How much citric acid is needed?

Putting older posts here. Going to try to keep the novice forum pruned about 90 days work. The 'good' old stuff is going to be put into appropriate forums.

Moderator: Forum Mods

How much citric acid is needed?

Postby Jensemann » Sun May 10, 2009 8:34 am

Hello,

I have a wash of 5 litres, but I am not certain how much citric acid to use in it. It is only made up by pure white sugar, water and bakers yeast.

I looked through the great guide for making a sugar based wash. It said:

To get a pH of 5 use 0,01 grams i a 5 l wash. Only 0,01 grams?

Underneath it says:

Wal writes ...
Wine makers aim for a pH of 3.5 which equates to 0.6% acidity and which is equivalent to 6g of citric acid/litre of water, or 2 lemons/litre of water.

(1 lemon is roughly equal to 3g of citric acid or 1/2 tsp.)

A pH of 5.0 equates to 0.4% acidity and is equivalent to 4g of citric acid/litre of water, or 1 large lemon/litre of water.

1.2g of citric acid raises the acidity of 1litre by 0.13%.
i.e. 1tsp. (2lemons) raises acidity of 5litres of mash by 0.13%


Since a pH of 5,0 needs 4g of citric acid per litre of water, should I use 4x5=20 grams of citric acid on my 5l ?
Jensemann
Novice
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 8:19 am

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby Dnderhead » Sun May 10, 2009 8:57 am

your going to need more than citric acid. you need some yeast "food" there are some recipes on tried and true and recipe development.
some like "Gerber's" looks real easy
Dnderhead
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 13669
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby Jensemann » Sun May 10, 2009 9:15 am

Yes, I forgot to mention. I did put some yeast nutrition in there as well. I don't know if it is very good but "hartshorn" or "hornsalt" (ammonium bicarbonate) is the one I used.

I don't think it is widely used, but a friend of mine recommended it. It's very cheap and you can find it almost in every kitchen.

The only problem now is the amount of citric acid...
Jensemann
Novice
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 8:19 am

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby pro65 » Sun May 10, 2009 9:49 am

You only need as much as it takes to bring your ph where it needs to be.

If you start off with a ph of 7 add 1/2 tsp, stirr in good and recheck if its not low enough keep doing this until you get the desired ph.

In wposw he only uses 1 tsp full to 6 gal of wash.
take a look in tried a true recipe's. good luck

for my sugar washes I dont use any citric acid. my ph in my water works without lowering it.
Moonshine the flavor of the South.
User avatar
pro65
Swill Maker
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:18 am
Location: Valley of the three forks of the wolves.

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby rad14701 » Sun May 10, 2009 5:00 pm

Citric Acid serves two purposes with sugar washes... The first use is to aid in the optional invert sugar process... The second is lowering pH if added later in the recipe process... I'm not sure if anyone has experimented to see if adding during the invert sugar process carries over to lower pH... However, the citric acid issue is a lesser concern in the grand scheme of things... Nutrients, or the lack thereof, is a much bigger concern...
User avatar
rad14701
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 16658
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby Hookoo3 » Sun May 10, 2009 7:16 pm

I was also confused about the amount of acid to add. I think everboby's water has a different pH to start with. I ended up purchasing a pH meter and I am now able to adjust the pH to optimal yeast growth. Without a pH meter I found it was too much of a guess how much acid to add.
Hookoo3
Novice
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:01 am

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby Jensemann » Mon May 11, 2009 7:50 am

I am a bit uncertain wether I have enough yeast nutrition or not. Would it be wise to add more nutrition now, 1 day into the process?
Jensemann
Novice
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 8:19 am

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby rad14701 » Mon May 11, 2009 11:43 am

Jensemann wrote:I am a bit uncertain wether I have enough yeast nutrition or not. Would it be wise to add more nutrition now, 1 day into the process?

If all you added for nutrients was ammonium bicarbonate (essentially baking soda) you haven't added ANY nutrient... Now would be a good time to add nutrient, before the yeast starve off and die... All they have now for nutrients is themselves... If Yeast Autolysis kicks in the yeast count will rapidly diminish due to cannibalism...

There are several ways to add quick nutrient without jeopardizing the goal of neutral spirits from the wash... Toss in a 6oz can of tomato paste (no spices) or a box of Gerber baby cereal of almost any flavor (sounds odd but it has all the nutrients yeast need) and your yeast will be able to survive the fermentation process... Whatever you mix in should be in a puree form and should be stirred into the wash fairly well... The added oxygen provided by the stirring will help kick start the yeast regeneration process and will help keep the wash from chugging along at too slow of a pace for the remainder of the ferment... A pinch (1/8tsp - 1/4tsp) of Epsom Salt wouldn't hurt either if you have it on hand...
User avatar
rad14701
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 16658
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby zymos » Mon May 11, 2009 1:56 pm

rad14701 wrote:If all you added for nutrients was ammonium bicarbonate (essentially baking soda) you haven't added ANY nutrient...


I beg to differ...any ammonia salt is at least a source of Nitrogen, which is a major requirement for yeast nutrition.
Not that that alone would be sufficient....
zymos
Bootlegger
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:19 am

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby nh_yankee » Mon May 11, 2009 3:18 pm

I think he was referring to baking "powder" not soda (sodium bi-carbonate)
nh_yankee
Novice
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby Dnderhead » Mon May 11, 2009 4:35 pm

No cigar ,, although all are used as "leveling" agents all are different .
Baking soda -------sodium bicarbonate
baking powder------sodium bicarbonate+ cream of tartar or aluminum sulfate (other acidifying agents my be used)
ammonium bicarbonate-- used in industrial in the US, unpredictable as a leveling agent. but still used in some countries
Dnderhead
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 13669
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby rad14701 » Mon May 11, 2009 4:47 pm

I didn't totally explain my statement regarding ammonium bicarbonate... Yes, it does provide a supply of nitrogen to the yeast when used sparingly... However, with the absence of other nutrient compounds in combination with the buildup of ammonia, autolysis or toxic stress of the yeast can result... Ammonium bicarbonate also produces CO2 without the benefit of converting sugars to ethanol so part of what may be interpreted as fermentation - isn't...
User avatar
rad14701
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 16658
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby crank » Sat May 16, 2009 6:13 pm

hi. very new at this. I've been reading the forums. But I haven't found out a couple of things:
why do I need to add citric acid? If I have a barley/ rye ferment, do I need it?
are there only certain washes that need this? Why is Ph balance critical?

thanks.
crank
Novice
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby draco » Sun May 17, 2009 6:41 am

crank wrote:hi. very new at this. I've been reading the forums. But I haven't found out a couple of things:
why do I need to add citric acid? If I have a barley/ rye ferment, do I need it?
are there only certain washes that need this? Why is Ph balance critical?

thanks.


Just go to the tried and true section and make winos plane old sugar wash recipe. If it turns out good then run it. If not then start worrying about PH. Maybe I'm just lucky but I never worried about ph and mine turns out just fine.
20 Liter boiler
1 1/2 in Bok 36in tall with Graham condenser
Pot still head.
I make Absinthe using Wineos "Plain Ol Sugar Wash" and Nigel's "best absinthe so far" recipe.
draco
Rumrunner
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:47 am

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby trthskr4 » Mon May 18, 2009 3:57 am

If citric is added in before the inverting stage the ph will stay low to the ferment. I've been doing that for a while.
15 gallon pot still, 2"x18" column with liebeg condensor on propane.
Modified Charles 803 w/ 50gal boiler, never ran so far.
User avatar
trthskr4
Distiller
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:55 pm
Location: South

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby crank » Tue May 19, 2009 7:36 am

draco wrote:
crank wrote:hi. very new at this. I've been reading the forums. But I haven't found out a couple of things:
why do I need to add citric acid? If I have a barley/ rye ferment, do I need it?
are there only certain washes that need this? Why is Ph balance critical?

thanks.


Just go to the tried and true section and make winos plane old sugar wash recipe. If it turns out good then run it. If not then start worrying about PH. Maybe I'm just lucky but I never worried about ph and mine turns out just fine.


Yeah, i've been reading them for a while now. (this isn't meant as a complaint just a fact) that the information is difficult and hard to find... I've been experimenting with grain washes...
crank
Novice
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby Dnderhead » Tue May 19, 2009 7:48 am

I do cooked grain mash and add nothing. it comes out fine. I have a cupboard full of "chemicals" which I do not use often
Dnderhead
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 13669
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: How much citric acid is needed?

Postby justlikethis » Thu May 21, 2009 5:28 pm

Hookoo3 wrote:I was also confused about the amount of acid to add. I think everboby's water has a different pH to start with. I ended up purchasing a pH meter and I am now able to adjust the pH to optimal yeast growth. Without a pH meter I found it was too much of a guess how much acid to add.


What type of pH meter do you have? And how do you clean it? Thanks muchly.
justlikethis
Novice
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 4:44 pm


Return to Novice Forum Graveyard



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests