on the first, but found that the difference wasn't important to me - it was just a bit less sweet. Very slightly sweet is how I'd describe the TWashes, the WSW unfortunately I'm at a loss for words. There was an edge of some sort, drinkable but not as drinkable as the TWash.

I wonder about the sugar I used, but it should be fine. I don't have any other ideas. Any ideas why I got this result?

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by HDTV » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:19 pm

So I finished my 2nd WSW, haven't diluted yet. I used a reflux still. The last jar smells different. It doesn't smell like the heads, but it smells different from the rest.

What do you think? Should I dilute it separate from the rest and taste it?

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by CoogeeBoy » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:22 pm

HDTV wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:19 pm
So I finished my 2nd WSW, haven't diluted yet. I used a reflux still. The last jar smells different.

What do you think? Should I dilute it separate from the rest and taste it?
Hola,
I am no expert but the first question I have is what type of still are you running? Also, have you let your spirits sit for a day or two, they can change pretty dramatically overnight.

Regardless, in my experience, there is going to be a lot of difference between your cuts at the beginning and at the end. What you do next with what you have is another question and depends on what you want to do with it IMO.

For example, if you just want to dilute it and use it as a vodka, I would say, only use the jars you like the smell and taste of.

If you are going to use it to make gin, maybe macerate junipers, that is another thing and I would think twice about using the jar you dont like.

If you are going to do a vapour infused gin then I would use the last jar as you (my logic might need correcting here but I just think that the second distillation will clean up your "dubious" jar and the vapours may be fine.

If you are going to make a macerated fruit liqueur like limoncello, I would not use your last jar, only use the good stuff.

So if you do decide to not use it, I would consider this a poor heads cut or a good tails and I would throw it back in to with your next low wines for your next distillation.

I welcome anyone else's comments as I am still learning myself!

Kind regards

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:40 pm

HDTV wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:19 pm
So I finished my 2nd WSW, haven't diluted yet. I used a reflux still. The last jar smells different. It doesn't smell like the heads, but it smells different from the rest.

What do you think? Should I dilute it separate from the rest and taste it?
It's tails. Absolute rubbish. Don't add it to anything. I toss my tails from my reflux still.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:01 am

HDTV wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:19 pm
The last jar smells different. It doesn't smell like the heads, but it smells different from the rest.
What do you think? Should I dilute it separate from the rest and taste it?
If you don't know the answer to that question I'm not surprised you booze tastes horrible.
You need to do some serious reading .....you could start with this https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 15&t=11640. Making good cuts is one of the most important skills you can develop if you want to make good booze.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by HDTV » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:41 am

CoogeeBoy wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:22 pm

I am no expert but the first question I have is what type of still are you running?
Reflux still. T500.
CoogeeBoy wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:22 pm
Also, have you let your spirits sit for a day or two, they can change pretty dramatically overnight.
I haven't, but I'll certainly try that.
CoogeeBoy wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:22 pm
I would throw it back in to with your next low wines for your next distillation.
Run it again eh? I'll probably do that next batch!

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by HDTV » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:43 am

NZChris wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:40 pm
It's tails. Absolute rubbish. Don't add it to anything. I toss my tails from my reflux still.
I've read that there are no tails (or hearts) with a reflux still. Is that not true?

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by HDTV » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:52 am

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:01 am
If you don't know the answer to that question I'm not surprised you booze tastes horrible.
You need to do some serious reading .....you could start with this https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 15&t=11640. Making good cuts is one of the most important skills you can develop if you want to make good booze.
I've read that there are no tails (or hearts) with a reflux still. Only heads. Is that not the case? Looking at your link, I see that it's for pot stills.

With every previous run I've distilled into separate jars. Previously I've detected no difference aside from the heads.

I didn't say that my booze tastes horrible. It's been good all 3 runs I've tasted. My only taste question has to do with why my Turbo runs tasted better than my first Wineo's Sugar Wash run. I haven't tasted this last batch, or even diluted it yet. That last jar is a concern, but I'll either toss it or throw it in with the next run.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:24 am

There isn't a still on earth that wont produce tails.
I'm guessing that you own a T500 and you've read the manufacturers operation handbook which states that a T500 wont produce tails. That is a myth and something they will say to make distilling seem simpler than it is , which in turn helps sales.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by HDTV » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:10 am

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:24 am
There isn't a still on earth that wont produce tails.
I'm guessing that you own a T500 and you've read the manufacturers operation handbook which states that a T500 wont produce tails. That is a myth and something they will say to make distilling seem simpler than it is , which in turn helps sales.
That's at least one of the places I read it. I'll change my thinking on that. And do more reading. And double my number of jars.

So today I really pushed it in terms of stopping when the flow drops to 5-10 drops/second. I ran it a good hour longer than on previous runs. Could it be that I was leaving most of the tails in the still on previous runs, but got lots of tails by running it longer?
Last edited by HDTV on Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:43 am

Yes that's most likely the reason.
There are other ways to run a t500 ...other than following the manufacturers instructions.
Play with water flow and watch the results, a T500 is a CM reflux still " cooling management". You don't need to be staring at the thermometers on it to make good booze......you can do the same thing by simply watching the speed that the spirit leaves the still.....a fast broken stream was about best with mine.
faster water flow = more reflux = spirit leaving still slower= cleaner spirit and in most cases highest abv.
Slower water flow = less reflux = spirit leaving still faster= less clean spirit and in most cases lower abv.
You can learn a lot while learning just by fiddling with the stills production rate and smelling or tasting what leaves the still........you wont be wasting anything as you can put the already distilled spirit back in the still and run it again if you stuff things up. Make sure its watered back to 40% abv minimum before doing so.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by dukethebeagle120 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:23 am

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:43 am
Yes that's most likely the reason.
There are other ways to run a t500 ...other than following the manufacturers instructions.
Play with water flow and watch the results, a T500 is a CM reflux still " cooling management". You don't need to be staring at the thermometers on it to make good booze......you can do the same thing by simply watching the speed that the spirit leaves the still.....a fast broken stream was about best with mine.
faster water flow = more reflux = spirit leaving still slower= cleaner spirit and in most cases highest abv.
Slower water flow = less reflux = spirit leaving still faster= less clean spirit and in most cases lower abv.
You can learn a lot while learning just by fiddling with the stills production rate and smelling or tasting what leaves the still........you wont be wasting anything as you can put the already distilled spirit back in the still and run it again if you stuff things up. Make sure its watered back to 40% abv minimum before doing so.
I've read the last few post and i am not complaining.
But the questions would have been answered with the required reading and homework.
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by HDTV » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:03 pm

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:43 am
Yes that's most likely the reason.
There are other ways to run a t500 ...other than following the manufacturers instructions.
Play with water flow and watch the results, a T500 is a CM reflux still " cooling management". You don't need to be staring at the thermometers on it to make good booze......you can do the same thing by simply watching the speed that the spirit leaves the still.....a fast broken stream was about best with mine.
faster water flow = more reflux = spirit leaving still slower= cleaner spirit and in most cases highest abv.
Slower water flow = less reflux = spirit leaving still faster= less clean spirit and in most cases lower abv.
You can learn a lot while learning just by fiddling with the stills production rate and smelling or tasting what leaves the still........you wont be wasting anything as you can put the already distilled spirit back in the still and run it again if you stuff things up. Make sure its watered back to 40% abv minimum before doing so.
I read one of your posts elsewhere about running the T500 that way.

If you run it hot enough to get a a fast broken stream you're running it a lot hotter than I am. I guess that's ok, as long as you're making good cuts.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:08 pm

This is off topic right but what does the type of still matter didnt wineo say he double pot stilled this
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by CoogeeBoy » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:23 pm

Durhommer wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:08 pm
This is off topic right but what does the type of still matter didnt wineo say he double pot stilled this
Hola,
You are right and it wasn't really relevant other than I suspected the T500 as HDTV wasn't expecting to get any tails, which is consistent with the T500 marketing blurb, which Saltbush and NZChris have pointed out is rubbish, i.e. there are always going to be tails.

I run Wineo's sugar wash in a reflux and get really great results. My only issues have been on the ferment and that I think has been ph crashes which I hope I have gotten on top of now with my new electronic ph meter and oyster shells (from Merimbula, south coast of NSW btw).

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Durhommer
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:03 pm

Oyster shells are the trick for me
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by CoogeeBoy » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:38 pm

and while we are on that topic, I thought I would put my new ones in some Star-san to clean them up.
Well, they went off! Of course, Star-san is acidic.
Diluted it down a bit then let them fizz for a few hours before rinsing.
Got my ph back up to 4.9/5.0, happy days

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Durhommer
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Durhommer » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:16 am

Well good for you im proud
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by TeeDiddy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:00 pm

Hi folks. This is my second wash only, and first attempt at wineos recipe. I basically divided wineos 6 gallon quantities in two for a 10 litre wash. Having read through a lot of the thread, it seems to have gone a lot slower than most peoples, and it doesn't seem to have gone to as low an SG as expected, it seems to be basically done at 1.004 after 14 days. Most peoples problems seem to be about pH, but my pH seems okay, at least when I eventually measured it. Did I do something wrong here, or do I just need to use more sugar and maybe more yeast next time?

Recipe:
*1.8 kg sugar
*filtered tap water to 10l
*1/2 tsp citric acid
*1/2 tsp DAP
*1/2 tsp gypsum
*pinch of epsom salts
*2 tblsp VinClasse wine yeast


SG Readings (temp adjusted)
* 08/11 - 1.069 (1.065 @35C)
* 09/11 - 1.051 (1.050 @24C)
* 10/11 - 1.045 (1.044 @24C)
* 11/11 - 1.039 (1.038 @24C)
* 12/11 - 1.034 (1.033 @24C)
* 13/11 - 1.029 (1.028 @25C)
* 14/11 - 1.024 (1.023 @25C)
* 15/11 - 1.021 (1.020 @24C)
* 16/11 - 1.018 (1.018 @22C)
* 17/11 - 1.015 (1.014 @24C)
* 18/11 - 1.014 (1.013 @24C)
* 19/11 - 1.012 (1.011 @24C)
* 20/11 - 1.010 (1.010 @22C) [measured pH ~4.5, aerated wash a bit]
* 21/11 - 1.007 (1.006 @25C)
* 22/11 - 1.006 (1.005 @24C) [aerated again]
* 23/11 - 1.005 (1.004 @24C)

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Rrmuf » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:15 am

TeeDiddy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:00 pm
Hi folks. This is my second wash only, and first attempt at wineos recipe. I basically divided wineos 6 gallon quantities in two for a 10 litre wash. Having read through a lot of the thread, it seems to have gone a lot slower than most peoples, and it doesn't seem to have gone to as low an SG as expected, it seems to be basically done at 1.004 after 14 days. Most peoples problems seem to be about pH, but my pH seems okay, at least when I eventually measured it. Did I do something wrong here, or do I just need to use more sugar and maybe more yeast next time?

Recipe:
*1.8 kg sugar
*filtered tap water to 10l
*1/2 tsp citric acid
*1/2 tsp DAP
*1/2 tsp gypsum
*pinch of epsom salts
*2 tblsp VinClasse wine yeast


SG Readings (temp adjusted)
* 08/11 - 1.069 (1.065 @35C)
* 09/11 - 1.051 (1.050 @24C)
* 10/11 - 1.045 (1.044 @24C)
* 11/11 - 1.039 (1.038 @24C)
* 12/11 - 1.034 (1.033 @24C)
* 13/11 - 1.029 (1.028 @25C)
* 14/11 - 1.024 (1.023 @25C)
* 15/11 - 1.021 (1.020 @24C)
* 16/11 - 1.018 (1.018 @22C)
* 17/11 - 1.015 (1.014 @24C)
* 18/11 - 1.014 (1.013 @24C)
* 19/11 - 1.012 (1.011 @24C)
* 20/11 - 1.010 (1.010 @22C) [measured pH ~4.5, aerated wash a bit]
* 21/11 - 1.007 (1.006 @25C)
* 22/11 - 1.006 (1.005 @24C) [aerated again]
* 23/11 - 1.005 (1.004 @24C)
There are a number of trouble shooting guides here for stalled fermentations. PH is the first one I check as well but do you think it was actually stalled? I had one wineo wash that took some interventions and 21 days!!!! It will slow down some as it nears the end. From the data above, it seems like it was still moving. Wineo is a good recipe, but it is not always fast. If you want something faster, try the teddysad ffv recipe.
-- Rrmuf

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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by Saltbush Bill » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:12 am

It shouldnt take 14 days......my first guess would be too low temperature for the yeast to be happy.

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Re: Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash

Post by TeeDiddy » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:21 am

Rrmuf wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:15 am
There are a number of trouble shooting guides here for stalled fermentations. PH is the first one I check as well but do you think it was actually stalled? I had one wineo wash that took some interventions and 21 days!!!! It will slow down some as it nears the end. From the data above, it seems like it was still moving. Wineo is a good recipe, but it is not always fast. If you want something faster, try the teddysad ffv recipe.
I definitely don't know for sure that it's stalled, due to my lack of experience, that's kind of what I was asking. The hydrometer readings seemed to be levelling out and there's zero visible bubbles on top now, so I thought it was stopped, but you are right, the readings are actually still dropping, though very slowly, it has gone down another point since yesterday.
Saltbush Bill wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:12 am
It shouldnt take 14 days......my first guess would be too low temperature for the yeast to be happy.
That was something I was not sure about, I don't think wineo specified a temperature so I figured it wasn't critical, but I did see some other sugar wash recipes calling for 30-35C. I guess I'll have to invest in some heating before the next batch and see if that goes better.

Thanks for the advice guys.

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