Novice Guide for Cuts (pot still)

[Dnderhead]

what ever you make the more flavorful the wash/mash the more flavor in the distilled beverage.
with rum I use about 2x the molasses that you whould sugar,,,,
1lb (1/2kg.)of sugar per gal. = 7% wash
2lb.(1kg) of molasses per gal.=8% wash (molasses varies ,,check it out before making)
(adding DAP. to wash seems to help ferment)

[skyline]

Could this guide be used for a reflux still. I have a suger wash ready for distilling. I am mainly wanting to make vodka at the moment so will not be adding any flavours hopefully.

Cheers

[kiwistiller]

Sort of... not really... what type of still are you running?

[skyline]

I'm running a still spirits reflux still. I have done Winos sugar wash and it has been clearing for a while now. What sort of jars do you collect the spirit in to be ble to get readings from the alcometer. Would 1l preserving jars be alright or too big?
Cheers

[kiwistiller]

have a look at my guide to a brew shop CM. if you're running a still like that you'll probably want to do stripping runs to get it a bit cleaner.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=11265

[Captain Morgan]

I guess what the beginner needs to realize is that not everything that comes out of the still is good. I remember when I first started out with my 5L pot that I didnt even like throwing the first 50ml because I thought I was missing out hehe

[kiwistiller]

Just wanted to give credit to the awesome drawings that have been edited into the original post to Ayay - Nice!
Source thread is here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=11913

[kiwistiller]

I ran an UJSM varient a few days ago and I thought I might keep some records of the cuts as a indication of what to expect for cuts on a spirit run.

The Charge: ~40l (hard to see in the keg ) of low wines @~45%, from successive ferments of UJSM style corn + rye + barley malt.

The Run: Heat up at full power (I'm using a 3 ring gas burner, about 30k btu I think), slow down and take foreshots off on very low power, power up a bit on heads, more power still on hearts (around 2/3 of full power now), and then let the take off rate naturally decrease as the % in the boiler drops, and tails start to creep in. once definately in tails, full power to strip.

The Destination: It is a good idea to decide what you are going to do with your spirits before doing cuts. If you plan to drink it white, for example, you need to make very tight cuts. oaking will smooth out some heads and tails, and help transform them into nicer flavours (although this is voodoo to me), so oaking lets you get away with slightly wider cuts. This run was destined to go on my toasted barrel sticks for 6 months to a year (hopefully ) so my cuts on this run will be reasonably wide.

The Result:

I've also been experimenting with power settings, I read that it is possible to run too slow, and powered up more during hearts. This increased my hearts cut by about 2 bottles on the heads side! Now as I said this is going on oak for quite a while (well, its a while for me!), six months to a year, so the heart cut is probably a bottle or two wider than usual. I was tempted to go one or two deeper into tails, but I have a fear of tails after the disappointment of screwing up my first pot still run that held all my hopes and dreams

Anyway thought this might help some folks get a visual of sorts.

Kiwi

[big worm]

very nice!. also the cuts change with what your actualy fermenting off and, what your tastes are. i did a very simular run on a wheat/corn malted barley ujssm. charge % and size close to yours. i started keeping around 76% down to 68% for a total of 13L of cut 45% that suits my tastes. you don't run into the tails as far as i did ,but i kept less heads. you are correct about changing up the speed on the middle of the run, i'm going to play with the speed more on this grain bill. one thing about ujssm you get a chance to good at it and know exactly what to expect...so experaments keep ya learning.

[kiwistiller]

yes I'd normally have about 2l more of heads, speeding up a bit really helped that. Stoked about that. Can't believe I hadn't come across it before.

i started keeping around 76% down to 68% for a total of 13L of cut 45% that suits my tastes.

My still sticks at 80% like glue on a doubling run. no idea why, but 76% for me is the second to last bottle of hearts (I just checked, they're still on the bench awaiting attention). different equipment I guess . I wonder if our proportions are similar. But you're right, I'm very tails-averse. Can't stand them.

[LWTCS]

speeding up a bit really helped that. Stoked about that. Can't believe I hadn't come across it before.

you are correct about changing up the speed on the middle of the run, i'm going to play with the speed more

I've been following and I sure do wish I had a controller rather than the DPDT right about now.

Maybe Santa can help me out.

[adama_bill]

Just wanted to say thank you Kiwi.
Good clear readin'

[kiwistiller]

No worries. I didn't come up with any of it, I'm just the messenger

[Usge]

yes I'd normally have about 2l more of heads, speeding up a bit really helped that. Stoked about that. Can't believe I hadn't come across it before....

...My still sticks at 80% like glue on a doubling run. no idea why, but 76% for me is the second to last bottle of hearts (I just checked, they're still on the bench awaiting attention). different equipment I guess . I wonder if our proportions are similar. But you're right, I'm very tails-averse. Can't stand them.

Been my experience on pot-stills too that you can run it too slow and it makes your likker meaner than hell. Gotta find the sweet spot through the hearts for each one. There was a flow-rate thread on the subject a while back. Also, I think Ayay updated the graphics/charts in that thread to more accurately depict a true pot-still run (the heads and tails fade further into the middle).

BLENDING WITH TAILS: I've been playing around a lot lately with blending for making oaked whiskey. As you say, if I'm making white-dog, I usually keep cuts lean and mean. But, doing whiskey or brandy, I'm always doing a much deeper cut. I've been experimenting with my cuts/blending to try and make the end result smoother and oak up more to my liking/taste and have come up with a few things you can try and see how they work for you. (taste being personal and all)

After I do a preliminary walk through using my nose and sampling watered down spirit, I start at the middle and move towards each end looking for jars that might be complimentary. At this point, the heads are pretty easy....the more you add, the more of "that' particular thing you get (including chemical like taste and sting). I keep a glass of ginger ale and water nearby. My next phase is to sample each of my jars from the initial cut full strength by putting just a teaspoon in a shot glass. I hold it in my mouth for just a second, then spit it out. If it stings like hell, or tastes really off...I don't include it (NOTE: this could mean "skipping jars as well). If it smells bad/strong...dont' include it. Same caveat as before. If it passes that test, I might swallow just a touch of it to check whats left for throat burn. From there, I move to adjacent jars doing the same thing. Once I get through it this way, I narrow it down to my initial cut (fairly conservative, just a "hint" of heads and/or tails..and NOTHING that stings my mouth or throat or or remotely smells/tastes bad or off).

From there, I move left or right...to see about additional adjancent jars that might be a possiblity for further testing. Moving left, more into heads, seams fairly linear to me. By that I mean..the further to the left of middle I go...the more smell, taste, sting, of heads it has. So, I won't spend a lot of time on it, other than to mention that late heads have some "vanilla" in it if you nose it out careful that are really nice. If it gets into a pronounced "butter" smell, you are too far. Again, if it stings...leave it out.

Tails are a little tricker... On nearly every run I've done, I've found that when tails first start to fade in....within a jar or 2 after you can just smell/taste a hint of tails, it will dump some absolutely nasty fusels out. And because this happens in early tails, its easy to overlook it and just include it if you are doing your cut..this jar...to this jar (linearly). I don't use a hydrometer on it at all. I do it purely by taste/smell. The flavor of tails, to me, as long as it still sweet and not bitter or too strong, is not objectional and it will add body, mouthfeel, a deeper "bourbon" like flavor and nose to your oaked corn or corn/barley/rye spirits. So, I keep the very early tails. But, anything that burns in your mouth a lot or smells a lot...is no good. Pass it over. On my last run, I tasted the hint of warm bourbon taste of tails starting and knew I was in early tails. Next jar, it was a little stronger, just slight smell of "grapes". Then the 3rd jar past middle...POW...burned like hell, very pronounced odor, and it was oily to rub between your fingers. OUT it went. Then something really interesting...the jar or so AFTER that, actually had "less" smell of tails, and was sweeter, and although the tails/bourbony flavor was a growing more pronounced, it was otherwise smooth. So, I brought it along for the next phase. Sometimes even later jars, where it gets watery, smooth out, and the smell/taste is much less objectionable and could be possibles for moving into next round. But in this case, it wasn't to be...the later jars got more and more smelly (disgusting) and the bitterness underneath, while diminishing, was too much. So, now I move on to next phase with 2 things..an initial cut that is "fairly" conservative, removing anything that stings, or has pronounced smell/offtastes, along with some adjacent jars, that also do not sting nor have pronounced smell or offtastes...that otherwise "might" be possiblities with further testing.

BLENDING IT: With my initial non-linear cut in front of me, and any additional jars I've included along for the ride as possibles.....I do my blend. I start by putting one teaspoon (full strength) from each of only the initial jars (which there were not many (maybe 3 out of 15) left from my initial cut (that didnt' burn/smell, etc) in my shotglass...nose it real good, and then taking as small a sip as I can I swallow it and check for burn (same as before) . You'll find at this point (if you've followed along tossing out anything that burned, stung, etc.), it actually compliments each other and smooths out even more together than it does separately! It's something of the alchemy of it...that the 3 things together are actually smoother than each one separately. Those jars that had just a hint of bite to it, or a hint of tailes...now are smooth like silk. You'll pick up some vanilla coming over in the nose, as well. Now, I pull up my possibles, and one at a time, add them into the mix (a teaspoon at a time). If it makes my blend sting or go off in one direction or another...I try using 2 teaspoons of my initial jars..and just one of the other jar to see if I can mix it out. I do this purely by taste. More "bourbon" flavor?? Add a touch of some of the tails...but be careful cause they are 'powerful' in the mix flavor wise. More vanilla? Let your blend go slightly more on the heads side. I try and find some tentative mix/ratio using teaspoons and a shotglass that is 1) smooth...not a hint of burn. 2) has the flavor profile I'm looking for. I also check it with water to make sure it holds as it's watered down.

When I get that far, I move on to using the jars to blend with each other. I start with my inital cut jars...and pour them together into a larger vessel. Then if there was any additional jars that had some flavor I wanted..I blend some in A LITTLE AT A TIME...checking it inbetween carefuly. Mix and match by taste till it tastes like you want. Check it full strength and with water. If you've done the previous work carefully, nothing you add at this point is going to make it "sting" bad or burn. But, if for some reason it does...toss it out. But, you CAN overdo the flavors one way or antoher (particularly with tails) if you add too much from these jars. So, just be careful. IN the end, I think I had 3.5-4 jars..out of 15. Its very smooth, even at full strength. It's even "smoother" when I water it. And it has a nice "bourbon"/grain flavor...just a hint in the tails...thats going to oak out real nice. Give it a try and see how it works for you. It wasnt' may idea (ie., non-linear blending), but that's my take on it. Give it a shot on your next go-round. Just use a shot glass and teaspoon. Can't mess up too much if you screw up that way. Check it that way before dumping your jars/bottles together. For my pot-still whiskey, I aim for a final blend that has a slightly pronounced sweet, bourbony like nose and flavor..with no burn/stinging. That bourbony stuff comes from doing the tails right. There can't be a "strong" odor coming from the bottle. It's "more "leaning" in that direction (no dirty sox smell, etc) . From there..I water it to 120-127 proof and oak it on cubes. Use less oak and longer time, and don't leave it too open or it will evaporate, drop a lot in proof and get WAY woody. I also shake it up good nearly every day. Point of this is...I never put a hydrometer to it..until the end. I did it purely by taste/smell to focus on that. Give it a try and see how it changes things.

[HookLine]

Nice stuff, Usge. Thanks.

[LWTCS]

Yep, this thread is a great tool.

[kiwistiller]

Thanks for the info Usge. I use that blending method when I want to drink it white. I guess I'm too lazy to do it for the oaked stuff

Maybe a mod could update those charts from ayay in the OP with the modified version?

[Usge]

Ive done much deeper cuts too for ageing. I think initially I named one bottle I did that way "skank" because it had a thick tails smell to it and I was "sure" I had ruined it. But, it oaked out ok...just took a long time. Actually ended up with a pretty interesting flavor..sort of like scotch and bourbon mix. So, I called it Scurbon. Or B'otch.

Those cuts, mentioned above, were done from a triple run (ie., Harry's method), where you do a strip, save that add wash/mash to capacity and strip again, save that and add wash/mash to capacity and do a final spirit run on that. Proofs out a lot lower cause it starts lower, (my blend came out somewhere in the high 130s instead of 160 or 170)) and it contains single runs, double, and triple all in the same batch. It made a nice flavor, but blending it out was a little harder cause there was less overall yield (as opposed to double running all low-wines/feints to capacity) and some of it was dirtier because of the singlins. So, I had to pick my way around it.

[adama_bill]

And thank you to Usge also.
Great you had the time to write up the info in a conversational style.

Regards

[Usge]

Ok boys and girls...going out on a limb here yet again with my latest testing to add another bit of info. Here it is in a nutshell, ....the size of the glass/jar you are collecting in...can make a difference in how you detect or perceive cuts. I had 2 pint jars..each had notable problems. Combined them together in a quart...all of sudden....wha' happened? It's smooth, taste ok.etc. BUT..if you water it down...whamo...same old objectionable offtastes, burn, stinging on the tongue..salty smell/taste.

So, another thing to add...is after you've separated everything out to the 'nth" degree..is start recombining it it various ways to see what holds up..and what doesn't.

[bstinga]

Usage wrote

going out on a limb here yet again with my latest testing to add another bit of info...

Spirit tasters/reviewers (commercial spirits that is) often will taste i.e. rum straight, then add some water and re-taste to reveal the different profiles. Check out some well know spirit reviewers and writers methodology for the exact process. Also see the Rum University website free program which is worth a read and really helps with 'ones' thought process when making cuts IMO.

So what you are saying isn't that far out along the limb.

[Usge]

I think I was more talking about the size of the collection glass/container/sample of raw spirit...prior to dilution. And how that could/may have an impact on the initial raw spirit sample. (ie., stuff that actually tastes/smells ok...in a larger jar...that would not if collected in smaller lots/jars). Dilution as a test method was already covered earlier in the thread (as well as elsewhere). But, I appreciate the vote of confidence

[Samohon]

Great Tut Kiwi.... Ive, been doing it all wrong.....

Thanks Man

S...

[kiwistiller]

Probably not wrong, just different. this way is pretty fail safe though, so good for learning.

[Nightforce]

Great tutorial! I've read it several times over the last few months but I'm still having trouble getting the cuts right.

I stripped out a 20L UJSSM wash and in what I thought was the hearts, collected a quart jar, then finished up the run. I let it air for a little over a day and now when I dilute and taste it, I'm still getting what I think is the tails "flavor". I collected the quart from about the 50% mark down which should have been right in the hearts. Given the picture of stripping run is it because I smeared the hearts with tails at stripping run speed? (~5 quarts in 55min) I've almost got enough to run a spirit run of UJSSM, which I think I'll add a gallon of all grain corn that I stripped out. Seems that it will be better to get a keg for runs as it would be easier to pull out better product as well as more of it; fooling with a pony keg seems to make it harder to get good cuts for a novice.

EDIT:

Went back and looked at a few things. If I kept from the 50% mark down for a quart I probably was in the tails already. Hearts on a spirit run from a 40% wash would be ~80% down to 70% so I should have kept the quart or so around the 70-75% mark and not the 50% mark???

[olddog]

Given the picture of stripping run is it because I smeared the hearts with tails at stripping run speed?

You should not need to worry about making cuts on a stripping run, collect everything after the foreshots and keep for a spirit run.

[blanikdog]

Interesting stuff, kiwi. I'll try speeding up the heads today on my plum run. Could be interesting cos I used a lot more plums for this run to see if I can get more plum flavour.

The plum wine is/was almost too good to distill.

blanik

[kiwistiller]

Nightforce, If you're just interested in a single jar of single run, then yeah, stripping speed smears cuts. If you do it again I'd try to slow down for a few minutes, then collect some slow, then speed up again to strip the rest.

Went back and looked at a few things. If I kept from the 50% mark down for a quart I probably was in the tails already. Hearts on a spirit run from a 40% wash would be ~80% down to 70% so I should have kept the quart or so around the 70-75% mark and not the 50% mark???

I thought you were doing a stripping run? after it's stripped its called low wines, not wash. you won't be getting 70--80% region on a stripping run. if all else fails, collect the whole lot in small jars, then pick your favourite. you can dump all the others into the low wines container after.

Good luck blanik! you done slivovitch before?

[blanikdog]

I had 140pound of plums Kiwi, so I guess the answer is yes. I really need to try 'real' ie commercial to gauge how better mine is.

I've not had slivovitch before so it's interesting all round. Coming out of the still it's bloody nice, I can say that.

blanik

EDIT: Dammit, there I go off topic again!! Bugger!!!

[Nightforce]

Kiwi,

I was doing a stripping run of UJSSM, I just wanted to save a good jar to try oaking to make a better product than I did before. I was a little confusing before, sorry.

I was stating that on a spirit run, hearts would be about 80-70% range given a 40% low wine charge. I was only at a 10%± wash so I wasn't going to get anywhere near the "heart range" of a low wine charge; relatively speaking. I should have collected a single jar sample somewhere up near the 70-60% range rather than the 50-40% range. Next time I'll slow it down as suggested and try and pick something around cask strength range to save as a single jar. I have ~3 gallons of DWWG stripped that I might run as a spirit run first, to practice cuts, then run those feints through the reflux column. I'm not sure how a wheat sugar head will oak up but what the hey, won't know until I try.

The off smell in my jar isn't really wet dog or wet cardboard either, it's more of a earthy off smell that I really can't place.