Banana peels

[S-Cackalacky]

I'm building a pot still, but it's a very slow-go due to money issues. So, to fill the time I've been doing a lot of reading about recipes, fermenting, mashing, etc. At some point I became somewhat intrigued with the idea of banana peels potentially containing the enzyemes necessary to do starch to sugar conversion.

I've done some reading on the subject, but didn't find a lot of definitive information. Seems that some folks may have tried it, but I'm not sure if their experiments were entirely successful. Question is - could someone successfully do an AG mash using banana peels as the enzyme for conversion, or maybe a banana peel/beano combination?

Also, in what form would you use it - that is, fresh scrapings of the white part of an over-ripe peel, dehydrated scrapings, or even let them dry til they are completely black and hard and grind them up? And, would they be added to the mash after cooking the grain and reducing the heat to 155 degrees F as you normally do with a malted grain?

Just curious,
S-C

[Black Eye]

Might get some funky flavor. Banana peels taste like shit. Primates don't even eat them.

[S-Cackalacky]

Might get some funky flavor. Banana peels taste like shit. Primates don't even eat them.

Hard to say if you would or not. People put some pretty weird stuff in their mash/wash - tomato paste, chicken shit, etc. You would think some of those things would foul the taste, but apparently they don't.

I've even seen a few rum recipes where a couple of banana peels were added. I don't know the reason for this, but since there's no starch conversion necessary, I would assume it must be for the flavor. Course this might not carry over very well, flavor wise, to a whiskey recipe.

Just sayin',
S-C

[Dnderhead]

technically possible but i thank the enzymes are so low it take a lot of them.
why not just malt grain?

[rad14701]

Banana peels provide enzymes as has been discussed recently...

[S-Cackalacky]

technically possible but i thank the enzymes are so low it take a lot of them.
why not just malt grain?

Well, thanks Mr. Dnder! I guess that would be why I don't find a lot of posts touting the miraculous properties of banana peels. I respect your opinion and will take that as a definitive answer.

So, why do you think some people are putting them in rum washes? Is it for the flavor, or are they just being ignoranuses? I would think the banana fruit itself would impart a more desirable flavor than the peel. As Black Eye says, "Banana peels taste like shit.".

Just sayin',
S-C

[S-Cackalacky]

Banana peels provide enzymes as has been discussed recently...

Rad, I missed your post - guess we were posting at the same time. The posts I found with an HD Google search pretty much indicated what you said. However, I don't remember anyone really following through with posts about the outcome of their experiments. Do you agree with what Dnderhead said about the amount of enzyme present in the peels?

S-C

[Dnderhead]

all plants have enzymes but most just enough for converting them selves.
others like grain have more than enough and can convert others as well.

[S-Cackalacky]

Banana peels provide enzymes as has been discussed recently...

all plants have enzymes but most just enough for converting them selves.
others like grain have more than enough and can convert others as well.

Well guys - does it or doesn't it? Just as in all the other threads I've read on the subject, there doesn't seem to be any consensus. The earliest thread I remember reading was around 2010. Surely after 3 years someone has done a definitive experiment.

I'm up for trying new things. I guess I'll just need to finish my build and try it myself. I'll check back in on this subject maybe six or eight months from now.

Just sayin',
S-C

[S-Cackalacky]

I'm up for trying new things. I guess I'll just need to finish my build and try it myself. I'll check back in on this subject maybe six or eight months from now.

OK, so what the hell - I went ahead and tried a small scale experiment. I brought one quart of water to a boil and slowly stirred in one cup of corn flour. I cooked it to a fairly heavy poridge consistency. I cooked it on low heat for approximately 30 minutes and removed it from the heat.

I scraped the peel of one over-ripe banana and added half to the mash once it cooled to about 150 degrees. I tasted the mash before adding the scrapings and it had a bland corn taste with a slightly bitter after-taste. After adding the scrapings, I covered the pot and returned it to the warm burner (turned off) and left it for approximately 1/2 hour. There was no change in consistency and no discernable change in taste.

I added the remaining half of the banana peel scrapings and stirred it in. I fired up the stove burner for a few seconds, turned it off and returned the covered pot to the warm burner. I waited another 1/2 hour and found no change in consistency or taste.

So, unless I did something terribly wrong, I'm assuming it doesn't work. I'm not sure I really proved anything with this experiment. I didn't have any malted grain or commercially available enzymes to do a side-by-side test.

Anyway, I never tried making a mash before in my life, so I'm not sure this really proves anything. Maybe someone with a little more experience could do a more conclusive test.

Just sayin',
S-C

[rad14701]

It may be possible that the over-ripe banana had already used some or all of the available enzymes to convert the banana starches to sugars, which is why over-ripe bananas taste sweeter than those still greenish to yellow... I think you want the peel when the banana is yellow with just a hint of brown spots beginning to form...

[S-Cackalacky]

It may be possible that the over-ripe banana had already used some or all of the available enzymes to convert the banana starches to sugars, which is why over-ripe bananas taste sweeter than those still greenish to yellow... I think you want the peel when the banana is yellow with just a hint of brown spots beginning to form...

What the hell Rad - having OCD, there's no way in hell I can't NOT do it again. Guess I'll be off to the grocery store tomorrow for a fresh batch of bananas and maybe some corn grits.

Just sayin',
S-C

[S-Cackalacky]

Well, guess I'm done with this. I did a second test with about the same results as last time. I used "Indian Head" yellow cornmeal instead of corn flour and one banana peel from a banana that was yellow with just hints of brown spots. I used 2 quarts of water and 1 cup of the cornmeal. I cooked it for about 45 minutes, waited for the temp to drop to around 150 degrees F, and added the scrapings from the banana peel. There was no noticable change in flavor (not sweet). And, I also didn't get the liquification that others have described when the starch converts to sugar. So, unless I just totally screwed up the process, I don't think the banana peel enzyme thing works.

Because my still build won't be finished for at least a few months, I think I would like to do a few more experiments with mashing using malted grains. What I'll probably do is look for a simple AG recipe in the "Tried and True" section. I would like to carry it all the way through fermentation and try to save the results to run through the still when it's finished.

Question is - If I'm successful with a completed fermentation, can I let it settle, rack if off, and save the wash by freezing it in one gallon jugs? Would plastic milk jugs be OK since it's a wash?

Please advise,
S-C

[raketemensch]

Thanks for doing those experiments, S-C. I was considering doing almost that exact same thing myself. I've got a couple of older Mr. Beer 2.5 gallon fermenters that I'm using for experimental washes, and I'm going to use one for bananas as soon as my EC-1118 comes in.

I guess that the amylase enzymes in the peels get eaten up when the bananas ripen and brown up. Which, in the end, works out for us, since it's creating the sugars in the bananas for us. I'm going to pick up 8 or so bananas tomorrow to get them browning a bit, that should be enough for a small batch, I figured I'd go with:

8 lbs bananas
2.5 lbs sugar
2 gallons water
1 tbsp. tomato paste

I'm not sure if the tomato paste is necessary, I'm not in a hurry on this. I've also got some 20-20-20 orchid food here (urea-free) that I might use instead, or skip entirely.

Two years later, how are your banana experiments going?

[Bagasso]

According to wiki

Chemically, enzymes are like any catalyst and are not consumed in chemical reactions, nor do they alter the equilibrium of a reaction.

Just thought I'd put that out there since a couple of people are saying that the enzymes might be used up in ripening the bananas.

ETA: According to this abstract

Amylase was quite active up to 62°C but rapidly lost activity above this temperature.

That would be 143º F. Don't know what difference 150ºF would have made.

[NZChris]

The sweetest sugariest banana I've ever tasted was on the sand on a beach in the middle of summer. Completely black and cooking in the midday sun.

It's easy enough to replicate. Get a few hands of spotty bananas and hold them at 62°C/143º F. Take one every so many hours and do a taste test and a starch test until you know how long it takes to get maximum conversion.

Then report back

[der wo]

Chemically, enzymes are like any catalyst and are not consumed in chemical reactions, nor do they alter the equilibrium of a reaction.

If you heat up to speed up the reaction, because you don't want to wait the whole summer for conversion, they will degenerate while mashing.

That would be 143º F. Don't know what difference 150ºF would have made.

S-Cackcalacky did a 1/2-hour-rest. For this short duration 150°F is ok. But the point is not the missing sugar taste, but he did not even notice any liquification. Liquification happens fast and also at higher temperatures. Provided the enzymes in the banana peels are the same as the ones in malted grains.

EDIT: So I think S-Cackalackys experiment was right, banana peals don't have much diastatic power.

[OBX Phantom]

Like has been said banana peels don't have an abundance of enzymes, so maybe 1 peel just isn't enough to convert 1 quart of corn starch in 30 min. Perhaps if more than 1 was added, or it was held at temp for a longer period of time it might work.

[der wo]

But because not even any liquification started, means, that he was far away of getting any fermentable sugars.
So in my opinion don't try it with 2 or 10 peals and mashing 5 hours at 140F or lower. My evaluation is: You would have to fill the half bucket with peals for success. And that would have an effect on taste for sure.

[S-Cackalacky]

I was almost embarrassed to read this after all this time. I was very much a newbie at the time the OP was written. Please take my experimentation with a grain of salt - nothing really conclusive about it.

Maybe the best use for banana peels is to sweeten up bananas. NZChris makes an interesting observation with his beach anecdote. It might be an interesting experiment to start a banana brandy process by laying the bananas out in the sun, or on a baking sheet in the oven, for a few hours to turn black (and sweet).

[raketemensch]

I've seen banana bread recipes where people have taken them fully yellow and baked them in the peels at 300 degrees for 30-40 minutes and ended up with soft, sweet bananas. To me it feels like the sugars would process better over time on their own, but I'm as much a scientist as I am a brain surgeon. Which is also a scientist. See how dumb?

[Bagasso]

If you heat up to speed up the reaction, because you don't want to wait the whole summer for conversion, they will degenerate while mashing.

Yes but, people where talking about bananas at room temp.

So I think S-Cackalackys experiment was right, banana peals don't have much diastatic power.

I agree but it is because of the small amounts of enzymes in the peels and not because they are being used up.

It seems to be a matter of time because a banana sitting in a pantry will convert but, it takes days.

[der wo]

Oh sorry, I see. I talked about S-Cackalackys experiment with 155F and you about raketenmenschs plan.

I agree but it is because of the small amounts of enzymes in the peels and not because they are being used up.

I agree but I didn't write, they are being used up.

It seems to be a matter of time because a banana sitting in a pantry will convert but, it takes days.

Theoretically. I think at room temperature the grain plus banana peels mash would faster go moldy than get converted.

[raketemensch]

Theoretically. I think at room temperature the grain plus banana peels mash would faster go moldy than get converted.

I'm picking up 9 bananas tomorrow, and will put them all on wax paper, then set 3 on a windowsill in the sunlight, 3 on the countertop in the kitchen, and 3 in the oven as listed above.

We'll see which come out sweetest. Hard to tell sometimes, since each piece of fruit is different, so I'm doing 3 of each. I wish I had a wort refractometer.

[Bagasso]

Oh sorry, I see. I talked about S-Cackalackys experiment with 155F and you about raketenmenschs plan.

I was talking about S-Cackalacky's experiment. The reason it didn't work isn't because the enzymes were used up.

I agree but I didn't write, they are being used up.

But you quoted my post about it.

Theoretically. I think at room temperature the grain plus banana peels mash would faster go moldy than get converted.

The mash would be pasteurized so, if you keep a lid on it, there shouldn't be any way for it to go moldy.

ETA: Maybe approach it like sake, where the koji converts at the same time that yeast ferments.

[NZChris]

There is a very interesting post by roostershooter7 here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=28110

[S-Cackalacky]

Theoretically. I think at room temperature the grain plus banana peels mash would faster go moldy than get converted.

I'm picking up 9 bananas tomorrow, and will put them all on wax paper, then set 3 on a windowsill in the sunlight, 3 on the countertop in the kitchen, and 3 in the oven as listed above.

We'll see which come out sweetest. Hard to tell sometimes, since each piece of fruit is different, so I'm doing 3 of each. I wish I had a wort refractometer.

Not so sure it's the sunlight, but the heat from the sun that causes the conversion. Outside in the sunlight on a warm day might work better. Much like warm optimum temps cause enzymes to perform better conversions in grain mashes.

For the ones you put in the oven, I wouldn't go much over 150 dF, else you'll just be cooking them and the enzymes won't work. And, if you plan to ferment them, be sure to remove the peels - they can be bitter and that could carry over to the final product.

[S-Cackalacky]

There is a very interesting post by roostershooter7 here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=28110

Interesting - I don't remember ever reading that thread before.

[raketemensch]

There is a very interesting post by roostershooter7 here: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=28110

There are SO many different paths for bananas that it's getting crazy. I've got some amylase here leftover from the makgeoli experiment (very tasty), various bits of DME sitting around, and of course tons of sugar, but what I'm most interested in seeing is what I could get out of pure bananas by themselves.

From that post:

Banana peels actually contain quite a lot of fermentable sugars themselves. The amylase is predominantly alpha with a bit of beta. Sounds a bit like sweet potato peel in these respects. I would say it's definitely worth trying to ferment cut up banana peels if you have access to a lot of them. They would probably convert a bit of extra starch along the way, given sufficient Calcium ions for the alpha amlyase to work.

Where would the calcium come from, added nutrients?

[NZChris]

I doubt that roostershooter7's dehydration step is needed. Maybe pulverize a whole banana, then put it in some mash in a vessel that you can control at around 140F and try to work out how much it can convert by adding more mash until failure.