New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questions
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New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questions
Hi
I made my first run with my new VM still. It’s a 48” tall 3” column with lava rock. It has a 3” x 2” diameter takeoff Tee that reduces down to a 1” gate value, and then from there down to a ½” x ¾” Liebig (20” long). After the cleaning run, I ran 10 gallons of BW low wines at 40% ABV (treated with 1 tsp per quart soda ash).
First question: Much, maybe half, of the soda ash didn’t dissolve. I use Arm and Hammer Wash Soda. Do I need to leave it sit a day?
I poured the BW low wines into the keg and left the remaining soda ash residue behind. I ran the still as near as I could to Kiwistiller’s VM Operating instructions (Thanks Kiwisitller!). I let the column stabilize over a full hour. From more recent reading it sounds like I only need 20-30 minutes – I plan to try that next time and watch the temps more closely in that first hour.
I took off the foreshots/heads a bit faster than prescribed, but given that I have a 3” column vs his 2” column I should have been relatively the same rate. I ended up with 1.5 quarts heads.
Second question: Is the above correct in that because I have a 3” column I can effectively double takeoff rates compared to instructions for a 2” column?
Third question: As I understand so far, theoretically I should be able to get this down to 1 quart foreshots/heads. Maybe if the soda ash was completely dissolved and/or I take the heads off slower?
I collected hearts at 4 quarts/hr at 96%.
When I got to the tails (I noted first temperature jump), I tried closing down the takeoff valve to get the temp to drop back down. This had no effect. I even closed the valve entirely with no effect over several minutes. All the spirit collected after the temp spike has some taste of tails.
Fourth question, and what has really prompted me to write all this: What’s going on here? Any ideas what I was doing wrong, or could try differently next time?
So after cuts I had 11 quarts, or a 60% yield of very neutral product with which I am very happy. I look forward to getting some more BW going and refining the process from here.
Lippy
I made my first run with my new VM still. It’s a 48” tall 3” column with lava rock. It has a 3” x 2” diameter takeoff Tee that reduces down to a 1” gate value, and then from there down to a ½” x ¾” Liebig (20” long). After the cleaning run, I ran 10 gallons of BW low wines at 40% ABV (treated with 1 tsp per quart soda ash).
First question: Much, maybe half, of the soda ash didn’t dissolve. I use Arm and Hammer Wash Soda. Do I need to leave it sit a day?
I poured the BW low wines into the keg and left the remaining soda ash residue behind. I ran the still as near as I could to Kiwistiller’s VM Operating instructions (Thanks Kiwisitller!). I let the column stabilize over a full hour. From more recent reading it sounds like I only need 20-30 minutes – I plan to try that next time and watch the temps more closely in that first hour.
I took off the foreshots/heads a bit faster than prescribed, but given that I have a 3” column vs his 2” column I should have been relatively the same rate. I ended up with 1.5 quarts heads.
Second question: Is the above correct in that because I have a 3” column I can effectively double takeoff rates compared to instructions for a 2” column?
Third question: As I understand so far, theoretically I should be able to get this down to 1 quart foreshots/heads. Maybe if the soda ash was completely dissolved and/or I take the heads off slower?
I collected hearts at 4 quarts/hr at 96%.
When I got to the tails (I noted first temperature jump), I tried closing down the takeoff valve to get the temp to drop back down. This had no effect. I even closed the valve entirely with no effect over several minutes. All the spirit collected after the temp spike has some taste of tails.
Fourth question, and what has really prompted me to write all this: What’s going on here? Any ideas what I was doing wrong, or could try differently next time?
So after cuts I had 11 quarts, or a 60% yield of very neutral product with which I am very happy. I look forward to getting some more BW going and refining the process from here.
Lippy
- still_stirrin
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Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
It works best in the boiler. At room temperature, it isn't very soluable...as you noticed. So, add it to the boiler next time.lippy wrote:...First question: Much, maybe half, of the soda ash didn’t dissolve. I use Arm and Hammer Wash Soda. Do I need to leave it sit a day?...I poured the BW low wines into the keg and left the remaining soda ash behind...
Well, not necessarily. With a 3" column over a 2", you can increase the vapor (mass) flow while still maintaining an optimal (stabilized) vapor speed. But, you'll need more power to do it...remember vapor production (mass) is a function of the mixture's saturation temperature and the heat input (power). So, flow rate needs more power to push more vapor.lippy wrote:...Second question: Is the above correct in that because I have a 3” column I can effectively double takeoff rates compared to instructions for a 2” column?
But, depending on how much reflux you're getting may adjust the condensate output rate. In other words, more reflux means higher purity and that means more of the vapor produced is refluxing back down the column, not going out the product outlet.
Regardless what you've read else where regarding percentages of heads/hearts/tails, you'll get what you get. If you're very conservative with your cuts, you'll get more heads and tails and less hearts. But what you'll get will be BETTER. Your choice. (no cookbook answer here, sorry).lippy wrote:...Third question: As I understand so far, theoretically I should be able to get this down to 1 quart foreshots/heads. Maybe if the soda ash was completely dissolved and/or I take the heads off slower?
You're not doing anything wrong. You're LEARNING. And your still is unique and YOU have to learn her quirks. So, don't panic. Continue to read the forum and learn from others. You'll get there...it just takes experience...and there is no "pill" for that.lippy wrote:...Fourth question, and what has really prompted me to write all this: What’s going on here? Any ideas what I was doing wrong, or could try differently next time?
Be safe. Be responsible. And be discrete.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
Actually, the soda ash works best on low wines rather than wash... And it works best if left to sit for 1 - 2 weeks... From my recollection...
- bluefish_dist
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Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
The baking soda will react quickly if needed, if not it won't do much. Also let sit for a few days prior to running. Don't do it to wash, but to low wines. Don't want any protein with baking soda.
The tails were compressed. When the temp jumped you were into the tails. That is why it was hard to get the abv up with more reflux. You will also notice that the output will drop off as well.
The tails were compressed. When the temp jumped you were into the tails. That is why it was hard to get the abv up with more reflux. You will also notice that the output will drop off as well.
Formerly
Dsp-CO-20051
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Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
Best way to learn is by doing. Best way to learn while doing is to experiment. As long as you are not spilling the output you can always put it all back in the boiler and start again - I had to re-run a batch and I learned heaps by running the VM still in quick succession.
I equalise my CCVM still for an hour for the reasons Kiwistiller says that is until someone can give a proper explanation why one hour is too long?
There is a tradeoff between output rate and quality you'll find that by experimenting and then you'll factor that in when scheduling the timeslot for a run. At the end of the day when it is in your glass you'll only care about how good it tastes and not how quickly it came out.
Relax experiment learn and enjoy!
I equalise my CCVM still for an hour for the reasons Kiwistiller says that is until someone can give a proper explanation why one hour is too long?
There is a tradeoff between output rate and quality you'll find that by experimenting and then you'll factor that in when scheduling the timeslot for a run. At the end of the day when it is in your glass you'll only care about how good it tastes and not how quickly it came out.
Relax experiment learn and enjoy!
--
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
- der wo
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Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
When I mix 5g washing soda in 1l low wines, I stand it on a radiator and it dissolves. Probably it had worked well in the boiler during your run.
Or try next time caustic soda (1g/l). Be careful. Glasses, gloves...
You can have the double output with a 3". But only if you invest the double energy. At how much power did you distill?
I have run a VM two times only, so I am not 100% sure here. When you don't get the abv up again, the amount of alcohol left in the still isn't worth it. And of course even 96% will contain tails at the end of a run. What you describe for me sounds like, that your VM is doing exactly this, what a VM is the perfect tool for.
Or try next time caustic soda (1g/l). Be careful. Glasses, gloves...
You can have the double output with a 3". But only if you invest the double energy. At how much power did you distill?
I have run a VM two times only, so I am not 100% sure here. When you don't get the abv up again, the amount of alcohol left in the still isn't worth it. And of course even 96% will contain tails at the end of a run. What you describe for me sounds like, that your VM is doing exactly this, what a VM is the perfect tool for.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
Thanks for all the feedback.
I did put the soda ash in the low wines (not the wash) -- I just didn’t realize it worked better in the boiler. I’ll try that next time.
I can’t really answer regarding how much heat I was putting to the still as I run gas. It was about medium on what my burner can produce, but that’s kind of meaningless. Basically it was just enough to get the still producing vapor, and maybe just a touch more heat than that to ensure I was refluxing. I can’t hear the refluxing so what I do one I reach vapor temp I temporarily, and briefly, shut down the cooling water to make sure I’m getting steam. I do this a couple of time to make sure the burner setting is low, but not too low. IIRC, it took maybe only 5 seconds to get vapor when I did that and then I just left the temp there through the whole run.
Thanks again for the feedback. I will continue to experiment and learn.
lippy
I did put the soda ash in the low wines (not the wash) -- I just didn’t realize it worked better in the boiler. I’ll try that next time.
I can’t really answer regarding how much heat I was putting to the still as I run gas. It was about medium on what my burner can produce, but that’s kind of meaningless. Basically it was just enough to get the still producing vapor, and maybe just a touch more heat than that to ensure I was refluxing. I can’t hear the refluxing so what I do one I reach vapor temp I temporarily, and briefly, shut down the cooling water to make sure I’m getting steam. I do this a couple of time to make sure the burner setting is low, but not too low. IIRC, it took maybe only 5 seconds to get vapor when I did that and then I just left the temp there through the whole run.
Thanks again for the feedback. I will continue to experiment and learn.
lippy
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Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
Lippy, Your first question... you still should be able to control your still, even if it is 3", to get a very low rate of output. I guess crack open the valve until you get output and slowly close the valve until you get the rate of output you want. You may get pooling of condensate behind the valve so when you fist open it there will be an initial slight gush before it settles down.
I converted my VM to a CCVM (no valve) and am loving operating it.
I converted my VM to a CCVM (no valve) and am loving operating it.
--
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
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Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
I treat my low wines (for a reflux run) with baking soda. I let it sit for at least a week,though...
20-30 min. in full reflux, is roughly how I run my column, too..
However, mine is just a 2" with a 25 L boiler.
So for your 10 gallons of low wines, I reckon it takes some more time...especially with a 3" column that size.
As Still stirrin explained mass flow, power etc. comes into play.
Btw...Is your column insulated?
It should be, as this will provide a much more stable run AND you'll bring the column to equilibrium faster, than without insulation (this is an important fact one shouldn't neglect..!)
If you run your still outdoors, it matters even more, because a draft is all it takes to disturb the fine balance you are trying to establish in your column.
People talk about " compressing heads and tails", that's rubbish..! There is nothing to compress, as the still shouldn't have any notable pressure inside.
I like to use the term "concentrate", cause that is exactly what's happening in a column that runs in full reflux.
The higher volatile stuff (lighter fractions) goes to the top of the column and CONCENTRATE there, ready to be drawn off as foreshots.
Now that will only happen if your column is in a stabilized state and a constant reboiling of the (still hot) reflux occurs.
Then and only then the fractions will separate and form "layers" according to their mass.
That's why it's of utmost importance to provide a stable heat source AND ensure the column won't be affected by ambient temperature drops.
As for your question about heads...as Still stirrin wrote..."You get what you get" and he hit the nail right on top there..
I have a rule of thumb that says 10% of all available alcohol in the boiler charge, goes to the heads jar.
That is a veeeeeery rough guestimate, because a lot of other things are part of the game too....your ferment would be a major factor.
Edit: Don't expect twice the take off rate compared to a 2" column.
For such a still I'd say around 3-4 L per hour ( a US gallon is 3,78 L) would be realistic figures....but again it depends on how you like the quality of the product (more reflux means better separation, but slower take off rates).
In theory, you could even milk 5-6 L an hour from your rig.
20-30 min. in full reflux, is roughly how I run my column, too..
However, mine is just a 2" with a 25 L boiler.
So for your 10 gallons of low wines, I reckon it takes some more time...especially with a 3" column that size.
As Still stirrin explained mass flow, power etc. comes into play.
Btw...Is your column insulated?
It should be, as this will provide a much more stable run AND you'll bring the column to equilibrium faster, than without insulation (this is an important fact one shouldn't neglect..!)
If you run your still outdoors, it matters even more, because a draft is all it takes to disturb the fine balance you are trying to establish in your column.
People talk about " compressing heads and tails", that's rubbish..! There is nothing to compress, as the still shouldn't have any notable pressure inside.
I like to use the term "concentrate", cause that is exactly what's happening in a column that runs in full reflux.
The higher volatile stuff (lighter fractions) goes to the top of the column and CONCENTRATE there, ready to be drawn off as foreshots.
Now that will only happen if your column is in a stabilized state and a constant reboiling of the (still hot) reflux occurs.
Then and only then the fractions will separate and form "layers" according to their mass.
That's why it's of utmost importance to provide a stable heat source AND ensure the column won't be affected by ambient temperature drops.
As for your question about heads...as Still stirrin wrote..."You get what you get" and he hit the nail right on top there..
I have a rule of thumb that says 10% of all available alcohol in the boiler charge, goes to the heads jar.
That is a veeeeeery rough guestimate, because a lot of other things are part of the game too....your ferment would be a major factor.
Edit: Don't expect twice the take off rate compared to a 2" column.
For such a still I'd say around 3-4 L per hour ( a US gallon is 3,78 L) would be realistic figures....but again it depends on how you like the quality of the product (more reflux means better separation, but slower take off rates).
In theory, you could even milk 5-6 L an hour from your rig.
Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
Thank you for the additional responses, very helpful.
I'll give some more thought for length of time for stabilization.
Yes my column is fully insulated, and I'm running the still in a garage so it's protected from wind. Everything about the run was stable. I can definitely control the output with the valve. Everything about the initial run went according to Kiwistiller's write up, except at the end of the run where I wasn't able to compress/concentrate the tails by closing down the value; I definitely saw output slow down, I just didn't see the temperature fall so I was curious what was going on there.
I agree the still could likely run faster because when I was collecting hearts at 4L/hr the valve was nowhere near wide open, maybe only half way... I can't recall exactly. But I'm happy with the resulting product. And I don't need to collect any faster. I don't want to sacrifice quality for speed -- I'm just wanting to be efficient with my time. And now that I think that through, if I'm understanding everything correctly, it all a mater of compromise... you can be maximally efficient in product collection, or time, but not both.
lippy
I'll give some more thought for length of time for stabilization.
Yes my column is fully insulated, and I'm running the still in a garage so it's protected from wind. Everything about the run was stable. I can definitely control the output with the valve. Everything about the initial run went according to Kiwistiller's write up, except at the end of the run where I wasn't able to compress/concentrate the tails by closing down the value; I definitely saw output slow down, I just didn't see the temperature fall so I was curious what was going on there.
I agree the still could likely run faster because when I was collecting hearts at 4L/hr the valve was nowhere near wide open, maybe only half way... I can't recall exactly. But I'm happy with the resulting product. And I don't need to collect any faster. I don't want to sacrifice quality for speed -- I'm just wanting to be efficient with my time. And now that I think that through, if I'm understanding everything correctly, it all a mater of compromise... you can be maximally efficient in product collection, or time, but not both.
lippy
- still_stirrin
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Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
When running my VM, at the end of the run when the tails approach, the output rate drops significantly, almost coming to a halt. I don't have to close the VM valve at all, in fact I have to open it. And as I approach the tails (when the flow slows rapidly), the temperature doesn't go down...it increases, as the purity drops rapidly.lippy wrote:...by closing down the valve...I definitely saw output slow down, I just didn't see the temperature fall...
So when I say, "it compresses the tails", what I mean is that it pushes the tails closer to the very end when I would shut down the still. It allows me to collect more of the clean hearts. And in conjunction with the LM at the start of the run to "concentrate" or stack the higher volatiles (foreshots and heads) when I run a very high reflux ratio, giving me a very wide hearts cut at an extremely pure takeoff (95-96%ABV) for most of the run.
Now, part of the key to this may be in the choice of the ferment (Rad's All Bran), how it is fermented (unstressed with healthy yeast and good nutrients), how the wash is stripped (potstill with a foreshots and tails cut taken), and ester reduction using a little washing soda in the boiler for the spirit run. All of these steps help the neutral product.
But, as you noted, a good spirit run still takes time. My last spirit run with about 9 gallons of low wines took me about 8 hours from "power on" to "cleaned up & put away". But, 2 days later, I ran a batch of gin through my gin still using some of these clean hearts.....delicious. So, "time is relative"...or is that really, "time is irrelevant"?
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
- der wo
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Re: New to VM Still: Tails didn’t compress and other questio
Where do you know, that speed would sacrifice quality? Did you try it?lippy wrote:I don't want to sacrifice quality for speed -- I'm just wanting to be efficient with my time. And now that I think that through, if I'm understanding everything correctly, it all a mater of compromise... you can be maximally efficient in product collection, or time, but not both.
With a potstill we need a slow distillation for a cleaner taste.
But with a reflux still we need many redistillations for a clean taste. And a good combination of power, diameter and packing density helps, that every redistillation is as time and energy efficient as possible.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg