Baking Soda

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Ferrum
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Ferrum »

Dissociate means the acid (CH3COOH) splitting up into the conjugate base (CH3COO-) and H+, so basicly acid form going to base form. It's in solution both in acid or base form.
Bagasso wrote:at some point acetic acid will stop being acetic acid and turn to acetate.
"at some point" is more like right away in this context. Acid/base reactions can happen in picoseconds, so assuming you stirred well and the base dissolved, the reaction is instantanious. The limiting step is the hydrolysis of ethyl acetate. When you lower pH again, you instantly form acetic acid in the quantities we discussed.

I like your idea with the red cabbage, altho I don't think it would be very precise:p I believe red wine turns green or something too when you add base. :sick:
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Bagasso »

Ferrum wrote:Dissociate means the acid (CH3COOH) splitting up into the conjugate base (CH3COO-) and H+, so basicly acid form going to base form. It's in solution both in acid or base form.
Makes no real difference, I just saw the mention of a buffer solution of CH3COOH being made up of CH3COOH and its conjugate base, "in salt form". Guess it isn't that odd to say it that way.
"at some point" is more like right away in this context.
The context was at some point on the pH scale, not "at some time".
I like your idea with the red cabbage, altho I don't think it would be very precise:p I believe red wine turns green or something too when you add base. :sick:
Doesn't need to be. 1/8 tsp of baking soda in a cup of water will give you around pH 8.4. Use a strip of your homemade litmus on that and then match that color to know you are at around 8.4. Ease of mind, for those who need it, without going below 7.
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Mario84 »

Ok, this thread is getting really technical...

I'm just simply curious about whether or not baking soda works to clean a neutral spirit run in an air still...?
Well, not if it works or not, but if it's "safe" to use it?

I read salt, which is used for the same reasons, will slowly corrode or physically damage the metal; but how baking soda on the other hand, shouldn't be used in setups which contain certain metals – I think it was copper. The thing about air stills, is that there is no way (as far as I know) of finding out which materials are in the condensation part of the still.
[Like a lot of electronics... where there are no convenient ways of opening and finding out which materials really are inside]

Any help?
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by still_stirrin »

Mario84 wrote:Ok, this thread is getting really technical...I'm just simply curious about whether or not baking soda works to clean a neutral spirit run in an air still...?
Are you asking about adding the soda to the low wines for a spirit run; or asking about adding the soda to the neutral spirit when collect from the spirit run?

The former (1st question) would help neutralize acids, and reduce acetates in the low wines during the spirit run. It could be beneficial. Other bases would be more effective, however. If you make sodium carbonate out of sodium bicarbonate (google the internet to learn how to do this), the NaCO3 is a stronger base and will work better for you, especially if it is added in the boiler.

The latter (2nd question), I cannot believe there is any benefit to doing. Maybe others can chime in here, but I have never added a carbonate or bicarbonate to a finished spirit (to “clean it up”).

And I don’t carbon filter either, which would seem to be the best method to polish a finished (off still) spirit.
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Bagasso »

Mario84 wrote:I'm just simply curious about whether or not baking soda works to clean a neutral spirit run in an air still...?
Well, not if it works or not, but if it's "safe" to use it?
One thing that I have read a few times is about plastic in the output nozzle. I've seen some with a plastic hose attached to the black outlet but I'm not sure if it is that or the outlet itself. I remember someone saying that you could remove the shroud to expose the metal (ss?) nozzle but I'm not sure.

Either way the problem there is the alcohol and plastic not the pH of the boiler charge.

The last run I did I was a bit heavy handed with sodium hydroxide and the meter was above 12 pH. I ran it like that and checked the distillate and it read 6.58 pH. So, even though the low wines in the boiler had a very high pH, which shouldn't bother SS, it never made it to the coil since the distillate came out a little below neutral.

Like still_stirring pointed out, this is a treatment used with low wines that will be run again. You don't want to add it to finished spirits. Depending on what you use and how much it will affect the taste (alka zeltzer is not neutral) and it may be dangerous to drink.
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Mario84 »

Yeah, I'm asking about adding baking soda to the low wines for a spirit run. I'm wondering if this can lead to any problems in an air still.
I will look into making sodium carbonate. Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Bagasso »

Mario84 wrote:I'm wondering if this can lead to any problems in an air still.
It won't.
I will look into making sodium carbonate. Thanks for the tip.
You should also look into just buying sodium carbonate. When converting bicarb to carbonate you loose about 1/3 of the weight. So, even if carbonate seems more expensive, once you factor in the weight lost during the conversion there might not be much of a difference in price and you will save some time.
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by DianaGin »

Clueless how to post a picture.

I have read most of the thread. Just need confirmation that this is the right stuff?
Calcium Hypochlorite (ours, HTH Shock It is 680g/kg strength)
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NZChris
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by NZChris »

DianaGin wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:58 am Clueless how to post a picture.

I have read most of the thread. Just need confirmation that this is the right stuff?
Calcium Hypochlorite (ours, HTH Shock It is 680g/kg strength)
Without reading any of the thread I can tell you that that sounds very wrong.
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bronctoad
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by bronctoad »

WAY WAY WAY WRONG!!!
that is chlorine treatment for a pool with tons of other bad materials in there
DO NOT USE THAT!
baking soda is what I think you need. regular arm&hammer baking soda
or maybe its baking powder, but at least either one is not poisonous like hypo is
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by cob »

DianaGin wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:58 am Clueless how to post a picture.

I have read most of the thread. Just need confirmation that this is the right stuff?
Calcium Hypochlorite (ours, HTH Shock It is 680g/kg strength)
I just re read the entire thread, and could not find any indication as to how you

could confuse sodium bi-carbonate, or sodium carbonate with Calcium Hypochlorite.

as others have indicated DO NOT USE Calcium Hypochlorite.

for you more research is needed. re read the entire thread!
be water my friend
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by DianaGin »

Thank you. Have not used it!
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by atarijedi »

I'd just like to note, because it doesn't seem to have been clearly stated, that neither sodium bicarbonate, nor sodium carbonate, will break down esters. They are not nucleophiles in this situation, like sodium hydroxide is, and a nucleophile is absolutely required for hydrolysis of an ester using a base.

What they will do, because they are still bases (alkalines), is neutralize any acids, including carboxylic acids, and prevent the creation of new esters as the wash/low-wines sit, and when heat is added to the wash/low-wines during distillation (when a lot of esters are produced).

For DianaGin, if you ever read this. Calcium hypochlorite is a strong oxidizer, aka a bleaching agent, so what it will do is turn ethanol into ethanoic acid (acetic acid), there are 2 ways it can go, directly to ethanoic acid, or first into the aldehyde ethanal (acetaldehyde), and then into ethanoic acid. On top of that, the presence of that now extra acetic acid might turn into more acetate based esters, so it would probably end up doing the exact opposite of what you want.

It would be an interesting experiment under lab conditions where you could guarantee that all the hypochlorite gets consumed, or dealt with it appropriately, as spirits like rum benefit from being extra estery. I do not recommend any hobbyists do it unless you know what you are doing. The risk is too high.
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by DianaGin »

I have used normal Bicarb in my last run, and all I can say is WOW! Tasted a nip of it today. Clear and perfect. It is currently macerating my botanicals and will do a Gin run tomorrow (ala Odin)
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Hügelwilli »

atarijedi wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:09 pm I'd just like to note, because it doesn't seem to have been clearly stated, that neither sodium bicarbonate, nor sodium carbonate, will break down esters. They are not nucleophiles in this situation, like sodium hydroxide is, and a nucleophile is absolutely required for hydrolysis of an ester using a base.
So say I want to make a buffer solution for fermenting fruits at low pH with a low pH tolerating yeast.
If the buffer solution is made from citric acid and sodium hydroxide, does it destroy esters compared to a buffer solution made with citric acid and sodium carbonate with same pH? (Of course it needs more of the carbonate than of the hydroxide to target the same pH. This is not my question.)
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by atarijedi »

Hügelwilli wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:21 am
atarijedi wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:09 pm I'd just like to note, because it doesn't seem to have been clearly stated, that neither sodium bicarbonate, nor sodium carbonate, will break down esters. They are not nucleophiles in this situation, like sodium hydroxide is, and a nucleophile is absolutely required for hydrolysis of an ester using a base.
So say I want to make a buffer solution for fermenting fruits at low pH with a low pH tolerating yeast.
If the buffer solution is made from citric acid and sodium hydroxide, does it destroy esters compared to a buffer solution made with citric acid and sodium carbonate with same pH? (Of course it needs more of the carbonate than of the hydroxide to target the same pH. This is not my question.)
Buffers need to be made of a weak acid and it's conjugate base, or a weak base and it's conjugate acid. Citric acid is a weak acid, but it's conjugate base is a citrate salt, so sodium citrate, calcium citrate, etc... Adding sodium hydroxide, or sodium carbonate, won't make a buffer with citric acid, they will attempt to neutralize each other, and if there is any hydroxide left over, it will react with any organic compounds there, like esters.

Just to make it more clear, you cannot make a buffer with strong acids or strong bases, hydrochloric acid, nitric acid, sulfuric acid, are examples of strong acids, because they completely disassociate when put into water. All the hydroxides are strong bases, so sodium hydroxide, calcium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, etc... because they also completely disassociate when put into water. Buffers need partial disassociation, not full disassociation.

Disassociation is when the anion and cation separate, so for hydrochloric acid, you have HCl -> H+ and Cl-, becomign a hydrogen ion and a chloride ion. With sodium hydroxide you have NaOH ---> Na+ and OH-, becoming a sodium ion and a hydroxide ion. So all the HCl turns into H+ and Cl-, and all the NaOH turns into Na+ and OH-. Doesn't work as a buffer because of that.

Acetic acid on the other hand CH3COOH, a weak acid, only some of it disassociates into acetate and a free hydrogen ion, CH3COOH -> CH3COO- and H+.

The purpose of a buffer is that only some of the weak/conjugate acid, and only some of the conjugate/weak base, has disassociated at any one time. Once that disassociated portion of the weak/conjugate acid/base has reacted to neutralize the offending base/acid, than some more of the original weak/conjugate acid/base will then disassociate, and it will continue doing that, trying to keep the pH at/around a specific value.

All that said, a buffer solution won't destroy esters. A citric acid/sodium citrate buffer, isn't strong(nucleophilic) enough. They won't be strong enough. But they can stop new esters from being created, by reacting with some of the acids (like fatty acids) that would normally react with alcohols to become esters (like fatty acid esters), preventing that from happening.
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Hügelwilli »

Thanks for the answer. I know that I don't know much about this topic. I hope I learn here something.
What you write about conjugated base and so on I also find at other places online. But when I google for buffer solution citric acid sodium hydroxide, I get many links where I can buy such a buffer solution:
https://www.merckmillipore.com/DE/en/pr ... HEM-109446
https://www.lobachemie.com/buffer-solut ... -nist.aspx
https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products ... l/60048367
Perhaps a low pH buffer is possible this way, but a high pH buffer isn't?

What I did:
10 grams of citric acid solved in 100ml water. Then I added 1 gram sodium hydroxide. The resulting pH is measured with strips 2.9. This solution was used for fermenting 10l fruit must at a relative stable low pH with a low pH tolerating yeast. It fermented very dry.
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by sampvt »

I had a bad bath that came out with dome seriously funky tastes and a very strong alcohol smell, not chemical or thinners type of smell, just nose burning ethanol type nose. I soaked bi carb in it as advised, eft it 10 days, re cooked it in my reflux still did cuts in 200ml jars and took the middle third. I even diluted it back to 40% abv and fired it through active carbon, but it still has that sweet tongue burning taste and strong ethanol nose.

Question is, have I done as much as I can and is it destined for the hand sanitiser days, or is there one last thing I can do to rescue it. This isn't a case of I need it or want to beat it. Its simply a project I would like to win due to the time and effort Ive spent on the dam thing, lol.

Can bad spirit be rescued or not ?????????
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Only ever heard of people using baking soda in low wines before the spirit run.......never for trying to fix whats already gone wrong.
sampvt wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:40 pm but it still has that sweet tongue burning taste
I always associate the words sweet and burn with heads.
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Corsaire
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Corsaire »

Is this your turbo wash you're trying to save?
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by sampvt »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:36 pm Only ever heard of people using baking soda in low wines before the spirit run.......never for trying to fix whats already gone wrong.
sampvt wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:40 pm but it still has that sweet tongue burning taste
I always associate the words sweet and burn with heads.
After realising that I has a bad batch, I threw the lot into my reflux set up, for the third time, at the weekend, it was 45%abv so I mixed it with some RO filtered water down to 30% and ran it splitting it into 16 different jars. I left the jars open to air for 24 hrs and the best were the middle 4 jars which were diluted with RO water and even filtered through a new cylinder of active carbon and its still not that nice. To be fair, the difference in every one of the 16 jars was pretty negligible, they were all pretty nose offensive. Im guessing that even though this batch has been distilled, stripped and refluxed 3 more times, that it cant be rescued for some unknown reason, I just thought I would pick the brains of those in the know to try to come up with an answer
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by sampvt »

Corsaire wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:44 pm Is this your turbo wash you're trying to save?
Yes it is
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by NZChris »

sampvt wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm
Corsaire wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:44 pm Is this your turbo wash you're trying to save?
Yes it is
I know this is intended for pot stills, but it should still help you turn your Turdbro into something more drinkable.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 46&t=13261
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Corsaire
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Corsaire »

sampvt wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:51 pm I left the jars open to air for 24 hrs and the best were the middle 4 jars which were diluted with RO water and even filtered through a new cylinder of active carbon and its still not that nice.
Sounds like sampvt did make cuts.
It's just that apparently turbo's throw off so much congeners they're hard to reflux out.

I'd cut my losses and consider it a lesson learned. You mentioned you had success with googe's goo so I wouldn't bother with this anymore.
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NZChris
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by NZChris »

Surely, Turdbro can't be that bad?? (I've never used it)
sampvt wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:40 pm ... but it still has that sweet tongue burning taste...
Taste your cut jars at around 35% ABV. If they are nasty, don't put them in your heart cut.

If your choice of heart cut still tastes nasty, start over and use your Turdbro for hand sanitiser.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Have you made cuts each time you have run it ?....if not your just recycling the same old rubbish.
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by sampvt »

Ive made cuts everytime but it appears that the turbo crap carries over too many nasties and its going into the loo consigned to assist other turdbros, lol.
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NZChris
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by NZChris »

Save it for a PITA free-loader visitor who reckons he can drink anything but wants to scoff your finest product.
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Corsaire
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by Corsaire »

Haha, or the one who wants the 'strongest'
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Re: Baking Soda

Post by easco »

When making Ramen Noodles at home, where you also need a solution with a basic pH, it’s common to make Sodium Carbonate from Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) by baking it in an oven. An internet search for “baked Baking soda” should find some instructions. If you care to take the extra step.
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