uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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culvercreek
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by culvercreek »

Do you guys see an problem with adding just enough water over the corn to cover it, Then you would have a water reserve to help cool and dilute the backset after you dissolve the sugar? Would cut down on the cooling time. I have been trying to get around 90F with the water before I put in back in the fermenter. Should I be adjusting that more?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Deezil »

culvercreek wrote:Do you guys see an problem with adding just enough water over the corn to cover it, Then you would have a water reserve to help cool and dilute the backset after you dissolve the sugar? Would cut down on the cooling time. I have been trying to get around 90F with the water before I put in back in the fermenter. Should I be adjusting that more?
Thats how I do it, but I go well below 90, I shoot for closer to 70ish.

After the first ferment, it gets slower and slower each time, not sure why,
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by T-Pee »

Nutrients and pH is what I look at.

tp
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Odin »

Nutrients and PH as tp says. And something else. Whenever we add backset, we add small amounts of higher boiling point alcohols. They become more and more abundant. May be part of why taste transfer is increased over generations. Tails can do that. May be part of the explanation why - after more generations - results get worse.

I now usually make like 180 liters of wash. I do like three strip runs. Three times 50 to 60 liters. The first two I take down to 8 or 9%. That's abv coming off the parot. But the third run, where I will use the backset to start up another generation of UJ ... I run until temps of the gasses come very close to the boiling point of water. Why? So I know that the stillage (backset) will hardly contain any higher bp alcs. Keeps my ferments fresh yet tasty.

I feel higher bp alcs accumulating over the generations is something that deserves some attention when it comes to explaining what consecutive generations do in this recipe ...

Odin.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Shaneshane »

i'm new to stillin but trying a version of ujssm. I started my mash with 7 lbs. of sugar 5 lbs of white corn meal 5 gals. water and one packet of bakers yeast. my mash has almost quit working but only reads 6% abv. don't know if i need to run it yet or add more sugar and yeast to mash to get alcohol up. any advice would be greatly appreciated
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by One Sock »

Shaneshane, I'll try to be gentle here, but you need to slow down and read a lot of the information for beginners available on the main page! First, you can't measure the ABV of a wash or mash, you measure the gravity. Second, cornmeal won't work with UJSSM, the point being you scoop off spent grains and replace with fresh as generations proceed. Read, read, and read some more, then try Odin's Cornflake whiskey as a great first recipe!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by T-Pee »

Also, it is considered a requirement that you go to the Welcome Center and properly introduce yourself as the "**Your first post should only go here, Introduce yourself .Tell us where your interest lay.**" on the front page of the forum instructs you to do.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chevydad83 »

Started my first batch of this today. Did two 5 gallon batches. 7 lbs corn and 10 lbs sugar. Sg was 1.084 on both. Though in some turbo yeast once everything cooled and DAMN! Never had anything start up that fast. in about 5 minutes the airlocks looked like the where boiling. Homes smells so yummy.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Tokoroa_Shiner »

chevydad83 wrote:Started my first batch of this today. Did two 5 gallon batches. 7 lbs corn and 10 lbs sugar. Sg was 1.084 on both. Though in some turbo yeast once everything cooled and DAMN! Never had anything start up that fast. in about 5 minutes the airlocks looked like the where boiling. Homes smells so yummy.
See above post ^
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by T-Pee »

Your product will taste a lot better if you leave the damned turbo out of the equation.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by rad14701 »

chevydad83 wrote:Started my first batch of this today. Did two 5 gallon batches. 7 lbs corn and 10 lbs sugar. Sg was 1.084 on both. Though in some turbo yeast once everything cooled and DAMN! Never had anything start up that fast. in about 5 minutes the airlocks looked like the where boiling. Homes smells so yummy.
Turbo Yeast should never be used with anything but sugar and water, if at all which most would advise against... The excess nutrients in the turbo yeast will cause excessive heat buildup and impart off flavors and smells when used with grains, cereals, or fruits... It's not worth the risk to attempt successive generations of UJSSM using turbo yeast so plan on starting over the right way once this wash finishes, if it doesn't crap out before fermenting to dry based on hydrometer readings...

Chalk this one up as a lesson learned and hold off proceeding until you have done ample research... If you don't know this we're left wondering what else you don't know that you really need to know before attempting practical application... You'll also find that we've had to say that a lot as well...
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chevydad83 »

Yes yes...In my excitement to post I mistakenly posted turbo yeast. I know...it is the devil. I haven't used turbos for some time now. I use Red Star distillers yeast. I have had great success with it for my rums, and fruit brandies . I don't pretend to be an expert, only a novice with OCD. Working nights has afforded me a great deal of research time. I am always looking to learn more :)
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by DeadPhan »

I recently purchased this still primarily because I am interested in making essential oils and such. I was just wondering if this still is suitable to distill this recipe? I was told not to run spirits through it with the silicone gaskets so i am going to look in PTFE or flour paste. Otherwise would this still suffice? http://www.shop.rainierdistillers.com/E ... RD2043.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by T-Pee »

DeadPhan wrote:I recently purchased this still primarily because I am interested in making essential oils and such. I was just wondering if this still is suitable to distill this recipe? I was told not to run spirits through it with the silicone gaskets so i am going to look in PTFE or flour paste. Otherwise would this still suffice? http://www.shop.rainierdistillers.com/E ... RD2043.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Answered: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 27&t=48878

Please stay on-topic.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chevydad83 »

Looking forward to running this batch very soon. After 5 days of fermentation it's gone from 1.084 to .992. Gave it a taste today and it's like a very dry white wine with a pleasant corn flavor. Moved the two batches outside today. Hoping to get the new burner for the upgraded still in a day or so. Should have then ran by Friday and the next batch bubbling away. :)
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chevydad83 »

So ran the first run of UJSSM today. Pretty impressed with the output and flavor of this low wines run. Ran it through my valved boka bob style still. 15.5 gallon keg pot, 38in long 2in column, with 14in double helix condenser and a 36in liabig condenser attached as well. From about 7 gallons of wash going in at about 11% it ran strong at 85% most of the run. once it dropped down to 70% it began falling pretty quick. Ended up with 1 1/3 gallons of low wines. Run it down to 20%. Was really running out of time before I had to go to work. Pulled 2 gallons of backsets from the pot and added that along with 10 pounds of sugar and replaced the spent corn. Really didn't expect that to take off the way it did. Took a quick shower after replacing the airlock and it was bubbling when I got out. Really looking forward to trying this batch out. :D
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by One Sock »

Remember, this is a sour mash recipe, so the first run is a little raw. Save a jar of the hearts for sippin' and pour the rest into the next run. The best flavor develops by the third gen!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chevydad83 »

Ok. Did my first run of the soured mash. About 7 gallons of wash, plus a 1.5 gallons of low wines. Ran it using my full length column. 48 inch packed 2 inch with 16in coiled condenser and 36in liebig to cool product and know down anything that might blow past the boka plates. Wow. Pulled 3/4 of a gallon at 94% that hs an amazing buttery flavor to it. I was pulling this off real slow. I was starting to run out of time before having to go to work. Adjusted the valves and started getting some really interested flavor differences in the product. ended up with just over 3 gallons of product from 95-35% in several bottles. Letting them air out for a day or 2 and will start playing with the blends. Had some really nice flavors coming out. Started out with a fruity apple taste and smell. Then moved to a sweet buttery note during the 94% stuff. After turning the heat up got a pit of some weird wet cardboard smelling stuff that got pulled out and set aside. As things progressed a delightful "woody note" showed up. Ok this is Fun :ewink: Ended up finally getting to the sour corn flavor around 65%. After 60% that went away and it started getting cardboardy again. Saved all the cardboad for the next run. About a half gallon, and everything else will be for blended. Cant wait for the next gen. :clap:
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by One Sock »

Sigh, Chevydad, have you done any of the required reading on this forum? That cardboard stuff is called Tails, and the fact you don't know that makes me believe you don't know what Foreshots (dangerous), Heads (nasty) and Hearts (good stuff) are! :shock: I won't even get into running a whiskey recipe with a packed column! :wtf: Please do some extensive reading and research, including Uncle Jesse's recipe and instructions on the first page of this thread.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chevydad83 »

Yes Sock...I have spent most of this last year reading through this an many other sources of information prior to starting this adventure. Helpful side affect to my OCD. Remembers anything outside of the all important safety issues are simply suggestions and opinions. This is a hobby. As so it give the hobbyist the ability to do things their own way. If you're enjoying your hobby awesome. I know I am enjoying mine. I have my reasons from running "this" patch the way I did. And I don't believe I'm obligated to explain them, but am willing to if asked. I will be sure and use approved vocabulary as to not lead anyone to be concerned for my well being.
Now I'm off to enjoy some tasty foreshots from my brand new galvanized, lead soldered trash can still. It's a joke. Have some fun. If your not having fun then you know your doing it wrong. :wave:
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by HDNB »

chevydad83 wrote:Ended up finally getting to the sour corn flavor around 65%. A :clap:

I'll bite, i appreciate a spirited discussion. here is a link to a short thread...in it a reply from RAD that may help you build a superior product in the future...sorry i don't know how to quote him directly between threads...(i'm just learning forum operation, rules, etiquette etc)
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=48998

to my inexperienced eye there are some things that stand out in your messages that could be construed as mistakes ...like using a bourbon"ish" recipe like UJSSM in a packed reflux still running almost to azeotrope (you did say 94%) you would have a few stray molecules of flavour there, but likely the buttery taste is just ethanol. obviously you have built a highly efficient still.
whiskey like this sugar head is commonly run in a pot still, to get the corn flavour you are describing at 65%... this would be where MY pot still would be running at it's hi range optimal output on a stripping run. (i say MY still because the washes, the still and stiller will all yield different results) the heavy corn flavour is where i'm trying to get to.
even on a spirit run, i would not want to go beyond the "official bourbon rules" of whisky not to be distilled above 80%, it just wipes out the taste i'm going for.

so your experiments may be construed as a mistake, and corrections come not only to help you, but to help warn a new noob that maybe just jumps into the thread and reads your stuff and thinks it's the right way to go... if they have not done the requisite reading they would not know yours was the result of an experiment...
of course this is all imho, jus tryin' to help. to quote (probably rad again) read, read, read, you will learn things you don't even know you don't know yet(or something like that)
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chevydad83 »

I completely agree that running the total packed column length that I did so not at all optimum for such a wash. However, my reason for doing so what simply to see what would happen. I have a buddy who has been distilling along with me for a few years now who has 12 gallons of a rum wash that he needs to run, but on fortunately his still had an unfortunate accident. He prefers to do his runs in single runs and at the higher proofs then I do. So why the hell not. Lets pack all the columns and see what happens. Turns out it will do the job. I purposely designed my set up to be a versatile as I can. I enjoy the possibilities. I was surprised at the flavors that did come out from this wash at that level of abv. Not somethings Ive noticed with other, sugar or fruit washed. So in the end. I ended up with a gallon of hearts and some tails that I will be blending together for a first try at a soured corn wash, and got to play with my new toy. Im happy as a clam. The next generation is bubbling away nicely. Plans for this next run will be different. Have to experiment. I most currently do not pretend to be an "expert" only a hobbyist enjoying his hobby. I can only impart my own experiences.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by HDNB »

cool that you got such great results. i'm on gen9 and what i've learned is i like the single foot whiskey better than double distilled. on my rig the stuff coming off at 53-57% is the keepers usually.

i want to build a kick ass slant plate that will get me up to neutral like yours...on my UJ i'm only cutting a few jars out of the middle and the feints jar has turned into a couple of 5 gal. carboys that need further work! a nice sweet vodka and some fruit infusions would be a welcome addition to the collection and make some room for gen 10 feints.... and yes, i read the part that says most people toss it all around gen 7, but mine keeps getting better so figured, why buy more yeast??

...thats my experiment to see how far i can go before something upsets the apple cart.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Scribbler »

Nice posts hdnb. Can you describe the difference between single-run flavor and strip&spirit-run flavor? Just stronger? I curious to see how many generations you can get from your UJ!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chevydad83 »

Im looking forward to this next generation run on my boka with the short column. On the first unsoured run it started off around 85% with that setup. It has only 16 inches of column under the take off plate. With the valves for reflux and take-off it works like a tunable potstill at that size. On this last run with the full 48inches of column, the valved setup was about to alter the abv by almost 20% without any adjustment to the heat input. Very interested in the flavor differences.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by One Sock »

Wasn't trying to say you shouldn't have fun with this hobby, Chevydad, but your posts raised a lot of red flags. I think everyone should be precise and careful when they describe thier process, because many people only look at the last couple of pages of these threads. Say that this is a vodka experiment, say how much you throw out for fores, at what ABV you collect for blending, etc. Terminology is important in distilling, brewing, cooking... everything that requires following a safe and sucessful process! I still feel your experience doesn't match your cockiness, but you'll obviously do whatever you want and i wish you luck!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by HDNB »

Scribbler wrote:Nice posts hdnb. Can you describe the difference between single-run flavor and strip&spirit-run flavor? Just stronger? I curious to see how many generations you can get from your UJ!
thx...just tryin to help out with my limited experiences....so...i was blathering on another thread...

single has a nice " corn sandwich" flavour to me, it's got some grain on the outside, some butter to smooth it out and help it slide down and a robust corn finish...i find it actually satisfies the belly with a full feeling. the alcohol, while smoother than store bought is less refined i believe most people would call this "stronger"

On a trip and a half the flavour gets more refined and whisky-like and loses the "fullness" feeling. more precise and complex flavor like a 100$ bottle from the store...except smoother alcohol and no bite: most people mistake it for "weaker" but with the same ABV as above, it's a quality thing. i think that's why the flavour has more precision and each note if more noticeable; because the alcohol factor is less noticeable. you get a much bigger cut of hearts too...

double distilled : see cut and paste from other thread below...
After the double distilled sat around for a week or so, i cut and blended that 3 gallon carboy and left it sit for a month to give it a taste. i was disappointed insofar as the rich corn flavour was all but gone. the result was still tasty and very smooth. but i like the corn taste.

then :idea: i had some fresh single foot UJ fresh off the still that was terrific. i aired it out and mixed in the best 2 L of smooth tasty hearts into this carboy. the result was awful, it tasted like crap. i thought the whole thing was shot... about 12 L double distilled @ 80%... almost cried.

left it sit around going on 3 weeks now, and it's coming back together. the flavours are mating up and smoothing out. 3 weeks ago it was awful. two weeks ago left a bitter taste in the throat and on the side of tongue. last week still a bit bitter on the sides of tongue but not in throat. today i poured some out of the carboy and diluted to 38% put it on some ice and let it relax for 5 minutes. it's freakin' awesome! bitter out, sweet in, smooth with a number of flavour notes.
then I stirred it with a cinnamon stick...yum!


so in summary, for my palette the 1.5x distilled is my favourite. but the longer the double sits the better it gets (but it too is blended now) some more experienced guys would have to weigh in on aged stock, my oldest is only months, not years old. that is no to say there is anything wrong with single, cut from the middle...they all get better with age and i find i like them resting on some wood...
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chevydad83
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chevydad83 »

Sock...If anything I've said had come out as "cocky" it couldn't be further from the truth. My issue is the overwhelming responds that this forum seem to have to anything that is writing outside of the "gospel of how to" is met not with questions as to why something was done a particular way, but with a "you obviously don't know what your doing" attitude. In a place meant for sure our ideas and experiences I see zero usefulness for that attitude. We are all here to learn. Or at least that's my assumption.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Scribbler »

Hdnb: I'm not too familiar with this 1.5 distillation technique. Do I have this right: you do several stripping runs and then a spirit run. Then you do one more run but instead of stripping, you take the hearts and put them in with the results from the spirit run?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by HDNB »

stripping run added to a fermented wash. then distilled = 1.5 (then do cuts)

i guess you could do a spirit run added to a fermented wash, but that would be like 2 and half trips through. probably pretty good though i'd wager!



"Then you do one more run but instead of stripping, you take the hearts and put them in with the results from the spirit run?" this would be a blend, like i described above...poor initial result on my experiment, but getting better with time.
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