How to solder (beginners guide)

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Husker
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How to solder (beginners guide)

Post by Husker »

This was posted on yahoo Distillers forum, by Geoff Burrows, and is a VERY nice intro into proper methods of soldering copper. Pintoshine also posted a nice howto on soldering rivited sheet 304 SS, but since he posts here, I will let him post it. It might not be bad for him to post as a followup message to this thread.

H.
Last edited by Husker on Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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How to solder Copper

Post by Husker »

Hi Everyone,

I've seen from reading the forum, that on and off people tend to have a degree of difficulty when soldering for the first time or even just soldering in general. For those that fit into this category (and don't want, or like to admit it). If you follow this guide you will/should achieve a reasonable successful job I'm an ex-plumber and soldering is no big secret as long as you follow and understand certain basic facts, methods and rules used to solder successfully.

For those who already know how to solder skip this posting. This is really for those who feel intimidated by the art of soldering. It really is easy. I've only got the use of one hand and I can still solder OK. I just a have a lot of preparation to do these days when I solder.

There are 4 areas we need to look at, they are:-
(1) The metal
(2) The solder
(3) The heat source
(4) The flux

Let's take each one separately and get to know how each one will affect us in soldering.

1. The metal i.e. copper. Copper like any metal will corrode in its own certain way when exposed to the atmosphere. (Iron or steel being ferrous will rust and turn red. Aluminium will turn powdery white and crumple) copper if left to its on devices, on a roof covered in copper will turn a beautiful bright, light, almost florescent green and stop at that coating. And in order to solder copper, this corrosion must be removed back to the base copper metal. (Remember to always keep your work fluxed, clean and shining that's the big soldering secret). Thankfully, the copper pipe we get from the stores has only the initial stages of surface corrosion started and this can easily be removed with wire wool or emery cloth, but I find coarse wire wool is best to use. Clean the copper and all surfaces to be soldered, until they shine brightly and set them aside and don't touch them with moist sweaty hands. As the salt/grease in the sweat will turn to carbon when heat is applied, not good for soldering (solder won't stick to carbon)

2. Solder. Use new relatively clean bright looking lead free solder. LEAD FREE is most IMPORTANT for the purpose we intend to use it for

3. Heat source. As a heat source you really need a butane or propane torch/burner with at least a ½" nozzle. (I think even that is very under powered)

4. Flux. A general all round soldering flux is as good as any these days, they should all work well. The flux is pretty inert when you apply it at room temperature, but when heat is applied the flux will become very corrosive and will bite into and really clean the surface of the copper, especially when it has reached 100 degrees C plus, and the flux will make the solder really flow onto the copper surface and join where the flux has cleaned it. The flux can be easily burnt, by the torch flame, and turn to carbon which is not good for us. (more about this later)

Soldering Procedure.

1. Copper fitting usually comes in 2 types, end feed or solder ring. End feed by its very name means you feed the solder in via the end of the fitting and pipe join line. All new solder integral solder ring fittings have an integral ring of lead free solder inside and this will flow in a perfect ring around the join when they are cleaned fluxed and heat is applied. They cost more but if you are unsure about your joints, this is a good way to go to get good joins. I shall deal with end feed fittings for this topic.

2. Next cut, "dry fit" and check and clean all your pipes and fittings that you intend to solder

3. Flux them all up and smearing enough flux inside the female fitting and on the part of the pipe that will be going inside the fitting, (apply the same amount of flux to the copper parts as you would antiseptic cream to a cut finger) I personally apply a lot more. But that's just my preference

4. Unroll a length of solder. A general guide as to how much each join takes is on (a 2" pipe). If you bend or kink the solder about 2 ½" from the end and when that has feed into the join that should be plenty in there. (Slightly more than the pipe diameter whatever join you are making. The same rule applies whether its ¼" or 6" it's a good general guide)

5. Now assemble and set your pipe and fittings, light the torch/burner, and with your stick of solder at the ready. (For a 2" column pipe) Apply heat first to the pipe about 3 "away from the join on the top, the sides and the underneath as equally as you can until you see the flux sizzling at the join at least.

6. Then do the same on the fitting but not as long on the fitting. And certainly not on the join line if you can help it. (because that will burn the flux)

7. If you get too close to the join the flux will burn go brown and then black and carbonize. (burnt carbonized flux will ruin a good join) The trick is to be patient and let the heat move along to the join from about the 3" away from the join and then let this heat move into the fitting and out to your solder stick. So be careful and watch out for this, because solder won't stick to carbonized flux on the pipe or join. If this happens to me. (Which it sometimes still does) I have a long stiff hog hair artist brush dipped in flux and I swish this over the join and it cleans the old carbon off and leaves it nice and bright again for the solder.

8. Things are now happening fast. Direct the heat away from the pipe and fitting. Now with your solder stick touch it to the top of the join line. Be patient and wait, let the heat get through into the solder. It should soften and squelch onto the join. Now take the solder away and apply more heat in the same sequence as before. The solder you applied will likely get sucked into the fitting. But don't panic, continue your heating.

9. Now apply more solder and wait again, it will suddenly soften and run straight into the join. Now apply more heat to the fitting this will draw all the solder to the kink mark on your solder stick into the join. Solder will run and get drawn up into and evenly between the two copper surfaces. Just the same way sap on a tree will get drawn up between the bark and the wood evenly. This is called capillary action.

10. If there is any obvious gaps, heat and feed more solder in and just flash the heat across it just enough until it smoothes nicely between pipe and fitting. (Don't get hypnotized by the flame and have it pointing at the flux and end up burning it because it is so very easy to do) Back off with the heat and solder stick, and again be patient and let it cool enough for the solder to set (because the join and fitting can and will move if you are not careful) and that's a big no-no if a 2" elbow ends up pointing the wrong way and ends up setting that way

11. While it is still slightly over hand hot but with the solder hardened use an old rag, wipe and clean off the old burnt flux, it will come off real easy when its hot like this

The master plumber who taught me said when soldering copper always think ahead and always follow the 7 "P's" Principle. Which is:-
(1) Previous
(2) preparation and
(3) planning
(4) prevents
(5) pi** or pathetically
(6) poor
(7)performance

Hope this hasn't been too boring guys but some people just don't know how to solder properly, and this is for them and :- (Remember to always keep your work fluxed, clean and shining that's the big soldering secret)

Geoff

An extra bit.
The solder sometimes runs all the way around and forms almost a droplet at the bottom of the joint. That's OK as it's just the excess solder trying to run out of the joint at it's lowest point.
TownDrunk

Post by TownDrunk »

Us Navy electrician types have a saying

"The bigger the glob, the better the job"

While training for my new rate of Electronics Technician I got sent to a 2M micro/miniature repair school. It really taught me how to solder and I was able to take that knowledge and move it over to soldering bigger stuff like copper pipe.

Good info you posted Husker!!
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Howto solder (beginners guide)

Post by birdwatcher »

Thanks much for this info Husker. Appreciated.
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Post by byacey »

A few more words on Solder - While it's been stressed many times in many different places on this forum to use lead free solder, I feel some novices should be aware that just because it's labeled "Lead-Free" doesn't necessarily mean it's safe for our purposes.

When choosing a solder to buy, obtain and read the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). Some lead free solders have other harmful metals that we don't need to be coming in contact with our drinking alcohol. Cadmium and Antimony are a couple of the more common ones. These often make up only a small percentage of the total metals in the solder, but nonetheless they are harmful and should be rejected. These "bad" metals are added to ensure better wetting of the solder joint and usually have a lower melting temperature as a result of the alloy mixture. This makes soldering easier, but don't be tempted to use this stuff for your still.

Regarding silver solders - Again find out what the makeup of the solder is. Make sure the silver solder is approved for food grade usage.
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Post by Skymeat »

byacey,
Do you have a list of winners?
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Post by HookLine »

A list of safe solders and brazes is a damn good idea.

I know of the following in Australia:

Solders

Comweld 965 (soft silver solder). Tin 96.5%, silver 3.5%. This is your first choice for a solder, but it is expensive. It is distributed by Cigweld.

Lead Free Solder (Cat. No. N2632). Tin 99.3%, copper 0.7%.
Lead Free Silver Solder (Cat. No. N2633). Tin 95.5%, silver 4%, and copper 0.5%.
Both are sold at Dick Smith Electronics.
(I can't find the MSDS for these two. They both have a flux core and I don't know for sure if that is safe. But it should clean off okay after soldering, and I think CoopsOz used the Lead Free Solder on his still.)

Brazes

Pro Silver 2
Pro Silver 5
Pro Silver 15

SilBRAZE P
SilBRAZE 2P
SilBRAZE 5P
SilBRAZE 15P

The SilBRAZE P is mostly copper with a small amount of phosphorous. The other SilBRAZE and all the Pro Silver are silver (2%, 5%, 15%) and copper, with a small amount of phosphorous. The phosphorous acts as flux for copper-copper joins, but copper-brass joins need a boron based flux.

In Australia Pro Silver is distributed by BOC Gas, and SilBRAZE by http://www.silbraze.com.au" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Post by byacey »

Skymeat wrote:byacey,
Do you have a list of winners?
I didn't post any specific types because I figured what's available here in Canada isn't necessarily going to be available elsewhere; and vice-versa.

I'll get some model numbers together and post what is available here.
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Post by alice »

Anyone have any good tips on cleaning up the joint after its cooled, especially cleaning off the burnt flux crud?
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Post by Skymeat »

Through all my mistakes I used a SS scrubber or ScotchBrite pad.
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Post by alice »

Skymeat wrote:Through all my mistakes I used a SS scrubber or ScotchBrite pad.

Uh, I knew that, of course :oops:
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Post by pintoshine »

I use mineral spirits whenever the petroleum jelly and zinc chloride flux is used on the outside. It cuts the petroleum crud very well. Typically I will run a 4 to 5 hour run of steam followed by a run of tails to be thrown out, for the inside. This does a pretty good job for commissioning a new still. This is for soldering copper of course.
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Post by pintoshine »

I saw that you referred to me for the stainless steel soldering. I have two write up for soldering stainless steel.


Starting in the spring of 2007, I came by a lot of scrap stainless steel from a scrapper gutting a grocery store. The sheeting was a lot of stainless steel shelf liners. All but one sheet was 22 ga. and the one sheet was 18 ga. This is what I did with it.

304 is hard to solder. You have to have it perfectly clean, heat it flux it and clean it again and flux it and then the solder might wet the surface if you are lucky.


My solution was:
1. Surface preparation: I used a stainless steel, soft wire, cup shaped brush in my drill to clean any surface to be soldered until it was nearly mirror shiny.
2. The heat source: I purchased a 175 watt Weller soldering iron, not a gun.
3. The flux: The flux was a surface cleaner and wetting agent. I used common, off the shelf muriatic acid used full strength. This was fairly inexpensive and did a fabulous job. It requires a small amount of clean up but applying enough water to dilute the acid to nothingness once finished with a batch of soldering. The fumes were no difficulty with adequate ventilation, proper application and careful body position. The acid itself was applied with cheap, natural hair, acid brushes. The brushes were disposed of after each round(4 hours or so) of soldering.
4. The solder: the 95%/5% silver, had one characteristic that the 96%/4% antimony did not. It had a better surface tension and would pool rather than run.

The procedure was:
1. Clean metal to be soldered to a bright shine.
2. Apply the barest minimum of acid to wet the surface to be soldered.
3. Apply the iron to start heating the metal.
4. Keep face and hand away from the fumes from the acid.
5. Feed solder at the interface of the iron and the metal to create a small pool.
6. Move the solder around with the iron feeding more as needed.

There is an observation I need to make here. The solder will adhere to the stainless anywhere the iron is applied. The surface of the stainless does not wick the solder like copper does. The solder will wet the surface at the interface of the iron and metal but does not flow much beyond that interface. For sealing up two layers of metal, the solder would wet the bottom sheet up to the junction of the two sheets and it would wet the face the iron could touch of the top sheet. Sometimes this my be just the very edge. The solder would bridge the gap nicely but would not wick down in between the sheets like it will on copper. The surfaces being soldered would have to be positioned nearly horizontal and level to prevent the solder from dripping away. In welding terms this is the flat position.
sssolder1.jpg
sssolder1.jpg (11.49 KiB) Viewed 65789 times
When soldering the really long runs, I use a constant, flowing motion of heating the metal and feeding the solder in a continuous motion. I can usually cover 24 inches in 30 seconds.
Next post will be a copy of soldering copper to stainless.
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Post by pintoshine »

This is how I connect the copper fittings to the stainless. I contrived a robust connection for copper to stainless.
1. Get a female threaded adapter for the size pipe you are using.
2. File or saw out the stop to allow a piece of pipe to slide all the way through.
3. Cut a piece of tubing a few inches longer then your connector.
4. With a pair of needle nose or small vice grips, turn an edge that is about an eighth inch outward around one end of the piper. Make the edge as perpendicular as possible.
5. Using water to keep your saw or drill cold, make a hole the size of your pipe through the stainless sheet.
6. Tin around the hole about 1/2 cm on both sides using the previous instructions.
7. Insert the pipe through the hole in the hole in the stainless until the perpendicular edge catches on the sheet.
8. Slide the female adapter over the pipe with the threaded end toward the sheet, clamping the sheet between the perpendicular pipe edge and the adapter.
9. Flux and solder the copper with a torch as usual, making sure to allow the copper to heat the sheet and not ever using the flame on the stainless.
10. Feed lots of solder between the copper and the stainless to create a nice fillet.
11. Leave very still until the solder hardens.


This should give you a very sturdy structure to solder. It will allow for some gaps to be overlapped also. If your hole is too raggedy the get a large piece of pipe and adapter and make the hole a little bit bigger. You can always use a reducer.

Here are some pics of my process.
thumper3.jpg
thumper3.jpg (13.2 KiB) Viewed 65786 times
thumper4.jpg
thumper4.jpg (22.92 KiB) Viewed 65785 times
This makes a very strong and airtight connection with soft solder and copper.
Last edited by pintoshine on Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Skymeat »

beautiful work. I was just about to ask how you did it.
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Post by defcon4 »

Good copper to copper soldering video on youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=doqoEJJOdYA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Post by Bsnapshot »

Anyone know of brand names or sources of solder to use hear in the states? Or what would be the break down of inheritance one should look for in the solder besides just being led free.
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Post by pintoshine »

I like the BernzOmatic brand 1% silver and tin with no antimony.

http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomatic/ ... idWire.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Post by Bsnapshot »

Any one know if thisis a good solder to use?

http://www.tool-box-hardware.com/ALPHA- ... PSPVKG.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Post by pintoshine »

from the advertisement it states:
LPHA METALS LEAD-FREE SOLID WIRE SOLDER 3 Oz. .125 dia. For general non-electrical applications Melting temperature 464 deg.F 95% tin/5% antimony Peggable Card
Some have had issues with this alloy.
Personally, the only complaint I have about it is that it does not "hang" well. The antimony causes it to run like water. This is a good attribute if you are sweating and there will be little to no contact with the water. Water pipes calcify on the inside and have a natural protective layer against most metals.

As far as safety factors are concerned I haven't found that exposure to antimony other than chronic inhalation of the dust at refineries are any threat to health.
My research is supported by the US EPA
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/antimony.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Post by Bsnapshot »

Pintoshine

Thanks for the nice find on the antimony compounds. I read the sight and it makes me wonder if that is not the cause to my problem with my still. Everything that comes out of it has a bad taste even metal like..
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Post by GingerBreadMan »

I haven't been able to find a reasonably price solder iron to solder SS to copper. There were a couple on ebay but no shipping to Canada. Anyways, I was at my parents place during easter and looked what I scored going through my dad's tools.

Image

Image

It's a soldering iron tip that snaps on a propane torch. This should work as a soldering iron, no?

Does anyone know where you can buy such a thing? Just in case this breaks, gets lost, etc. I've never seen something like this before.

Anyways, I'm going to give this a try and solder a 1 1/2" copper pipe end cap to a SS bowl for my next still project.
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Post by GingerBreadMan »

Success! Whooo hooo!

I successfully soldered a 1 1/2 copper pipe end cap to a stainless steel bowl.

Here how I did it-

- First I bolted the end cap to the bowl with a 1/4" bolt.
- I applied Kester 817 liquid flux to the SS around the end cap with a nylon brush
- Then I used the solder iron tip to apply the solder to the stainless steel. The solder would only apply very close to where the iron was heating. It pooled quite nicely.
- I let it cool down
- I applied normal plumbing flux to the copper where it attaches to the bowl
- I heated up the copper end cap with the propane torches going in a circular motion

After about a minute the solder melted and adhered very well making a perfect seal between the copper and stainless. I let it cool down.

Here is pic of the copper end cap bolted and soldered to the bowl -

Image

After it cooled down, I drilled 4 holes (3/8" diameter). Tip: it's easier drilling from the inside of the bowl - in other words starting from the SS and through the copper, then the other way around. Removed the bolt and I have a nice copper connection to the stainless steel bowl.

Image

Image

Many thanks to pintoshine for letting us know how to soft solder copper to stainless steel.

:D :D :D
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Post by HookLine »

Nice work, GBM.

One suggestion. Might be worth drilling out the centre hole much bigger. Give you more area for the vapour to pass through.
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Post by Old_Blue »

Take a dremel tool or a hack saw blade and cut between the holes and open her up :wink:
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Post by GingerBreadMan »

Both are great ideas and would recommend it. (Actually just bought a dremel and itching to try it out).

But, I have plans for that 1/4" hole in the still design. :twisted:


The 4 holes that are 3/8" works out to be the same size as a 3/4" hole which is what my current still has, so I don't think I'll have problems.
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Post by Centimeter »

Is it better to use brazing rods or silver solder? I intend to use a MAP torch as my heat source. All joints will be copper to copper.

Also, I have access to both 70% silver solder (very expensive) and the BernzOmatic brand 1% silver and tin solder Pint sugested. Which will provide a better more durrable seel while reducing potential off flavors? I ask because my last still developed many breaks in the solder after I ran hot steam through the tower. :roll:

In the solderig directions, it says that any flux will do. Is this neccesarily true? Which ones have you guys found to work the best for our applications?
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Post by Hawke »

GBM,
We used to be able to get those tips at any hardware store. I haven't looked for one in many years. Used to be a standard piece in the 'deluxe' torch kits.
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Post by HookLine »

GingerBreadMan wrote:But, I have plans for that 1/4" hole in the still design. :twisted:
So ya gonna keep us in suspense? :?
GingerBreadMan wrote:The 4 holes that are 3/8" works out to be the same size as a 3/4" hole which is what my current still has, so I don't think I'll have problems.
A bunch of smaller holes with a combined area equal to one bigger hole, will not allow as much total flow through them as the single big hole. The resistance to flow is proportionally higher in the smaller holes, because the ratio of perimeter to area is higher.

Not saying you will have problems. Those four 3/8" holes may be enough. You will soon find out.

It will help if you can keep the first inch or two after the holes empty (free from packing), make it a sort of expansion chamber.
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Post by GingerBreadMan »

hmm... well I'll have to see if the 4 holes are big enough, otherwise make a plan B. :D

The 1/4" hole in the center is for attaching an optional 'gin head'. I know the gin head is usually mounted like a thumper, but my idea is to use a threaded rod bolted to this hole and mount a smaller stainless steel bowl inside the boiler just under the lid. The threaded bolt would hold the smaller bowl in place.

The vapors will have to flow through this bowl where the botanicals are and out the still. This would only be done on the second or third distill while the still is operating as a pot still so there would be no reflux.

Sorry no diagram or picture, hope this makes sense.

If the experimental gin head fails, I'll just make the holes bigger :D
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