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Baking Soda

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:06 pm
by Froggy
I have about 12L of 40% cloudy spirit which I'm going to cook off again. I've been reading on here about mixing bicarbonate soda in with the spirit for a week or so before running through the still.
A few of the more in depth threads on here had many posts for and against the idea.

So my question is how many on here use this method and do you notice any real improvements?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:24 pm
by BW Redneck
Bicarb works great. It dissociates into NaOH ions and they chew up a lot of various esters and aldehydes and clears up a bunch of funky flavors. Mix about 1 tablespoon per quart.

Only recommend it for neutral spirits. Can turn a malty whiskey into flavorless hootch.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:33 pm
by Froggy
Thanks mate.

One quart is roughly one litre isn't it?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:56 pm
by BW Redneck
Right. I wanted to say litre, but I thought it'd seem odd that I used US and metric to refer one quantity to another. :roll:

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:57 pm
by Froggy
No worries mate.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:06 pm
by Bsnapshot
Do you add the baking soda during the stripping run or the spirit run? Do you add it the same day or days before the run?

Does the baking soda do the same as adding salt like I seen in some other post

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:28 pm
by HookLine
Do you add the baking soda during the stripping run or the spirit run?


No, after the stripping (low wines) run, before the spirit run
Do you add it the same day or days before the run?
Add it straight after the stripping run, and let it sit for a week or so, stir it up at least once a day.
Does the baking soda do the same as adding salt like I seen in some other post
Explanation here.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:33 pm
by mikeac
BW Redneck wrote:Right. I wanted to say litre, but I thought it'd seem odd that I used US and metric to refer one quantity to another. :roll:
You'd be from Canada if you did... :lol: tablespoons and liters are directions I can understand

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:35 am
by Bsnapshot
I read the explanation on the parent sight but still a little confused.
So the baking soda and the salt do two different things and both should be added? the salt highers the boiling temp for the water and helps with separation and the baking soda helps with removing off flavors and nasties? Or am I wrong on this?

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:01 am
by HookLine
Sounds about right. I am pretty sure that most do not use salt, but most do use bicarb (or sodium carbonate, at 1 tsp per litre).

This is for neutral spirits, of course, not flavoured spirits.

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:41 am
by oakie
Personally I never use salt. I do how ever use baking soda. I add baking soda and freshly charred toasted wood to my low wines (for neutral spirits) and let sit for a couple of weeks. (shaking it once a day) I then run my spirit run. The spirit is a lot smoother and I end up with a little more when I use this method then when I don't.

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:31 pm
by stoker
BW Redneck wrote:... It dissociates into NaOH ions ..
that's not correct, but the results will be simular, though bicarb is not as strong as NaOH, it might not react with the esters, but will react with acids, but I doubt how much acid is present in low wines. therefore, I think the bicarb has most of its influence during the run, more then before. at higher temperatures.
does anyone want to make experments of a good quality? NaOH, bicarb, before, after run, ... would be interesting.

yep

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:39 pm
by Uncle Jesse
google search: 1 quart in liters


1 US quart = 0.94635295 liters

Re: yep

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:08 pm
by Froggy
Uncle Jesse wrote:google search: 1 quart in liters


1 US quart = 0.94635295 liters
I dont think I'll be bothering to adjust the amount of baking soda or spirit for that :D

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:22 am
by byacey
We use the Queens measurements around here - 34-45-, .. I mean 1 litre equals 0.88 Imperial quart.

Re: yep

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:45 am
by alice
Uncle Jesse wrote:google search: 1 quart in liters


1 US quart = 0.94635295 liters
Damn, no wonder my last batch was screwed up - I've been calculationg it at 0.94635296 liters..... :lol: :lol:

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:47 am
by HookLine
The Devil is in the details. :twisted:

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:29 am
by wineo
I have used the salt.Dont bother,it didnt do much.The bicarb works great,and I also think it does most of its work in the boiler.Ive done it both ways,and cant tell any difference.

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:46 am
by Froggy
My question is, is the bi-carb soda really worth doing? Today I had 20L of 40% spirit that I added a table spoon of bi-carb per litre to, and boy doesn't 20 table spoons add up :?

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:37 am
by HookLine
Yes. I have done it with and without. With is much better.

Bicarb is cheap.

Sodium carbonate works even better. Get it from pool shops (or Bunnings) as pH raiser. It is much more powerful than bicarb, so it only needs one teaspoon per litre, and you don't have to wait, you can distill straight away.

Sodium carbonate is also relatively cheap.

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:39 am
by Froggy
Thanks mate, I'll look into the sodium carbonate.

With all the effort you go to, do you polish with carbon in the end?

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:22 am
by HookLine
No.

One of my main aims in the way I do it is to avoid having to polish with carbon in the first place. IMHO, if you need to carbon filter vodka, you haven't distilled right in the first place.

Filtering out the carbon after polishing is a time-consuming, messy f*#&$%#ing business. My vodka is at least as clean as any commercial brand I have tried.

Half the secret is a tall column, which you have (will have shortly :wink: ).

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:46 am
by Froggy
Ahh good good. Using my current still I polish the spirit afterwards to be on the safe side. The carbon adds to the cost though so if I can get away from that I don't mind doing the bi-carb treatment.

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:14 am
by HookLine
Here is what I do to get a clean, smooth product without using carbon:

Low % ferment (around 10%)
Fully clear the wash before stilling
Add bicarb/carb to the low wines (strippings)
Run through a tall column (at least 1000mm of packing)
Let product age for at least two weeks before drinking

DRINK! 8)

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:32 am
by Bsnapshot
What is the difference between Bicarb and Sodium carbonate?
One you have to add and let sit for a week before running and the other you can add and run right away, is that the difference?

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:46 am
by HookLine
Sodium carbonate is a lot stronger (higher pH), so its effect is more-or-less immediate.

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:48 am
by schnell
the sodium carbonate is dehydrated sodium bicarbonate...

since your putting it in water you end up with virtually the same result.

after an ester is hydrolyzed you're left with an alcohol and an organic acid. (ester + water => organic acid + ethanol) the anionic conjugate base of the acid will then ionically bond the sodium ion. (organic acid + base => salt + water).

salts don't melt easy, much less boil. but they're very very water soluble.

this reaction is why the esters go away and are no longer components of the heads. they have been incorporated into the liquid solution as dissolved salts that are not volatile.

so add it to low wines that still have a significant amount of water. the water is crucial for a hydrolysis reaction to occur. the base just pushes it.

and don't use a strong base like NaOH. you might regret it.

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:00 am
by wineo
I dont use carbon anymore.I have in the past,but I feel that if you have to use carbon to clean it up,You need to change your ferment to something cleaner,then you can forget the carbon.I dont use the bicarb unless my neutrals have too much flavors,and I dont use very much of it.
I have been making vodka with a potstill,running once with a large forshot cut,and collecting to 40%,then when I have made 4 or 5 stripping runs,I potstill it a 2nd time with hard cuts,and keep only the hearts for the vodka.It seems to have a better flavor than the refluxed stuff,and blows away the commercial stuff by miles.It almost taste like water,until the end,and the flavors on the end are all pleasent.

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:30 am
by Dnderhead
I agree with wineo i also use a pot still much better
it also helps to use a wash like wineos potato sugar wash

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:48 pm
by frynturn
I'm doing my first stripping + reflux run after starting off on turbos. I've got 20L @~40% to which I've added 20 Tablespoons of bicarb. soda

1. Can I expect all of the bicarb soda to be used up? I mix it up twice a day and it all seems to disolve no problem, just wondering if it will gradually disappear.

2. If it doesn't all get used up do I need to let it settle and syphon off the wash or can I just be a bit more carefree and tip the wash into the still along with some of the left over bicarb?