Fermentation Problems

njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:14 pm

Hi all,

I'm having some trouble with my fermentation. I started with an all corn mash (used amylase for starch conversion) and put in my fermentation bucket on Saturday at 6% PA.

Sunday, nothing was happening. No cap, no bubbles. On Monday, still nothing so I pitched more yeast. By Tuesday I had some nice bubbling action with a decent cap formed.

Then I checked it this morning (Wednesday) and back to nothing. No cap, no bubbling, nothing. There aren't any funky smells (still sweet with a very slight yeastiness), but I'm just not getting anywhere. I still have 5% PA. I pitched some more yeast but I feel like there was something else wrong. Any ideas?

I'm using DADY with Fermax. Fermentation is inside at room temperature at night and outside with temperatures in the 80s during the day.

I expected fermentation to last 2-4 days. At this rate it will take weeks! Is it salvageable?

Thanks in advance for your help.

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Post by **MichiganCornhusker** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:18 pm

njurbanshiner wrote:I started with an all corn mash (used amylase for starch conversion) and put in my fermentation bucket...

I missed the part about how you cooked the heck out of the corn for hours, and then let it cool back down to around 150F, and THEN used amylase for starch conversion.
If you didn't cook the corn at high temps, you have a bunch of starchy water that won't convert. If you did cook the corn, then we need recipe, protocol, and current pH.

der wo · Post by **der wo** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:20 pm

Which amylase? Liquid or powder? Alpha-amylase or Glucoamylase or both?

We need an exact mashing procedure please. Temperatures, durations, amounts...

Edit: MC was faster...

njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:30 pm

Thanks for the feedback and sorry for skipping some important details. I cooked the corn for 2 hours at 150-155F, adding the amylase halfway through.

Will the saccharometer reading include unusable starches? I got excited when I saw 6% PA, thinking I had plenty of usable sugar.

I don't have a pH meter--should I buy one?

I'm using powdered amylase. The package doesn't specify a type.

Edit: My corn was 100% corn polenta.

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njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:34 pm

Sorry, double post.

der wo · Post by **der wo** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:34 pm

150-155 is not cooking. You have to cook it first and then add two different enzymes. Search for Booners casual all corn recipe for whiskey with enzymes and NCHoochs Carolina bourbon for conversion with malt.

You don't need a pH-meter. But a bit more reading and better enzymes.

njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:10 pm

So...is adding sugar considered cheating? And will it be worth drinking if I do? Because I'd like to have something to run instead of just pouring this out. I'll cook the next batch more...a lot more. Reading the recipes it looks like it's almost impossible to overcook it? I'm also going to experiment with rye so I'll let you know how that goes.

This is my enzyme. Is it even worth continuing to use it?

Also on my earlier question about the saccharometer...is it reading starch too or just sugar? If it's measure starch too how do I know if I have usable sugar in the mash?

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Post by **cuginosgrizzo** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:25 pm

Hi nj. does the amylase come with some instructions? if it is meant for low temp you might have added it at the wrong temperature and denatured the enzymes. To answer your questions, to understand if conversion is done use a iodine test. If you add sugar now you'll have a very starchy end product, prone to scorching.
I suggest heading to the T&T recipes on this forum, choose one and follow it to a T.

Post by **MichiganCornhusker** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:26 pm

As far as recipes for someone just starting out, Corn and Rye are in the deep end of the pool. They can both be very challenging to work with.
The questions you're asking are pretty basic, and the whiskey you are trying to make right out of the gate is fairly involved.

My advise is to toss what you have there, and select a simpler recipe to get your feet wet. Sugar is not cheating, and it might be a good way to get started, with the appropriate recipe.

But first, read Cranky's Spoonfeeding thread, end to end, and then repeat. Then pick out a recipe from the Tried & True section.

This here is the best place to learn to make spirits, dive in, read up, keep us posted.

njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:54 pm

cuginosgrizzo wrote:Hi nj. does the amylase come with some instructions? if it is meant for low temp you might have added it at the wrong temperature and denatured the enzymes. To answer your questions, to understand if conversion is done use a iodine test. If you add sugar now you'll have a very starchy end product, prone to scorching.
I suggest heading to the T&T recipes on this forum, choose one and follow it to a T.

No, unfortunately it didn't come with any instructions :-/

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njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:58 pm

MichiganCornhusker wrote:As far as recipes for someone just starting out, Corn and Rye are in the deep end of the pool. They can both be very challenging to work with.
The questions you're asking are pretty basic, and the whiskey you are trying to make right out of the gate is fairly involved.

My advise is to toss what you have there, and select a simpler recipe to get your feet wet. Sugar is not cheating, and it might be a good way to get started, with the appropriate recipe.

But first, read Cranky's Spoonfeeding thread, end to end, and then repeat. Then pick out a recipe from the Tried & True section.

This here is the best place to learn to make spirits, dive in, read up, keep us posted.

Yeah, the books I read made this all seem a lot easier than it is turning out to be. Lots more reading ahead. I'll let you know how my next run goes...

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Titus-a-fishus · Post by **Titus-a-fishus** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:00 pm

What is the temp in the room the ferment is in?

If the wash is sweet then you have sugar.

How old is the yeast you're using?

Have you left the grain in the fermenter to feed the yeast?

Post by **MichiganCornhusker** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:08 pm

njurbanshiner wrote:Lots more reading ahead. I'll let you know how my next run goes...

I've seen some bad videos on youtube, also, that make everything seem so easy.
If you check out Cranky's thread, and read up on methods in the recipe section here, you will get a good handle on what to expect.
With a bit more research on the site here, your next run will go much smoother. Good luck.

njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:16 pm

Titus-a-fishus wrote:What is the temp in the room the ferment is in?

If the wash is sweet then you have sugar.

How old is the yeast you're using?

Have you left the grain in the fermenter to feed the yeast?

Thermostat says 69F

Yeast is new. Purchased less than a month ago.

Yes, the grain is in there.

Edit: I just tasted the mash. Yuck. It has a sour taste. Down the sink it goes :-(

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der wo · Post by **der wo** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:27 pm

njurbanshiner wrote:about the saccharometer...is it reading starch too or just sugar? If it's measure starch too how do I know if I have usable sugar in the mash?

Hydrometers and refractometers are not able to distinguish fermentable and unfermentable sugars. Also an iodine test is not the right tool. You simply have to mash well. A low FG at the end of fermentation will show you a good conversion before the fermentation...
Your amylase is pure alpha amylase I think. It liquifies good but it gets only partially fermentable.
I would add sugar for 5% more, ferment it dry and run it. But of course you will overtrump it soon.

Post by **shadylane** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:48 pm

njurbanshiner wrote:I just tasted the mash. Yuck. It has a sour taste. Down the sink it goes

Get some Gluco and high temp alpha amylase.
Then follow this recipe. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=49869
Also when a mash has finished fermenting it will be sour.

Hound Dog · Post by **Hound Dog** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:24 pm

njurbanshiner wrote: Yeah, the books I read made this all seem a lot easier than it is turning out to be.

They all do. After all would you have bought a book titled "The hard, expensive and difficult path to making liquor"? Nope. That book will be old and dusty beside all the books flying off the shelf titled "Easy and cheap top shelf liquor".

njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:38 pm

shadylane wrote:
njurbanshiner wrote:I just tasted the mash. Yuck. It has a sour taste. Down the sink it goes
Get some Gluco and high temp alpha amylase.
Then follow this recipe. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=49869
Also when a mash has finished fermenting it will be sour.

Already ordered. That's exactly what I'm doing next

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Post by **raketemensch** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:41 pm

If your bag just says "amylase," odds are that you just have alpha. That's not going to get your sugars converted to something that your yeast will eat -- you'll need gluco amylase or some malted barley to get the conversion you need.

MitchyBourbon · Post by **MitchyBourbon** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:43 pm

njurbanshiner wrote: Also on my earlier question about the saccharometer...is it reading starch too or just sugar? If it's measure starch too how do I know if I have usable sugar in the mash?

Learn how to do an iodine test. It will tell you if you have done a decent conversion and it will tell you before it is too late. You can do an iodine test while you are mashing. Just take a small sample, run a test and discard the sample. If the test comes out positive for the presence of starches keep mashing.

Sure, waiting to see if your if your FG is too high will tell you that something went wrong, but by then its too late to fix. Not to mention there are many reasons why a ferment might finish with a high FG. So you won't even know what the cause was.

Learn how to do an iodine test.

der wo · Post by **der wo** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:11 am

MitchyBourbon wrote:Learn how to do an iodine test. It will tell you if you have done a decent conversion and it will tell you before it is too late. You can do an iodine test while you are mashing. Just take a small sample, run a test and discard the sample. If the test comes out positive for the presence of starches keep mashing.

But it does not tell you, if the enzymes are still working and will continue while fermentation. My lowest FGs with low malt content had a bad iodine test after mashing.

rager · Post by **rager** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:07 pm

der wo wrote:
MitchyBourbon wrote:Learn how to do an iodine test. It will tell you if you have done a decent conversion and it will tell you before it is too late. You can do an iodine test while you are mashing. Just take a small sample, run a test and discard the sample. If the test comes out positive for the presence of starches keep mashing.
But it does not tell you, if the enzymes are still working and will continue while fermentation. My lowest FGs with low malt content had a bad iodine test after mashing.

ive never had a iodine test that actually showed good conversion and i gave up on that a long time ago. it now more like ive done it so many times with the same amount of grains and protocal and aiming for that 1.065 or better conversion that , once i get the SG to where i want im happy. i also believe the enzymes continue to work during fermentation. i also use liquid enzymes for my bourbon even though i might not need to , but they are cheep and a cap full of gluco alpha only ensures better conversion. wtf not.

njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:42 pm

Finally got around to starting that Boomer's recipe.

6lb corn grits
3 gal H2O

I followed all the instructions from Boomer's, and I actually used a bit of extra heat early on after adding the alpha. Added the gluco at 130° (that's from the instructions on my enzymes)

Right now I'm at 110°. The liquid is thin and sticky sweet. I'm measuring 1.070 (before adjusting for temperature). I'll let it sit overnight and start the ferment in the morning. Thanks for all the help everybody--things are already looking MUCH better! I'll keep you updated...

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njurbanshiner · Post by **njurbanshiner** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:02 am

Woke up this morning, temp was just over 80°. OG at 1.074 (adjusted). Pitched my yeast and fermax. Let's see how this goes.

Oh, and MitchyBourbon, below is a picture of my iodine test. I'd say I have good conversion

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Post by **skow69** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:04 am

This might be helpful. I find it easier to read on a white background. Just a blob on a white plate works.

MitchyBourbon · Post by **MitchyBourbon** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:53 pm

@ njurbanshiner
That is an excellent example of an iodine test showing a complete conversion. Well done! That said, I'm sure as you gain experience with mashing, you will eventually not bother with doing an iodine test. Many here, myself included, don't bother.

Also, if you want to know if your enzymes are still working you can use the iodine test to tell you. You probably won't watch to bother with this either cuz it's way too much effort. Anyhow, here's how:

Take a sample and divide it between 2 shot glasses.
Do an iodine test on one glass if that test shows a good conversion then proceed.

Add a very small pinch of corn starch to the second shot glass. Stir.
Put half of this into a third shot glass.
Now quick do an iodine test on the remainder of the second shot glass. It should show that unconverted starches are present.
Now warm the third shot glass to 150 °F for 20 min.
Do an iodine test on the third shot glass.

If it shows that no starches are present then you know your enzymes are still active.

MitchyBourbon · Post by **MitchyBourbon** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:57 pm

skow69 wrote:This might be helpful. I find it easier to read on a white background. Just a blob on a white plate works.

+1

Post by **MichiganCornhusker** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:58 pm

MitchyBourbon wrote:If it shows that no starches are present then you know your enzymes are still active.

??? Mitchy, are you suggesting that the enzymes would be expired, or denatured, at mash temps?
The general line of thinking here has been that the enzymes will be present to convert starches to sugars indefinitely throughout the fermentation cycle, even at lower temps.
Just curious what your thoughts are on this...
Edit: I ask not as a challenge, but with much due respect and genuine interest!

MitchyBourbon · Post by **MitchyBourbon** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:17 pm

MichiganCornhusker wrote:
MitchyBourbon wrote:If it shows that no starches are present then you know your enzymes are still active.
??? Mitchy, are you suggesting that the enzymes would be expired, or denatured, at mash temps?
The general line of thinking here has been that the enzymes will be present to convert starches to sugars indefinitely throughout the fermentation cycle, even at lower temps.
Just curious what your thoughts are on this...
Edit: I ask not as a challenge, but with much due respect and genuine interest!

No, I'm suggesting that you can prove that your enzymes are still viable by doing multiple iodine tests.
The first test shows the conversion is complete.
The second shows (after adding a tiny bit of corn starch) that unconverted starches are present.
The third test shows (after time and mash temps) that the enzymes are still active.

If the third test had still shown that starches were present then you would assume your enzymes were weak or completely denatured.

I would not bother doing this myself. I'm just showing that it could be done if you were so inclined.

Post by **MichiganCornhusker** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:46 pm

MitchyBourbon wrote: I'm just showing that it could be done if you were so inclined.

Thanks for the reply. I've actually done versions of this experimenting with my corn malt, trying to understand the balance between undermodified vs.overmodified, cooked vs. uncooked, sprout length, malt vs. enzymes... Chjecking SG and iodine.
Always looking for any gems I can gather about the malting/mashing process.

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