Internal Electric heat Element for Keg Pot Still?

[Prairiepiss]

Ok I will be nice and try to explain it yet again.

If you have a wash of 10%. You can see by your chart above. That its boiling point is 93 deg c. In order for that wash to produce enough vapors for distillation to happen. It needs to boil. But there are varying degrees of boiling. This is a simmer that produces very little vapors. And there is a hard boil that produces tons of vapors. But no mater how much heat you throw at it. The temp will never go above the boiling point of that liquid.

So now let's say you set the temp for 96 deg c. The controller will put full power to the element until it sees 96 deg c. It won't see that temp until enough vapors have been boiled off to get it down to 5% ABV. The problem is its doing it at full power. Making way to much vapors.

Ok now you say. Well I can adjust the amount of heat it will put out at a given blank. Well ok what do you set it at? And how do you maintain that setting when it needs to progressively change?

You need to control the amount of heat put into the boiler. Which in turn controls the amount of vapors created. To little heat gives you to little vapors to much heat gives you to much vapors. You have to be able to dial in the correct amount of heat to create the correct amount of vapors. Every still and every wash is different. So the needed vapors are also different. They also change all through the run.

Can a still be automatically controlled? Yes. But it is going to take more then one simple PID. And multiple thermometers. With complicated algorithms that will take many trials and errors to find. And when you do get it to work for one recipe. Now you have to adjust for another recipe.

But you are not going to do this with a simple PID with one thermometer. I've seen so many come here saying the same thing you are. Guess what I don't see. Someone coming back to tell us we are wrong. But until you build a still and run it. You won't really understand why it won't work. So build away. Prove us wrong. I would love to see someone do it.

There are automatic systems out there. Some I would trust some I wouldn't. Along with varying degrees of control. Like automatic shut downs. And or temp warnings. But only a few can control the still totally. And they are built for a specific still. That it is sold with. And they are a pretty robust system. That makes a PID look like a kiddy toy.

This forum has a disliking for automation. For safety reasons. Generally when it is proposed. They want to have a still that is set it and forget it. So they can walk off and not worry about it. And do other things. When in reality someone needs to be monitoring that still as long as it is running. It doesn't take much for a still to take a left turn. And leave your house burnt down. There are many posts here where. Someone has walked away for just a minute or even turned away. And came back to a still that has failed in one way it another. Or worse yet on fire.

Do I agree with this? Partially. I think that yes someone needs to be still side at all times. But I don't think we should shun automation. With that said. I will again say if you think you can prove us wrong. Please do. Document it well. So others can do the same. But I think you are in for a rude awakening.

[tobben79]

Top
Re: Electric Burner or Propane?
Postby Durace11 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:14 am
MeatballStunts wrote:
So if thats the case can anyone recommend a cheap electric burner?


Welcome, glad you are asking questions before you build/buy your still. The problem here is cheap electric burners/heaters are just that, cheap! You'd be much better off using an internal electric element with a phase angle controller. If you are going with a pot still it's even more important to have fine control as pot stills don't do well out of control.

You'll find all the info on these forums to build a fine electric pot still. Hours of reading await you.
Current Evolution:
MrDistiller > 2" potstill > copper 4" perf 4 plate flute

"I seal the lid with Silly Putty, that's OK ain't it ?"
~ kekedog13

"Attach a vibrator to it and hang it upside down. Let it work"
~Mr. P
Durace11
Distiller

Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:22 pm



Is this your post mr p
In last few sentinces you say pot still must have fine control. As pot still bo not do well out of control.
Ok so my questino is how fine do you realy need?
May be im over thinking it.
I thaught half degree was fine enouf

[Prairiepiss]

You can't get the temp out of your head. IT IS NOT TEMP CONTROL. It is heat control. Watts control. Amps control.

A phase angle controller controls how many watts you put into the boiler. Not how many degrees you put into the boiler.

You can't control the temp. The ABV of the still change controls the temp.

Think of the phase angle controller as a valve on a gas burner. Where you turn the knob up the flame gets bigger. Turn it down the flame gets smaller. The phase angle controller when you turn the knob up. The more watts are out out by the element. Turn it down and and its less watts into the boiler.

Example. My pot still runs good on 900 watts. If i turn it up to 1500watts its running way to fast. The vapors ate overcoming the condenser. And tails are smearing all over my hearts. If I turn it down to 500 watts. I'm hardly getting anything out of the still. Drip drip drip.

I don't know what else to say to you. You have blinders on and can't see the light. Maybe someone else can knock some since into you. I've done all I cam here. Good luck.

[bellybuster]

"I thaught half degree was fine enouf"

you're not getting it. It is not temp you want to control, it is power input. temp is controlled by the wash itself. When he's talking control he's talking about the control of power, wattage being put into the wash. You control the power put in in order to maintain desired output rate. It really is a very simple concept that has been covered over and over
Most of us don't even have a thermometer on our stills. (pot stills)

[bellybuster]

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 65&t=16635

did you read this???

[Prairiepiss]

Most of us don't even have a thermometer on our stills. (pot stills)

Oh now you are really gona screw with his head.

Yes a thermometer is not needed in a pot still. It is an all but useless decoration. That is better off on the shelf.

[bellybuster]

Most of us don't even have a thermometer on our stills. (pot stills)

Oh now you are really gona screw with his head.

haha, he'll come around, they always do.

don't get too bent tobben79, we really are just trying to help you out. Allot of us started with the same thoughts you have right now.

[tobben79]

I get it put that way o im stupid. Im sorry I did not think of it that way. Value da. So ok my question is then how do lg distillers automate. Price dosent matter throw it out.
I assume flow meeters with a variable controler of some sort I know now its off topic but there has to be away to perfect it on our level

[Prairiepiss]

Buy one pre made. But it ain't gona be a pot still.
Search for Istill.

[Buteo]

Wire your controller to control amperage or wattage and it will work. Forget about controlling temperature.
Adjust the amperage setpoint until you get the output you want. But why go to all the trouble when a simple controller with a setpoint knob will do the same thing. Is it starting to sink in yet?

[bellybuster]

most large distilleries do not automate to the point you're talking. If you do any tours you'll see most are very hands on with master distillers that have perfected their craft.

The most automation I've seen in the tours that I've been on are found on the fermenting side. repeatability of a product begins with controlling recipe and ferments.

[Odin]

I think you will see a lot of craft distillers starting to use automated distillation equipment ...

Automation, to the craft distiller, does not mean he's left out. On the contrary. What automation gives, is consistency and repetitiveness of that great recipe he so skillfully developed.

Regards, Odin.

[DAD300]

And at most huge commercial operations, you'll see a "trained" assistant, who has no idea, using a recipe for tons of grain and collecting barrels of uncut liquid.

[Chroi]

seems to me that a temp controller based on fluid output would be a step in the right direction

[S-Cackalacky]

seems to me that a temp controller based on fluid output would be a step in the right direction

There is already such a device. It's called a parrot. Other than measuring ABV, I don't know of any device that can analyze a liquid and determine the percent of each type of alcohol and other compounds in the liquid on a real-time basis. Such a device, even if it exists, would probably have an astronomical price. And, once you collected this information, what would you do with it. About the most you can control is the heat input and cooling water temp - not a highly technical process. If you run your still well, I don't see how such a device would greatly improve that process.

Just sayin',
S-C

[Chroi]

seems to me that a temp controller based on fluid output would be a step in the right direction

There is already such a device. It's called a parrot. Other than measuring ABV, I don't know of any device that can analyze a liquid and determine the percent of each type of alcohol and other compounds in the liquid on a real-time basis. Such a device, even if it exists, would probably have an astronomical price. And, once you collected this information, what would you do with it. About the most you can control is the heat input and cooling water temp - not a highly technical process. If you run your still well, I don't see how such a device would greatly improve that process.

Just sayin',
S-C

lol bingo, I completely agree with everything you said. The OP was asking about automating the heat source. Once he's understood that temp is irrelevant, he'll get the jokes

true automation in a lab setting is theortically very easy. It just doesnt translate to real world real well