This recipe also calls for pulverizing them (in a blender), and I've read that it takes forever for smashed banana to clear in a wash. Maybe that's just the way it goes, it'd be worth it for a good, strong banana flavor.NZChris wrote:I doubt that roostershooter7's dehydration step is needed. Maybe pulverize a whole banana, then put it in some mash in a vessel that you can control at around 140F and try to work out how much it can convert by adding more mash until failure
Banana peels
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- raketemensch
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Re: Banana peels
- der wo
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Re: Banana peels
You know and I know that enzymes don't use up at room temperature.Bagasso wrote:I was talking about S-Cackalacky's experiment. The reason it didn't work isn't because the enzymes were used up.der wo wrote:Oh sorry, I see. I talked about S-Cackalackys experiment with 155F and you about raketenmenschs plan.
But you quoted my post about it.der wo wrote:I agree but I didn't write, they are being used up.
Yes I quoted you, I didn't attack you, I quoted you. And only to add, not to criticize something. We agree in all important points.
And I understand your intention. The false thinking, you need x amount amylase for y starch ist still common here.
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Re: Banana peels
Must have gotten lost in translation.der wo wrote:I quoted you. And only to add, not to criticize something.
Yes, it is really a question of time.
According to this abstract
Bananas contained 1% starch when fully ripe and none when overripe, whereas plantains contained about 9% starch when fully ripe and 3% when overripe (composition expressed as percentage fresh weight).
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Re: Banana peels
That was my point when I said that either he didn't use enough peels or he didn't leave it long enough. From what I was told by one of the more experienced members here is that enzymes don't get used up, they convert one starch molecule and when that is done they move to another, so technically one enzyme can convert an enfinent amount of starch molecules. The formula used here, and the recommendation of having at least 30 DP is what it will take to convert the amount of grain that you are using in 1 hours time. So if you are using less than 30 DP then it will still work, it will just take more time. Also the temp. will affect the time frame, 150-155 is the optimum temp. for the enzymes to work fastest, but they still do there job at lower temp. just at a slower pace.
So what we really need to know here is what is the DP of a banana peel, so we can figure out how many peels we would need to reach the optimum DP of 30.
So what we really need to know here is what is the DP of a banana peel, so we can figure out how many peels we would need to reach the optimum DP of 30.
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- der wo
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Re: Banana peels
According to the result of S-Cackalackys experiment, I fear we need 100% banana peels for 30 DP.
But is this a practical question? What is the plan? To replace malted barley?
And in my practical knowledge, it's no fun to reduce the DP more and more. Also if you look at the tried and true AG recipes, it's not only me:
-NChooch's Carolina Bourbon: 7 pounds of cracked corn and 3 pounds of 6-row malted barley. = 33% malt, 53 DP (6-row has 160 DP)
-Jimbo's Easy 1/2 Barrel Bourbon: 22 lbs cracked corn OR 16 lbs corn meal and 5 lbs wheat malt and 3 lbs 6 row, milled (or 2 row, or use 8 lbs wheat malt total). = 27-33% malt, 43-53 DP
Much more DP than the big companies use, their bourbons only have 8-14% malt, 13-22 DP. No one does this here, or perhaps I overlooked it, sorry. And ok, we could discuss (again), if the big companies add enzymes, or about the higher DP of "Gibb"-malt (anyone has exact specifications?).
For my bourbon I use 20% 2-row malt (only has 140 DP, 6-row is not available in my country), so I have 28 DP, and I needed a few attempts with different temps, premashing and using up a little of the malt at higher temps until I finally achieved it to get all the starch into alcohol (FG 1.000). But I don't think I want try even less malt.
But is this a practical question? What is the plan? To replace malted barley?
And in my practical knowledge, it's no fun to reduce the DP more and more. Also if you look at the tried and true AG recipes, it's not only me:
-NChooch's Carolina Bourbon: 7 pounds of cracked corn and 3 pounds of 6-row malted barley. = 33% malt, 53 DP (6-row has 160 DP)
-Jimbo's Easy 1/2 Barrel Bourbon: 22 lbs cracked corn OR 16 lbs corn meal and 5 lbs wheat malt and 3 lbs 6 row, milled (or 2 row, or use 8 lbs wheat malt total). = 27-33% malt, 43-53 DP
Much more DP than the big companies use, their bourbons only have 8-14% malt, 13-22 DP. No one does this here, or perhaps I overlooked it, sorry. And ok, we could discuss (again), if the big companies add enzymes, or about the higher DP of "Gibb"-malt (anyone has exact specifications?).
For my bourbon I use 20% 2-row malt (only has 140 DP, 6-row is not available in my country), so I have 28 DP, and I needed a few attempts with different temps, premashing and using up a little of the malt at higher temps until I finally achieved it to get all the starch into alcohol (FG 1.000). But I don't think I want try even less malt.
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Re: Banana peels
I agree with you derwoo, less DP is not fun but will work, just at a slower pace, and of coarse more DP is going to make conversion faster and easier. Perhaps conversion is not the only reason for the amount of malted grains used in the recipes that you posted, but maybe it was also done for the flavor.
I think that what this experiment and discussion has proven is that banana peels are not a good source of enzymes for conversion.
I think that what this experiment and discussion has proven is that banana peels are not a good source of enzymes for conversion.
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Re: Banana peels
My banana peel experiment was performed out of my own newbie curiosity. The only thing I really gleaned from the experiment was that banana peels either don't convert grain starch, or I didn't use enough of it. In either case, it was inconclusive at best. After reading the other thread link from a previous post and the discussion here in this thread, it could be that the best use for banana peels is in the protocol for producing a better banana brandy. I'm still not convinced that there's any flavor advantage to leaving the peels in the ferment. It would be interesting to see someone pursue a banana brandy using a banana peel conversion protocol to increase the sugars - and possibly flavor.
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Re: Banana peels
some reading I had done years ago when I started making wine that said to cut the neck and tail end off and slice the bananas up with the peels about 1/4" thick or so, because the peels contain a lot of flavors, that's what I've always done. I use a step mash protocol, and by the time I'm done the fruit is a slurry. it does make a hell of a cap (fair warning) my wine always came out nice so I do the same when I make brandy. I never kept good notes on this but I think I used about 20lbs for 5 gallons of must.
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Re: Banana peels
Firewater, are you using a protocol to take advantage of the enzymes in the peels? That is, are you allowing further ripening to produce more sugar? Do you add anything (i.e., water) to the must? Sounds like you have some good experience with using bananas. It would be nice to see a complete detailed recipe in "Recipe Development" with a link posted in this thread.
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Re: Banana peels
How practical something is depends on availability.der wo wrote:According to the result of S-Cackalackys experiment, I fear we need 100% banana peels for 30 DP.
But is this a practical question? What is the plan? To replace malted barley?
Where I live I can get bananas for US$0.10/lb but I can't get malted barley.
Plain barley, with no info about type or DP, costs $US2.00/lb.
If I was to have something shipped in, it may as well be amalyse.
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Re: Banana peels
I'm sorry. Isn't there a brewery, where you could ask?Bagasso wrote:Where I live I can get bananas for US$0.10/lb but I can't get malted barley.
But so you are our man, who could do all the experimentation for us: Banana wash with or without the peels, ripe or green bananas, aging on tropical woods...
I did once a banana wash, it's not one of my favourites, but interesting taste, "banana without sweetness" and a little citrus. I'm sure with better stuff than the imported unripe quality you can achieve a valuable drink.
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Re: Banana peels
the wine recipe I followed said that cooking helps to get the flavor out of the peels, I just did it step mash style because I thought it might help with the enzymes (I can't say for sure) I also let the bananas get as ripe as possible before I use them. I'm gonna be busy this week with a bike rally, but when I get back I'll make a batch and document everything I do and link this thread.S-Cackalacky wrote:Firewater, are you using a protocol to take advantage of the enzymes in the peels? That is, are you allowing further ripening to produce more sugar? Do you add anything (i.e., water) to the must? Sounds like you have some good experience with using bananas. It would be nice to see a complete detailed recipe in "Recipe Development" with a link posted in this thread.
Moonshine.... American as apple pie & it's part of our heritage, history & culture.
Re: Banana peels
No, until about 12 years ago there was only 1 brewery in the country. They were not about to share anything. Now there are two but things remain the same.der wo wrote:I'm sorry. Isn't there a brewery, where you could ask?
There are a few brewpub operations creeping out of hiding but, they are in the same situation, everything has to be shipped in from the US.
Well, I'm living in a tiny apartment but I guess I could experiment with small batches but I doubt anyone would want to do a 24 mash when they have high DP grains or enzymes available.But so you are our man, who could do all the experimentation for us: Banana wash with or without the peels, ripe or green bananas, aging on tropical woods...
Actually, I had looked at bananas and read that they are hard to work with, flavor is lost during distillation and they are low in sugar so there didn't seem much point going in that direction.
Lately, there is this thing called sugar bite that everyone keeps mentioning and I figured that I don't have any way to compare unless I do an all grain. Which made me look around for alternatives to barley.
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Re: Banana peels
If that's the case, I'd have no qualms at all about pasteurizing the mash and drinking it as-is, maybe with some added sugar, honey or agave nectar. An 8% alcohol banana drink? Screw beer, count me in.Bagasso wrote:Actually, I had looked at bananas and read that they are hard to work with, flavor is lost during distillation and they are low in sugar so there didn't seem much point going in that direction.
Re: Banana peels
Just found this thread again and this post got me in the experimenting mood.raketemensch wrote:If that's the case, I'd have no qualms at all about pasteurizing the mash and drinking it as-is, maybe with some added sugar, honey or agave nectar. An 8% alcohol banana drink? Screw beer, count me in.
Just put down a 5% banana mash (1.5kg banana puree w/o peel topped to 3L) and it is as thick as a milkshake. Hope it thins out, a lot or maybe it won't matter.
Hmmm, chewy alcohol.
ETA: Just a word of caution. My 3L of banana mash just overflowed in a 5L pitcher.
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Re: Banana peels
<blurp>Bagasso wrote:ETA: Just a word of caution. My 3L of banana mash just overflowed in a 5L pitcher.
Gonna have a reeeeeally thick skin on top. No pun intended.
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Re: Banana peels
I transferred it into a wide/low 8L container. It filled that up as well.raketemensch wrote:<blurp>
Gonna have a reeeeeally thick skin on top. No pun intended.
It was a solid cap from top to bottom (4"). I had to whip the co2 out of the foam to settle it back down about 5 or 6 times every 45 minutes.
5 hours or so after pitching I had about half inch of liquid on the bottom and the cap seemed to have stopped growing.
Glad I didn't toss it out but I'm hoping all the manipulation didn't introduce something funky.
Re: Banana peels
Oh,look!! Its a hole in the space-time contuum!!
Re: Banana peels
Update time.
Seems like my wash got a bit of a lacto infection. Better prepping would avoid that.
So, I placed it in a kitchen colander with 1/16 inch holes and only got about 1.25L of the original 3L to drip through.
Sparging might be a better idea.
Seems like my wash got a bit of a lacto infection. Better prepping would avoid that.
So, I placed it in a kitchen colander with 1/16 inch holes and only got about 1.25L of the original 3L to drip through.
Sparging might be a better idea.
Re: Banana peels
Alright, I let the banana hooch clear and siphoned the relatively clear wash into a pitcher and stuck it in the fridge.
Once cold I poured a glass and it could use a little sweetener. It's a little tart and very thick. I'd say about as thick as milk but with a mouth feel that is a bit slick, maybe like oatmeal. I wouldn't say slimy but it is pretty close. Close enough to be a deal breaker.
Will definitely try again, using the peels this time, cutting back on banana and adding panela, molasses or brown sugar to thin it out and add to the flavor.
Once cold I poured a glass and it could use a little sweetener. It's a little tart and very thick. I'd say about as thick as milk but with a mouth feel that is a bit slick, maybe like oatmeal. I wouldn't say slimy but it is pretty close. Close enough to be a deal breaker.
Will definitely try again, using the peels this time, cutting back on banana and adding panela, molasses or brown sugar to thin it out and add to the flavor.
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Re: Banana peels
Chicken shit? Can't say I have ever seen this being used. I'll take this as a joke but am none the less curious...S-Cackalacky wrote:Hard to say if you would or not. People put some pretty weird stuff in their mash/wash - tomato paste, chicken shit, etc. You would think some of those things would foul the taste, but apparently they don't.Black Eye wrote:Might get some funky flavor. Banana peels taste like shit. Primates don't even eat them.
I've even seen a few rum recipes where a couple of banana peels were added. I don't know the reason for this, but since there's no starch conversion necessary, I would assume it must be for the flavor. Course this might not carry over very well, flavor wise, to a whiskey recipe.
Just sayin',
S-C