What do YOU think is the best temp for fermenting?

[mash rookie]

In an effort to get my washes to finish a little more quickly I have been paying closer attention to the fermenting temps. I stopped by the local aquarium store and picked up a couple of stick on thermometers for my buckets. Yes they ferment faster at higher temps but how warm is too warm? I am making UJSSM using Crosby & Baker super start distillers yeast. This is from the parent site. It suggests that higher is better for whiskeys. What temps work best for you guys?

The temperatures that I refer to, BTW, for the fast turbo yeast fermentations are between 80 and 90F (27 and 33C). And, in Making Pure Corn Whiskey I recommend a fermentation temperature range between 70 and 90F (21 and 33C) for the production of whiskey.

Now, the production of beer, wine, and whiskey (or any other flavour-positive spirit, for that matter) is a different story, because the congener profile formed during fermentation will pervade through to the finished beverage. This is clearly true of beer or wine where no distillation is done, so whatever is formed is with the substrate for the duration of its life cycle. Flavour-positive spirits undergo distillation but since certain families of congeners are retained this makes such spirits sensitive to the congener make-up of the mash, unlike grain neutral where everything but the alcohol is stripped out.

I have done extensive experimentation with whiskey-mash fermentation, including numerous different temperature regimens. I've even lagered whiskey mashes with bottom-fermenting lager yeasts for as long as 13 weeks. It produced an unhopped corn/rye all-grain lager that I swear I could have bottled and conditioned and consumed as a very light (and cheap) lager, and I'm confident that it would have been delicious and refreshing. However, when I distilled it, it was completely insipid. It simply didn't have enough esters to give it a significant flavour. It was pleasant enough, but it just wasn't whiskey, although when I rectified it into grain neutral it was very clean.

All of this would have been due to the long lager fermentation where the yeast literally consumes esters, aldehydes, and fusel alcohols during the late-phase fermentation cycle.

I have found that the best whiskey and schnapps flavours are in fact formed during a hot, fast, brisk fermentation, and that long languishing fermentations (i.e. other than lagering) are the ones that produce the less desirable flavours. Of course, this point would be subject to personal preference.

Thanks guys,

Mash Rookie

[davidwh]

Hello mash,

I spent a lot of time on this over many runs trying to find the limit of my yeast. I still use the same Lowan brand off the shelf supermarket dried yeast today.

Started conservative with temps 22c - 26c, i use 100W aquirium heater in each fermenter and insulated to get it constant.
I've found over many trial and 2 errors that this std every day yeast will tollorate much higher temps and in my view, prefers it. In addtion to being more active with a near turbo like start, it survives better for generation 2 plus ferments...could be volume of yeast spawned? unsure.

I use UJSSM variant but i now start at 28c for a new first batch =ie new corn/rye= complete restart.

The second and following ferments I run at 30c ..seems yeast gets it act together on generation 2 plus

pushed to 33c = fail

pushed to 32c = lower output volume...put this down to yeast being stressed. Wash taste changed also.

With the quality yeast like your using u may find you can up scale these numbers.

btw I've never notice any impact on final post aired product taste running at these temps.

Hope it helps...experiment a little with a few mini washes perhaps

Enjoy!
davidwh

[Samohon]

My washes always stay between 24°C and 28°C, AG or Sugarhead, never had a stuck one yet...
Never used a turbo yeast, gets a real bad press here for a reason guy's...

[mash rookie]

Thanks Samohon.
I am interested in different opinions of temps and what works best for different people. Interesting that the article from the parent site speaks of different temps for different washes.

Yes, I know the rep of Turbo and have been there done that. Everybody is correct there.

It is funny how the parent site was much more accepting of it. But I do understand that as great as the parent site is and was, this is a whole another level of expertise. You guys have taken it to a level beyond.

Mash Rookie

[rubber duck]

It's not as clear cut as temp, you also have to factor in the strain of yeast your using and the other bugs in your mash.

What about using a lager strain at 70f? Might that not be interesting?

[mash rookie]

Yes RD, that is interesting.
Noted in the article I pasted above the author states he fermented a lager for 13 weeks. He doesn’t say but that must have been a cool ferment (70f) ?Cooler? He also noted that it had little flavor when distilled.

So I ask you. Why would you use a lager yeast at the low temperature? Would it tolerate a higher temp? Would it produce more flavors if used at a higher temp?

I am using a distillers yeast that I have read is pretty tolerant of higher temps and still working on just UJSSM. But quite interested in other yeasts and ferments.

As you know, I am still a “mash virgin” with some more reading to do before I am ready to make my first mash effort and likely I will be reaching out to you then to make sure my protocol is on track.

When you ferment your grain mashes do you use distillers yeast? Bread yeast? What temperatures do you maintain for them? Have you done a lager yeast?

Mash Rookie

[Bushman]

I am experimenting with this very topic. My last birdwatchers recipe I ran it between 25-30C, took almost a month to finish. Using the same recipe I am currently running it at between 30-32.5C. Will let people know if there is any difference!

[rubber duck]

A cool temp for lager yeast is 50f, if you bring that up to say 70f it starts producing some really interesting flavors. Go find a steam beer and you will see what I mean. Steam beer uses lager yeast at ale temps. Lager yeast will ferment well at lower temps and still produce the flavors we're looking for, it's not the ideal yeast for whiskey but it's a good compromise for me. I have a hard time holding the higher temps we need for whiskey.

I actually use a top fermenting ale yeast that does well from 50f to 70f and finishes at a very low fg, it's a really weird wild strain that was captured years ago. At 50f it's like a clean ale yeast, at 65-70f it gets a little funky, I never ferment at a temp high then 70f with anything so I try to find yeast that produces a lot of esters.

[mash rookie]

A cool temp for lager yeast is 50f, if you bring that up to say 70f it starts producing some really interesting flavors. Go find a steam beer and you will see what I mean. Steam beer uses lager yeast at ale temps. Lager yeast will ferment well at lower temps and still produce the flavors we're looking for, it's not the ideal yeast for whiskey but it's a good compromise for me. I have a hard time holding the higher temps we need for whiskey.

I actually use a top fermenting ale yeast that does well from 50f to 70f and finishes at a very low fg, it's a really weird wild strain that was captured years ago. At 50f it's like a clean ale yeast, at 65-70f it gets a little funky, I never ferment at a temp high then 70f with anything so I try to find yeast that produces a lot of esters.

I guess I hadn't considered that people would use a Lager or Ale yeast for whiskey.
When you use your Ale yeast that works well at the lower temps is it a slow ferment? Do you say it works well because it ferments at reasonable speed at cooler temps?

I didn't quite get it. So pushing the yeast causes esters that will affect flavor in a good way? You said funky. Are trying for funky to add flavor? I think I get that you are saying that different yeasts react differently to temperature and with knoledge you can manipulate the flavor somehow.

[Dnderhead]

esters can be good or bad depending what they are and what they are in.
they can add good flavor or not.esters is what give beer/wine much of
its flavor and yes can be used to your advantage in distilled spirits.

[rubber duck]

My yeast works well for my area, ( I can do lager beers in the middle of summer) most of the year if I used a standard ale strain I would be waiting till Christmas for it to finish. It's not a fast worker but it's an ale yeast that works moderately fast at lager temps.

Esters can be a good thing but as with everything else you can have to much of a good thing. Some lager yeast will produce a lot of esters if used at ale temps.

Now how about this, take 2 or 3 batches and ferment them with different yeast then distill them together. Say a lager yeast at a high temp producing a lot of ester and a clean neutral ale yeast. You could play around with the ratios until you got exactly what your looking for.

[mash rookie]

Yes RD, there seems to be endless possibilities. I guess that is where the art comes in.

Ian Smiley, notes in his book that the same grain mash fermented with three different yeasts will have three different flavor profiles.

In part, that is why I am still working with the same yeast. I still haven’t learned how to use it best or what its limitations are.

Have you used the AG whiskey yeasts? Sounds like they are intended to stretch total ABV by continued starch conversion at fermenting temperatures giving the yeast more sugars to work with as the ferment progresses.

Do they change the flavor profiles? On the surface it would seem they would be beneficial for mash or UJSSM type recipes.

It probably looks like Turbo yeast to the master distiller that is trying to get the perfect flavor profile and doesnt care about ABV.

Mash

[rubber duck]

My opinion on AG whiskey yeast is save your money.

If you want to get serious about yeast your going to need to learn about washing, acid washing, slanting, and storing. Your also going to need a stir plat and maybe a air stone and pump. At 7 dollars for a vial of liquid yeast it will get expensive, with a few tools and a little knowledge you can save a lot of money and do a lot of experimenting.

[mash rookie]

My opinion on AG whiskey yeast is save your money.

If you want to get serious about yeast your going to need to learn about washing, acid washing, slanting, and storing. Your also going to need a stir plat and maybe a air stone and pump. At 7 dollars for a vial of liquid yeast it will get expensive, with a few tools and a little knowledge you can save a lot of money and do a lot of experimenting.

Wow!! "Washing, acid washing, slanting, and storing" That’s way over my head. I am still trying to ferment a decent anything. (Actually starting to make a few decent things)

I will ask about yeast again in a year or two. Doing the best I can RD. I will let you know when I have a clue about the one yeast I am using.

I am a pretty quick study and usually have a good comprehension of mechanical and theory but there is much to learn about this craft.

It is funny though, some days I get up and just get some of the things you guys give up. It’s like little hidden clues.

Other times I wade through twenty five pages of BS looking for an answer or bits wisdom.

Thanks for your knowledge, efforts, and the patients that I observe you have with new members.

Kudos.

[rubber duck]

Man don't worry about all that stuff, it's something you will learn with time, right now you have the right idea learn the basics.

Here's what I suggest always run your ferments hotter then you would for beer. If the yeast packet says 65-70f run it at 75-80f.

Also try the Irish ale yeast or Scottish ale yeast, you can get at a brew shop in liquid form. It's expensive so learning so really basic farming techniques will save you a fortune.

[the_bard]

Just ordered an aquarium heater as I think my temps are a little low at 22C seems 30C is the sweet spot ?

Bard

[rtalbigr]

Thx for starting this thread mash rookie, very interesting topic. I've been researching yeast lately and am finding it to be a pretty complicated journey. I've been using the Crosby& Bakers DADA for some time now and try to hold my temps at 75-80F and my washes ferment out usually w/in 6-7 days. I've noticed that if the temps fall below 70F the ferment really slows down.

I used some Prestige Whiskey yeast about six months ago for a mash of 70% barley, 20% corn, and 10% wheat. Most of its aging in glass but some that I have consumed was a really nice drink, but I think I would have gotten pretty much the same with the Crosby&Baker, so I don't think the cost is justified.

I am currently getting set up to start working with different yeasts to see what I can get but like you I see this as a pretty involved process that gonna take a few years. I've started buying some different wine yeasts but haven't given much thought to the beer yeasts but with this thread, well, crap, more to think about. Problem is there's not much in the way of beer yeast locally so I have to order them.

My thought process so far is that some where in the middle of the temp range is going to be the best for each individual yeast so I've started compiling a list of different yeast and their characteristics and limitations. So it seems that with some yeast I'll be needin' to either insulate or privide heat and with some I'll just leave at room temps (~70F).

Anyway I'm subscribing this topic and I'll be interested in more info as you figure things out.

Big R

[KY1792]

I don't heat my house in the winter which stays at about 50F inside from January to March, so during that time I make hard cider and mead using a low temperature ale yeast. The rest of the year I use distillers yeast and try to keep it at or below 80F so it ferments cleaner as I usually only make neutrals.

Even in the cooler shoulder months I have never heated a ferment but rather just wrapped the bucket (top and bottom too) with R13 insulation, resisting all urges to peek until done.

[Tomer1]

Coming from wine making,
High temprature which put pressure on the yeast are a big no no and are only used in red wines were these are required to extract tannin and color from reds skins.
White wine is often fermented at 17c or lower,depending on the yeast.
I like to keep mind at 15c because thats the min temp I can run my wine fridge at during summer.

Higher tempratures mean pressured yeast meaning more higher alcohols (fusel alcohols) are produced,
These are usually unnoticable in wines fermented to reasonable alcohol levels (12-14%) but given that your effectivly "concentrating" alcohol during distilling you will end up with all thos in your heads and pre heads and may increase their accual volume=your getting less clean ethanol.

So my advice will be to keep it cool if you can, espacially when doing brandies or grape spirits in pot stills.

[fishoinc]

With winter coming on I seldom keep my home over 70 has any one ever designed a place to keep your mash above 70 , like a warming room of some kind?

[rad14701]

Please do a search before asking... There should be a current topic on the subject right now, or the very recent past... Many use brew belts or controlled/uncontrolled hot boxes...

[woodshed]

^^^
I posted to a thread a couple of weeks back about this very topic. Easy to do . Can be inexpensive with the right approach.

[fishoinc]

Ah Brew belt I am new at this and you have been very helpful Thank you . I did not know what to search for. I did do a search first but I guess I was not entering the right information.

Thanks again

[Bushman]

I do mine in a small bathroom downstairs in the winter and use and aquarium controller. Here is a link to my set-up.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=25475

[heartcut]

Before I installed HVAC in the garage a light bulb in the middle and some cardboard around the buckets worked well. Thought about a thermostat but never needed it.

[dakotasnake]

just my 2 cents, i have xpermented with different yeast but because of my location and the room i ferment in, the temps can fluctuate wildly from day to day. i cant really reliey on flavor profiles from yeast that should be good for whatever im doing. i have settled on a more or less nuetral yeast { ec-1118] to get consistancy and reliey on the grains for flavor. it may not be the beast way but it is consistant at least.

[shadylane]

Decided to resurrect this old post
" What do YOU think is the best temp for fermenting "
Mostly I use bakers yeast, so the ferment temp is around 85f
One thing I'm sure of, yeast likes warmth and a constant temp

[thecroweater]

as dnderhead touched on stressing yeasts makes esters and that is not always a bad thing. A lot was made of yeast strains but little on washes yet the wash is really a deciding factor, you would not run an UJSM the same temp as you might run a rum with the same yeast. The esters that suit rum might not suit a whiskey, there are plenty of blokes that deliberately ferment rum between 36 and 38'c , I doubt many want ferment whiskey at anything like that.

[HDNB]

funny this pops back up now.

I have been using bakers, then DADY, with cooler temps starting 100, finishing 72 (room temp) but have not been happy with it.

just recently i started upping my pitch temps. had a couple fails at over 118* (DADY, but it should have been ok based on the info at hand.) but at 113 i made some of the best whiskey to date...it still takes 7 days to finish at 72*, clearing on the 8th day.

the last experiment is a whiskey bourbon yeast called 917. i have been pitching at 0.5g/L at 113-115 so far i've done 5 strips and one spirit run and i finally feel like i'm actually making whiskey.
i'm just starting to mash up a storm again and using 115* pitch the ferment finishes in four days, with a temperature of 81* (room temp 72) and these smell friggin' awesome, I'm well on the road to another special spirit run from all indicators.

pressing an ear up against the ferment barrel on day 1 or 2...you should hear the roar!

*no additional heat, just cooling naturally. makes it's own warm.

[zapata]

Bery interesting approach and results. What volume washes there HDNB? I figure wash volume makes a big difference in how quickly a ferment cools when pitched that warm. And these are fermenters inside, like on a shelf or a carpet or wood floor? Or on a concrete floor like in a garage?