Foreshots

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growler
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Foreshots

Post by growler »

I have a valved reflux still with an offset head condenser as per
http://www.moonshine-still.com/page16.htm.
I took advice on this forum when I asked why my distillate had an off smell, and stopped using Turbo yeast, and used Lalvin EC1118 instead. The difference was truely remarkable. It was one of the 'tried and true' sugar wash recepies on here. :ebiggrin:

The questionI have now is how to get rid of what I think are the very high volatiles and aldehydes. Considering the still I have, what method would you recommend? What comes to my mind is, seperating the foreshots by either very slow, high reflux, or closing the reflux return valve to make it a "pot" still, and take off the foreshots before going back to reflux.
I have been putting the first 50ml into the metho bottle, but there is still foreshot flavour.
I distill 10-15 litres at a batch.

Thanks
growler
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Husker
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Re: Foreshots

Post by Husker »

There are a couple of ways to do this, you will have to experiement on your still to see which is the best.

First, you might run full reflux (100%, with takeoff closed fully), and reflux a while. Then crack the output valve fully open, and take everything for a short while (possibly a minute). Then close the valve and run 100% reflux for a while, then again crack the output 100% open for a short while. Then repeat until you have all heads/fores removed. What this does is concentrate the nasty stuff in the top of the column, and in the condenser. Then you try to pull as much of that off as you can. Then condense again, then pull it off.

The other way, is to run 100% reflux for a while, then just ever so slightly crack the output, and monitor this, until the fores/heads have been removed. What you are doing here is concentrating the heads at the top of column, and condenser, and then trying to slowly pull them off, keeping the top having them concentrated.


Some stills will pull a smaller amount using method 2. Some will pull a smaller amount using method 1. Part of the difference, is the amount of volume of material that is in the 'cycle area' of the still. The still you have, is far from optimal. In fact, the link to that web site is not wanted in these forums (I would LOVE to see that site go into web purgatory, but likely it will never happen), so i have disabled the 'magic-url' code within phpbb on your post. However, you have the still head that you have for now. So you will need to learn how best to drive it. I would bet the 100% reflux, then DUMP, then 100% then dump method will in the end, give you the smallest volume of fores/heads (i.e. larger amount in your body cut), but I can not say for sure. NOTE, my first column still was 'like' yours. I did a single valve still, where I simply had a tube running from about a cm above the bottom of the T cup. Dumping out 10mL at a time a couple of times, for fores, and then a few more times at a slightly larger volume would get rid of most of the heads. The rest of the heads would come off early on in the product, but I would keep smallish jars at first during this transition. Some of these jars would end up as heads, some would be OK, after they air out a day or so.

Also, 50mL for a 15L wash is VERY VERY small. It is about right for fore cut (stuff you do NOT want to put back in on subsequent runs), but much more than 50mL will be needed to be removed, to get past the heads. However, you can keep those heads, and put them into the next run you do. They are 'mostly' ethanol, with just a few traces of other bad stuff.

H.
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growler
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Re: Foreshots

Post by growler »

Husker

I am very new to this business, and I found it difficult to get advice before joining this site. So much crap on the net to wade through. At least you know what I am working with.
Thanks for the clues on the foreshots. I will try those methods you suggest. Having several jars is a great idea for seperating the cuts and keeping them for testing. I get a true 95% with the still, my column is 600mm, 2" copper, lagged, with s/s scrubbers. Found a bunch of copper scrubbers at a cheap prices for the next run. I would be interested to hear your opinion on what would be a better still than the one I built, as I am by no means committed to it if I can make a better one. I must admit that I was pretty pleased with it up until your comment, and now you have me wondering. :econfused: I did modify the condenser, making it much larger(300%), as I didn't think the one suggeted was big enough.
I also use a 20lt 2400Watt stainless electric urn as the boiler.
Thanks
growler
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Husker
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Re: Foreshots

Post by Husker »

The still you have, does work. Dont get me wrong. However, several things about it are far from ideal. In as a side note, it IS better than other designs at certain tasks.

cons.
  • cost, there are several fittings that are expensive, which must be obtained in 2" size (t's, caps, etc)
  • Off-balance. This is only a problem if the boiler is on the smallish side. Several still designs are not center balanced.
  • The plans call for 2 expensive needle valves. This can be worked around (I did so with my still).
  • The reflux return is not as high as it 'could' be, thus you lose out on some potential column height.
  • The build is more difficult than some, due to the many solder connections, in close proximity to each other, and all of those close solder joints being large diameter pipe and fittings.
  • An LM (liquid management) still requires frequent adjustments during the run. There are other types, which are easier to run (such as the VM). They are more of a 'set it and forget it' or at least 'set it and leave it alone' model.
However, since you already have built yours, and it is working well for you, then many of the cons are somewhat moot points.

One pretty big pro for this still design, is that it can be used very well, as a stripping still, i.e. to fast run, like a pot still to strip out the ethanol from a wash, to be re-run a second time. This is because of the design, where the condensation happens totally away from the column. Thus, you can run this still with almost no reflux at all, if the takeoff valve is large enough, AND if you insulate the column well. Many other column still designs, put the condenser right above the column 'inline', and then often have baffling that catches the reflux to take some off, and to return the rest. In these designs, even if you remove all of the reflux dripping off of the condenser, these baffles will cool below the condensation temp of the rising vapors. The vapor hitting the bottom of these baffles will condense (some of it will), and fall back into the column, thus you can not run these still types with '0%' reflux, like you can the offset head.


There are MANY still designs on this site. There are VM still, Flute stills (which are commercial bubble plate stills redesigned down to hobby size), there is the inline boka 'mini' which can be scaled up to 2" and works well, etc. Each of these still types, has their strengths (and weaknesses). However, since you have yours already done, then the money has been spent. Some of the biggest cons to your still is the initial cost, and difficulty of build. But you are already past that, so I would say to just keep using your still head. When you learn to drive it well, it will make very clean neutral. Mine does.

Pat yourself on the back, for not making that CM (Cooling Management) version of the still, especially the one with cooling tubes running through the lower and middle of the column). MANY folks show up here after they have made one. The still you have, while it is not optimal, is head and shoulders above THAT design.
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Mr.Brown
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Re: Foreshots

Post by Mr.Brown »

Husker wrote:Pat yourself on the back, for not making that CM (Cooling Management) version of the still, especially the one with cooling tubes running through the lower and middle of the column). MANY folks show up here after they have made one.
I'm one of those guys :oops: Found this site right about the time i was choking down my 1st batch of turbo.. Made a couple of mods (double wound coil, extra height, and some practice) & got it running pretty good. Hope to have a VM put together soon though. Just figured i'd own up to it
Anything i do or say here is purely hypothetical and for information gathering and sharing purposes only.
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Husker
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Re: Foreshots

Post by Husker »

there is nothing to be ashamed of mrbrown. Unfortunately, those plans are VERY high on the search engines. This site was one of the guilty ones for doing so much promoting of that other site, and the plans for many years. However, I have taken time to search for all links form our site, and scrubbing them.

Those 2 still designs 'do' work, but there are so many better plans. Someone coming here, who has only seen those plans and is proud of the still they have made, should not be ashamed. You or anyone else simply may not have known any better. The stills can be used, and then anyone can easily improve their hobby, and build a better still and learn how to drive it over time.

This hobby is something that 'should' be a life long hobby. Start where you can. Get better over time. Its all good.

H.
Hillbilly Rebel: Unless you are one of the people on this site who are legalling distilling, keep a low profile, don't tell, don't sell.
junkyard dawg
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Re: Foreshots

Post by junkyard dawg »

I'd like to offer a slightly different opinion.

That offset head performs like a champ. Many of the cons are really non issues.

cost? nah... Its not that expensive... In the big picture... really a non issue.
balance... not a problem at all.
needle valves are no problem.
reflux return... potentially could maybe at some theoretical hypothetical time might sort of have some kind of impact. Easily avoidable if you find this place before you build :thumbup:
It is not hard to build. :wtf:
adjustments... I'm surprised thats listed as a negative. It is not at all hard to run or learn.

Like every thing ever built, improvements are learned over time. You may want to make changes to yours over time, but in the meantime, be proud of what you have built. I know how good it performs... The versatility is a huge pro.

Good luck :thumbup:
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growler
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Re: Foreshots

Post by growler »

Thanks guys for your comments.
I went with the offset head design because of it's inherent versatility, and because where I live, (rural Australia) my water supply is sometimes inadequate. I drop a submersible pump into a water tank and recycle the water during the run, so I don't lose any. And pressure fluctuations in the cooling water are not as critical as with some other designs.
My main aim at the moment is to learn to drive the still.
bigwheel
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Re: Foreshots

Post by bigwheel »

Well sorry to hear the big boys bad mouthing our moonshine-still.com needle valve design because I have one coming from the plumber built according to specs when he gets sobered up etc. Trying to find a chunk of 3" copper pipe for the condenser shroud is about is tedious as trying to find a wise man or a virgin at the Christmas play in Noo Yawk City. Trouble is bumping into the how-to build it yourself moonshine still place before stumbling over this place. I dont understand why a person would need to do the foreshot dumping twice. What am I missing here? Thanks.
junkyard dawg
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Re: Foreshots

Post by junkyard dawg »

The best I can tell ya is that its sort of a sliding scale...

You will get a lot of fores the first run... But there will still be some that stay around. Thats the nature of the beast.

The second run will take a lot more off...

The third will get even more...

This is why you see vodkas that are distilled 5 or 6 times. The goal is very pure... Even with a reflux still, there is great benefit to doing multiple runs.

Oh, and Ya don't need 3" for that condenser. make it all outta 2!
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bentstick
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Re: Foreshots

Post by bentstick »

Bigwheel dont take it as bad mouthing,just some chat on pros and cons, as with any design here there can be improvements and all still heads need to be learned and in some cases modified to do what you want them to do! All is good :thumbup:
It is what you make it
growler
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Re: Foreshots

Post by growler »

bigwheel

My still is 2" all the way. I did make the condensing coil 3 times longer than the design coz I felt just a few turns was nowhere near enough. Gotta go, it is about to start condensing.

growler
growler
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Re: Foreshots

Post by growler »

I ran my still yesterday after taking on-board suggestions, mainly Husker's.
I did a slow take-off at 1 drop per minute into 4 bottles of about 50ml each. The spirit smelt good at about the 200ml point, and I then increased the take off to 100ml per 4.5 minutes. This kept the temperature at the top of the column stable at 76C. When the temp started to climb at the end, at 77C it was starting to smell a bit taily, so I cut it then. At 78C it was not nice.
The main cut was so clean there is no need to use activated carbon etc. Ready to drink.
The moonshine still works fine. Operator error is the thing.
Thanks for all the advice. :clap:
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