How I do a cooked rye mash

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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby rossi46 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:16 pm

The stainer is called a false bottom, it lets the grain bed settle and does not allow the gain to come out of the spigot and into the fermentation vessel.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby NC_redcock » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:19 am

rossi46 wrote:The stainer is called a false bottom, it lets the grain bed settle and does not allow the gain to come out of the spigot and into the fermentation vessel.


Thanks rossi46, I don't have a spigot in mine BOP, I guess it didn't occur to me that this would be the purpose, I thought it might have something to do with the cooking recipe, (i.e. grains sticking real bad, etc.)
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby machineman52 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:36 pm

Thanks Uncle Jesse for these mash recipes..... Just finished my first prototype of a small pot still.... I chose the pot because I wanted to try to make products exactly like what you have described here..... Drinks that are only flavored by what you start with... Not what you do with it after.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby CRACKERCREEK » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:30 am

Hey UJ
You don't sparge the grains? I have heard others not sparking also. Why shouldn't you sparge? Will it not give off more sugars and a broader flavor profile?
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Whiskygirl » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:50 pm

I love the giant pot you use to cook your rye mash. Where can I get one?
Does it come with the screen?
Thanks!
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby FloridaShine » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:07 pm

Uncle Jesse,
Love what your doing, I fell in love with Rye Whiskey, Templeton Rye 95%!
So I wanted to make some rye whiskey, going to use Malted rye, milled and some malted barley.
Could I do 19 lbs, Rye and 1 lb barley.?
Also wanted to ask where you purchased the 100 Liter tank with screen?
Thanks, Dennis!
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby FloridaShine » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:00 pm

I think Uncle Jesse does not exist!
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Old Anarchist » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:00 pm

nah. he exists. probably just busy. love his tutorials.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby scuba stiller » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:24 am

FloridaShine wrote:Uncle Jesse,
Love what your doing, ... Also wanted to ask where you purchased the 100 Liter tank with screen?
Thanks, Dennis!

http://www.stainlessstockpots.com/ps/30/25-gallon-stock-pot.html
Google is our friend. The BOP's at the above location don't have thick bottoms nor spigots.
I lust for http://www.morebeer.com/products/26-gallon-stainless-mash-tun.html
Sometimes the answers are right there, just grab them.

Edit: 2/17/15 I will post my Rye run, ever how it turns out; this is a great old thread I've learned lots from. Hopefully my follow up will include info for getting the viscous Rye renderings to work for us.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Alchemist » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:27 am

CRACKERCREEK wrote:Hey UJ
You don't sparge the grains? I have heard others not sparking also. Why shouldn't you sparge? Will it not give off more sugars and a broader flavor profile?


I think this falls into a 'to each his own'. True, the majority do not sparge. I'm too many years a AG brewer not to sparge. So what if I have an extra couple gallons of water. Both my fermentor and still are large enough to accommodate it. I like the extra recovery. What can I say? I'm a frugal bastard.

I'm looking at my first rye mash. Again, (like corn) all my homebrew store has is flaked rye, so I think a mix of flaked rye and rye malt.....although 100% rye malt is tempting. Any opinions on that subject?
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Smokee » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:17 pm

I've been wanting to do a rye liquor so I tried this. I'd like share some thoughts from a relatively new distiller.

First up - this is a pain without a BOP with a false bottom. I used 15lbs of malted rye from the local brew store to do 5 gallons of mash, they milled it for me. There's a lot of grain to take up space so one 6.5 gallon bucket isn't enough to mash with so I split it up between two buckets - If this turns out well I'll invest in a good 10 gallon pot of some sort with a false bottom and spigot. The process was straight-forward from what UJ posted at the beginning of this thread. I took the water up to 170*F and added the grain then let it sit for 2 hours as I didn't have iodine. After it cooled I pitched the yeast and within a few hours it was percolating like I've never seen - it literally blew all the water out of my airlock the first 12 hours. The one bucket was done in about 3 days whereas the other continued to bubble, albeit slow, for another 2-3 days. The main issue is all the grain that's both submerged and floating, this is where the "pain" is involved. I used a straining utensil that came with our wok to scoop as much out rye as I could, I then poured what was left through a colander stopping to dump out the built-up grains when it got too full. I did this twice to end up with wash that was pretty clean of grain. I put it all in a carboy and put it in the fridge where it's been for almost 24 hours. I put all the rye that got separated from the wash back into one of my 6.5 mash buckets, sealed the lid half way around then slowly tilted it from a standing position to a slightly down position onto a holder with a pot under the lid so the remaining mash would slowly drip out over night. I find this really effective to get what's left stuck in the grain out. Again, a BOP with a false bottom would make this step unnecessary.

I do have a question, my wash is pretty thick...is this the nature of the beast? I'm hoping to get some clearing in the fridge. My sweet feed wash is very "beer-like"... brown with the consistency of a lager, this is cream-like in both color and consistency. For what I paid for the rye I'm going to run it, just wondering if there's issues with the thickness.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby der wo » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:34 pm

Insulate your still and run it really slow. Heat it up fast while stirring it.
This recipe is a bit outdated imo, only one rest without sparging, no glucane rest, no glucanase enzyme. Simple is not always best.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Smokee » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:42 pm

I'm seeing some separation but not much, only an inch or two from the top looks clearer.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby der wo » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:43 am

You compare it with your sweet feed wash, so it is your first AG?
Even with all tricks, rye is not as easy as bourbon. Not a good place to begin with AG.

You sweet feed was not milled I think. So lautering was easy and the beer was relatively clear. But an AG has to be milled or at least cracked, to release the starches. So it will always have more trub (except you do a hot break before fermentation).
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Smokee » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:22 am

der wo wrote:You compare it with your sweet feed wash, so it is your first AG?


Yes, sir.

The "settling line" dropped about an inch over night. (There's a distinct line that formed after a day in the fridge that looks like some clearing is taking place)
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby still_stirrin » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:38 am

The tough part about working with rye malt is the beta glucans.

If you don't do a glucan reduction rest in your mash protocol, the glucans are viscous and very sticky...like glue. If you rub your fingers together when slightly wetted with the liquor, they'll tend to stick together. The glucan rest reduces those and helps the sweet liquor flow better (you probably noticed the "syrup-like" consistency when you transferred it).

These long chain carbohydrates in your mash will make it difficult to clear, and likely you won't get it very clear when compared to a single malt recipe.

A traditional rye whiskey is a wonderful drink. But it is a challenge to get it there. Patience, practice, and perserverance are virtues. And you will be rewarded with a prized product. But, oh what a mess to deal with to get there.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Smokee » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:13 pm

still_stirrin wrote:The tough part about working with rye malt is the beta glucans.

If you don't do a glucan reduction rest in your mash protocol, the glucans are viscous and very sticky...like glue. If you rub your fingers together when slightly wetted with the liquor, they'll tend to stick together. The glucan rest reduces those and helps the sweet liquor flow better (you probably noticed the "syrup-like" consistency when you transferred it).

These long chain carbohydrates in your mash will make it difficult to clear, and likely you won't get it very clear when compared to a single malt recipe.

A traditional rye whiskey is a wonderful drink. But it is a challenge to get it there. Patience, practice, and perserverance are virtues. And you will be rewarded with a prized product. But, oh what a mess to deal with to get there.
ss


I've read through this thread a few times and don't recall a rest, heck of a thing to miss on my part! No tragedy though, I'll prob clear it as best I can and try running it.

I fermented on the grain, UJ didn't... his mash doesn't look like what I got, would mine of turned out differently had I of removed the grain?
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby der wo » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:41 pm

This recipe has no glucane rest. That's one reason, why I find, it's not optimal.

I can't help you much with the different looking of your mash and the one of UJ. I always ferment and distill rye on the grain and I use very fine milled rye, so my version is very different.
You write, you get a clear layer at the top of mash. This is a sign for good conversion. :thumbup:
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Smokee » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:52 am

der wo wrote:This recipe has no glucane rest. That's one reason, why I find, it's not optimal.


Would you be interested in fixing this? I'd do what I can to help... rewrite and post. Maybe a few others could chime in and make this a great all-rye recipe.

Right now the mash I made is about 55% settled. I'm hoping it'll settle more when me and the fam are out camping over the weekend. I'm really looking forward to some rye success!

To you and still_stirrin, I really appreciate your input!
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby MichiganCornhusker » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:00 pm

Myself, I've tried the "rest", even tried the SebFlo enzymes just for slimey mashes, and I haven't noticed any big difference.
It certainly didn't make the slime go away in my case. I think rye is kinda like corn, you gotta meet it on its own terms.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Smokee » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:42 pm

MichiganCornhusker wrote:Myself, I've tried the "rest", even tried the SebFlo enzymes just for slimey mashes, and I haven't noticed any big difference.
It certainly didn't make the slime go away in my case. I think rye is kinda like corn, you gotta meet it on its own terms.


Did you run it thick? How'd it turn out? I haven't touched my carboy since putting it in the fridge, I'm afraid of shaking it, but it does seem to be settling... albeit slow.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby MichiganCornhusker » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:22 pm

Smokee wrote:Did you run it thick? How'd it turn out?

I have a setup for steam distillation, so no fear of scorching.
I have run a small batch through my pot still before with good results. I actually added water to it to reduce the viscosity. I had to do 2 runs, but it didn't scorch.
Let it settle as much as you can, rack the clear off, and do like der wo says, stir it while heating up in still, if possible, then run it.

I haven't noticed a big difference in my mash with the temperature rests, but maybe that's what saved me from scorching in my still?
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby der wo » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:12 am

Smokee wrote:Would you be interested in fixing this? I'd do what I can to help... rewrite and post. Maybe a few others could chime in and make this a great all-rye recipe.

100% Rye malt off the grain with glucane rest and to waters.
I would use my malt whisky recipe, but with a lower temp for the first water, because the glucane rest needs a low temp. 40°C instead of 60°C. And the first rest has to be longer than usual, because a glucane rest needs much time.

Recipe for 10kg coarse milled rye malt:

-Heat up 24l water to 40°C.
-Add the rye, the temp should be at 35°C now.
-Rest at least 3h. Stir occasionally.
-Lauter in a bucket. (I do this with a curtain cloth like a BIAB)
-Heat up 18l water to 75°C.
-Put the rye into the water.
-Rest at least 2h. Stir occasionally.
-Heat it up to almost a boil while stirring constantly.
-Lauter in ANOTHER bucket.
-While stirring the warm beer in the first bucket add SLOWLY the hot beer of the second bucket. Interrupt when the temp rises over 40°C.
-When both beers are united, close the fermenter and wait until the temp is 30°C. Aerate and add yeast.

I never tried it, because I make rye always on the grain with my agitator still. But for barley malt this recipe is very efficient and proven to finish under FG 1.000.
But I am unsure about:
-Is the 40°C the right temp? The 35°C after adding the rye is important, not the 40°C of the water.
-Is there a danger of infections, because the first water is never heated over 40°C?
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby still_stirrin » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:32 am

I read this from "the beer acadamy":

thebeeracadamy wrote:...If you are brewing a beer with more than 15% rye, extra steps should be taken to ensure a smooth brewday. The importance of these tips increase as the amount of rye you are using increases.

Multi-Step Mash – The outer “shell” of the rye malt is extremely high in beta-glucans. Long story short, at saccharification temperatures (140-160°F) those beta-glucans become very sticky. This combined with the huskless nature of rye leads to many of the stuck mashes when brewing rye beers. In order to combat the sticky nature of beta-glucans when brewing with rye, a step mash (multiple infusion or decoction) can be employed. A Beta-Glucanase rest at 110F for about 30 minutes will help improve your lauter and prevent a stuck mash.

Sparge Slow – The higher the proportion of rye, the thicker the resulting wort will be. The wort from my 100% Rye Ale was the thickness of a thin syrup. This will greatly increase sparge times, so be prepared. Unfortunately, there is not much that can be done about this except open another beer.

I've made rye beers with up to 65% rye malt. It is a sticky mess.

I always use a glucan rest, protein rest and the saccharification rest. And I always lauter the mash. I have made a horizontal lauter tun, a sort of "pig trough" style vessel. It is made with stainless sheet and I have insulated it with poly-styrene foam insulation. Using rice hulls helps a little to keep the runoff flowing. And keeping the temperature up will help too. But it still is a sticky mess to deal with.

Rye has a strong flavor. So, I can't imagine how a 100% rye beer would taste. Peppery, and spicy are common even with 50% rye, let alone the 65% that I make. I think you need something to balance the rye somewhat...barley, wheat, or oats. But it's up to you how brave you want to be.

Good luck with the mash. It is definitely a "big boy's" undertaking.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby MichiganCornhusker » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:36 am

still_stirrin wrote:I've made rye beers with up to 65% rye malt. It is a sticky mess.

Thanks, SS, happy to know I'm not totally doing it wrong.
Often I read about the gluco rest, and it's presented as the "fix" for the viscosity challenges with rye. As if all the sticky will go away if you just do the rest.
I also read where many folks have had trouble with heavy rye recipes scorching when stripping. I do know that rye is one of those things that will accumulate on the bottom of my BOP just like a glue if I'm not careful to stir continuously.

I like the character rye brings to my whiskeys, so I use a lot of it, but it does keep me on my toes.

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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby der wo » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:11 am

Yes, Rye remains more difficult than Bourbon. A glucane rest or adding Sebflo doesn't fix it. But I recommend to do all possible helping details (glucane rest or adding enzyme, still insulation, stirring while heating up) to avoid a scorch.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby Smokee » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:42 am

It's been a fun so far, I'm going to run it eventually. I think my next batch will be rye, corn, barley.

This is what I'm up against, I thought the top part would be thinner and easier to run but it's pretty thick too.
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Re: How I do a cooked rye mash

Postby DBCFlash » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:45 am

Got 10# rye malt trying this tomorrow. Making a five gallon mash. Wish me luck!
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