Backsetters unite

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der wo
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by der wo »

I now tried out calcium hydroxide.

You need similar dosages like with potassium carbonate to rise the pH to an enzyme friendly range.
And unlike sodium or potassium it's absolutely tasteless.

So it's my favourite pH-riser for mashing with backset now.
Thanks to frunobulax. He convinced me in another thread to try it. :thumbup:
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by casper the Irish »

I have started to keep more slop for using. Not just for pH prep of mash or wash. So where stripped low wines need dilution for the spirit run, it's with backset instead of clean water. And sucrose isomerised by boiling first in backset.
Now, nobody has said where backset comes from. Is it the strip run down to 25% TO, 10%, maybe zero? For those with thumpers is that added to backset?
If beer is run till all the alcohol is stripped it is Yeast friendly. Surely backset with tails still in cannot be used to balance a mash?
Fruit and sugar brews generally have unpleasant strong tails but secret weak tails with great taste. e.g. Pugis golden rum oils. Backset from eg Molly rum runs should maybe have the fusels collected separately and the weak tails at 40%ABV and below left in the backset, not stripped out. Using this backset is to retain and build those tails

What of grain strips. Isn't it the strong tails that we want to build up, recycle within the backset? Does that mean, backset ting united, that I should stop my stripping run before 50%ABV at takeoff? Keep the tails in my backset, save fuel, don't weaken the backset but keep it rich?
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by jb-texshine »

I recently had what i considered an excellent result using fruit backset(persimmon) to start a rum ferment. It definately bears repeating.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by der wo »

casper the Irish wrote:What of grain strips. Isn't it the strong tails that we want to build up, recycle within the backset? Does that mean, backset ting united, that I should stop my stripping run before 50%ABV at takeoff? Keep the tails in my backset, save fuel, don't weaken the backset but keep it rich?
How long you strip will have a big influence on the final spirit. I would strip fruit and neutral shorter than whiskey. If you want numbers:
-From 100l neutral wash 10-12% alc collect 25l low wines and then dilute it to 30-40%.
-From 100l fruit mash collect 25l low wines. If the mash only have 5% alc or less, a bit less. If the low wines have more than 40% (very sweet fruits like grapes), collect longer instead of diluting it before the spirit run.
-From 100l whiskey mash I would collect 35l low wines.

And the backset is what you get. Don't strip shorter or longer only to get a specific backset.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by casper the Irish »

Not the total % alc., it's the strip run down to %abv TO alc. i am asking about.

I am thinking potstill stripping run, column spirit run. How far into tails do you strip?
If low wines need dilution for the spirit reflux run, why not use backset instead of water?
The strip is for hearts, but do we take out all tails, or leave them in?

The more tails I take out, the less useful the backset is. Good for mashing, yes.
But
If I only strip hearts, keep all tails in, my backset will be good to add flavour from tails into the spirit run. Use backset with the tails in?
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by der wo »

Dilution is only needed for a neutral spirit or perhaps if you want a flavorful spirit a little more neutral. You don't strip as long as for a whiskey, because you don't want the tails. And the dilution is with water not with backset of course, because water is neutral, backset not.

When you strip 35l from 100l whiskey wash, there will be zero alcohol in the parrot at the end. Or stop earlier and dilute with backset. Or both, long stripping run AND diluting with backset. This way the low wines have only 20% abv probably. But that's no problem, when you do the spirit run with a reflux still or a thumper.

I am not sure if the tails of the backset are so important. Perhaps it's more the acids, which are important. And the acids are the same, regardless if you strip short or long.

It's not possible to "only strip hearts". Because the abv of a wash normally is 6-10%, you don't get enough seperation of the fractions. Except you use a reflux still or a thumper.

Again: When I distill a whiskey, my main goal is a good whiskey not a good backset.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by casper the Irish »

Of course our goal is a good whiskey. Scotch Barley whisky is made on 3 stills, 1.beer is stripped with added tails 2. Low wines are potstilled with strong tails added 3. Hearts are potstilled and residue recycled

Kentucky Maize whiskey is mashed with backset from the stripping run. The strip is either refluxed or double distilled. My strip is too strong to redistill without dilution. Not unless I keep stripping down to 10% takeoff. Most of what comes on the strip run is above 50%, what is the point of continuing into tails?

I am suggesting that where acids in the backset help mashes, weak tails when added to beer will add taste on the strip. Strong tails, added to low wines, will add taste to hearts that come over on the spirit run. Especially if refluxed.

How to add tails to beer or to low wines? Either by collecting, or by keeping them in the backset for adding to the next run instead of water.
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Re: Backsetters unite

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casper the Irish wrote:My strip is too strong to redistill without dilution. Not unless I keep stripping down to 10% takeoff. Most of what comes on the strip run is above 50%, what is the point of continuing into tails?
At least the tradition is, to collect all alcohol at every run. (Almost) no alcohol will be in the backset.

Woodford, American potstill distilled bourbon:
http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... =1&t=60043" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
-after 1. dist. they get 40pr
-after 2. dist. they get 110pr
-after 3. dist. they get 158pr
The wash has 15-20pr I think. To get 40pr low wines, you will collect around 40% f the wash volume. 2nd and 3rd distillation similar.

Lagavulin, Scottland:
http://www.wormtub.com/distilleries/dis ... =Lagavulin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
They strip until the distillate in the parrot has 0.1%abv! This way they rise the abv of the wash (8.9%) to around 22% only (the spirit still charge has 25%, so I think without the feints it's perhaps 22%).

I also started with stripping much shorter. When I changed to a longer stripping, I recognized an improvement of my whisky. The tails are "better". So I can go with the spirit run deeper into the tails. I get a stronger grain flavor without downsides. Stopping the stripping run earlier has the effect, that when the flavor starts, also the bad tails start. I can't prove this and I did not a direct comparision. But I will not go back to a short stripping again.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by casper the Irish »

der wo wrote:
casper the Irish wrote:I have been stripping down to 10% but...what is the point of continuing into tails?
At least the tradition is, to collect all alcohol at every run. (Almost) no alcohol will be in the backset.
When I changed to a longer stripping, I recognized an improvement of my whisky. The tails are "better". So I can go with the spirit run deeper into the tails. I get a stronger grain flavor without downsides. Stopping the stripping run earlier has the effect, that when the flavor starts, also the bad tails start. I can't prove this and I did not a direct comparision. But I will not go back to a short stripping again.
You don't strip neutrals as long as for a whiskey, because you don't want the tails. And the dilution is with water not with backset of course, because water is neutral, backset not.
Thanks DW, this helps me think.


I wonder, to save fuel, if adding backset with tails still in could work, too?
Of course, half or two thirds backset goes down the drain,that part needs stripped to 0%
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by der wo »

casper the Irish wrote:I wonder, to save fuel, if adding backset with tails still in could work, too?
Of course, half or two thirds backset goes down the drain,that part needs stripped to 0%
Stopping earlier saves fuel. And perhaps the alcohol you pull out the last hour isn't worth the extra fuel. But perhaps the taste is worth it.
If you use backset with a residual amount of alcohol and tails for mashing, they will evaporate while mashing.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by alohashine »

I'm a rum guy, with more molasses on hand than I know what to do with. My current 20 L wash is
5 kg molasses
2 kg sugar
7 L backset
Top off with water
10 grams DADY yeast.

No nutrients, no ph adjustments, easy as pie. I make two 20 L mashes every two weeks, strip and spirit run. After every stripping run I make another mash. Currently on 8th generation of backset and rum flavors are really shining through, tastes really good.
Not sure if this is how it's supposed to be done, but it works for me. Where I currently live I can't have a dunder pit.


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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by der wo »

7l backset in 20l wash should be no problem for the yeast. But when we talk about AG, it would be a problem without pH correction for the enzymes to convert the starches.

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Re: Backsetters unite

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alohashine wrote: No nutrients, no ph adjustments, easy as pie. I make two 20 L mashes every two weeks, strip and spirit run. After every stripping run I make another mash. Currently on 8th generation of backset and rum flavors are really shining through, tastes really good.
Not sure if this is how it's supposed to be done.
Tell more.
Some molasses has more sugars than others, perhaps added sulphurs, sediments.... is your molly agricultural or food grade?
How acidic is your backset, does it change each run?
Could you measure your mash OG and pH, or the %ABV of the fermented ale? I use a pH meter because papers are illegible in Molly. I have a cheap Brix refractometer, I dilute till I have 18°Bx to aim for 8%ABV. Any higher slows or sticks the ferment.
What Yeast? Bread, pitched at 33°C?

I think that backset or "Dunder" is especially important in rum running.
I use it -to isomerise any sucrose that I might add
-to adjust wort pH to 5.5
-it helps break down unfermentable sugars.... When I strip, I add a fifth of my low wines to the strip effectively re-running my low wines with more backset)
-when I spirit run I add backset to the low wines until the charge is between 25-30% that can be up to 1:1
-I reflux my low wines, backset makes refluxed low wines far more flavoured and smoothe.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by kimbodious »

I add 5 litres of backset or 20% to my wheat bran sugar-head recipe wash; it is making a nice whisky-style.
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Re: Backsetters unite

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der wo wrote:Lagavulin, Scottland:
http://www.wormtub.com/distilleries/dis ... =Lagavulin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
They strip until the distillate in the parrot has 0.1%abv!

I also started with stripping much shorter. When I changed to a longer stripping, I recognized an improvement of my whisky. The tails are "better". So I can go with the spirit run deeper into the tails. I get a stronger grain flavor without downsides. Stopping the stripping run earlier has the effect, that when the flavor starts, also the bad tails start. I can't prove this and I did not a direct comparision. But I will not go back to a short stripping again.
If we collect beer backset from the strip, do you also collect remainders after spirit run?
Would it make sense to use all remainders, just as Lagavullin does. Pot ale (backset) adds acid plus somehow deep smoothe complex taste. Feints added to spirit runs seem to push extra flavours into hearts. Weak tails added to low wines build it up.

So, in the context of this thread, we should strip grain beers right down to zero and add backset to the mash. Same thing if this was molasses, but in rum, backset or Dunder is also added to the spirit run, for taste and dilution. I suspect the unfermented sugars is a factor. Maillard effect too. (What about grain backset in whiskey spirit run?)?

Now, DW, tell me if I have understood, let me ask how are heads and tails best used? Yes they can be all strip + water =spirit run.
But:
Do you also collect feints from your spirit run?
It looks like these are collected too, split and added to feints or low wines.... strong tails with hearts, heads and weak tails to the low wines.

I have been refluxing my low wines on CCVM. I will collect my tails now, add them to low wines. Simple. When I reflux rum, I add backset to my low wines instead of water.

All the volatiles in backset are removed but I experience a big improvement when I add backset to rum low wines. Why does that improve my spirit, it shouldn't!

Molasses and grain are different.
They both benefit from backset. In the mash, and perhaps in the second run.
Grain has pleasant strong tails. Molasses or fruit sugars have unpleasant strong tails, but great weak tails. I wonder if backset in the spirit run is helping to break down fusels?

As in Lagavullin, the heads and tails are constantly re-cycled until they change or get absorbed by hearts, or get filtered as they do with Bourbon.
Last edited by casper the Irish on Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by der wo »

jasper,

I am not sure if I understand all questions. But I answer, what I understand. If you miss something, try asking again.


Generally the Scotts never use backset. Only the Americans do.

Generally both malt whisky and bourbon is made without loosing one drop of ethanol. At the end all ethanol gets into a barrel. Malt whisky feints are rerun again and again, here a perhaps interesting link for you:
http://whiskyscience.blogspot.de/2012/0 ... tland.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Bourbon tails are redistilled in the continuous column again and again (and the heads were only cut in the barrel).

As far as I know backset from the spirit runs is not collected.
But feints are collected of course. There is much alcohol and taste in it. And if you generally rerun all feints again, you can cut more strict the middle cut without loosing alcohol.

There is no water added to the low wines for the spirit run. This would dilute the taste. Perhaps for making Vodka it's a good idea.

Normally in Bourbon making the backset is added only to the mash, not to the low wines. But many members here (including me) have good results with adding backset to the low wines.

The first run is normally uncut. You only make cuts in the second/last distillation. But in the link you see, it can be very complicated, when you decide for a triple distillation.
And many homedistillers toss a few foreshots also at the stripping run of a double run. IMO only good if you generally use a potstill and if you want a good product without much airing.

Most volatiles are removed from the backset. But when mixing it with alcohol, you get new volatile compounds. It's called esterification, the acids from the backset and the alcohol form volatile esters.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by casper the Irish »

That's so helpful, DW, I agree and am especially pleased to learn that Bourbon tails are recycled. Not, as you corrected me, the backset. And heads inc foreshots are very useful as a rinse when setting up reflux.

A few points:
In your Lagavullin link they refer to feints as = the spirit run tails. They add this to low wines, which are comprised by heads and tails from the strip plus tails from the spirit runs.

I am about to run some corn beer. I have 200l beer plus 100l low wines about 20%ABV. (I stripped them to <1%).
I intend adding them 2:1 for the stripping run, thru a simple stove top pot still. It has a half metre lyne arm packed with copper mesh.
That should yield high wines about 40%, strong flavours in all those extra tails.
Ready for reflux on a CCVM

Tell me more about esters. I note that Odin agrees esters in whiskey, but not in gin or vodka.
The equation has esters and acid+ethanol in equilibrium. If I neutralise acid I get more ethanol....

Why should I prefer more esters, I can make plenty of those by fermenting well above 20°C
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by der wo »

Ok, you want to do something like a 2.5 run. Sounds good.

Vodka doesn't have many esters, because you try to cut them all with the fores and heads. And you want, that as few as possible arise while fermentation. So they will not use infected backset.
Gin is made from neutral alcohol. If it has esters, it's from the spices. I don't know if the spice flavors are esters.

You don't need much esters for a strong effect in the nose. I don't think you can measure without a lab a higher ethanol amount because of neutralised esters.

If commercial products you like have some fruity notes your own spirit doesn't have, perhaps you prefer more esters.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by casper the Irish »

der wo wrote:I now tried out calcium hydroxide.

You need similar dosages like with potassium carbonate to rise the pH to an enzyme friendly range.
And unlike sodium or potassium it's absolutely tasteless.

So it's my favourite pH-riser for mashing with backset now.
Is this builders lime, slaked lime? Do you make limewater and milk of lime with it, or just add 5g/l and stir? That's a lot of Ca which will cause Yeast to floc. Is that an issue?
I will have already added Ca and Mg to condition the water.

So some good use for backset:
Heat up corn mash and Lower the pH to optimise enzymes
Improve breakdown of unfermentable sugars in molasses and higher temp saccharification rests
Added esters. This refers not only to the mash or wash, but also in low wines.

Alcohol in acid will make esters. Neutralising the acids will reduce esters and make ethanol.

So why, either in neutral or in whiskey, do I want to increase esters in my low wines? Adding backset to low wines, in my experience when rum running, does increase esters and reduces alcohol.Backset or Dunder in large amounts, up to 50:50 really benefits refluxed rum spirits.
Do you think it would enhance maize or barley whiskies to do the same, add backset to increase esters in the spirit run?
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by der wo »

Yes, it's just normal lime. I simply add it to the backset or mash. Because it's acidic it will solve.
It's a lot of Ca. But as far as I know the yeast loves Ca. Fact is, the enzymes will not work properly at pH 4 or lower. You have to add something. If you know something better, we are listen. Yeast don't like sodium. That's why I prefer lime over washing or baking soda. Caustic soda is very extreme. You wouldn't need to add much sodium to the mash. Perhaps this is a good way too.

"I will have already added Ca and Mg to condition the water." You mean like brewers? Brewers don't use backset, so they don't have such acidic conditions. You will always need more of whatever than brewers.

Normally the grains are acidic enough for mashing. You don't need to add something to lower the pH. And if you add backset, you are even with small amounts in a too low range.

You want to increase the esters, if you want the flavor of the esters. If I want more esters, I add backset to low wines. At least when distilling with a reflux still after. Because if I had 20-25%abv low wines and dilute it with backset to 15%, I would need again two potstill runs. Or one reflux run. Infected backset will give you more and different esters.
Here the story about my Bourbon with infected backset: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=64615
Here about my infected peated malt whisky: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=65858
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by Boda Getta »

Shed
One oz per gallon. .78%
Really
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by WIski »

boda, an ounce of backset straight up into a gallon of your finished spirit?? What are you saying :?:
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by Swedish Pride »

boda getta wrote:Shed
One oz per gallon. .78%
Really
Shed is no longer here and can't answer.

I did a test with them quantities, it smelled super rough for about 6 months and then mellowed out some, but personally it was no better than the control jar with no backset, might have benefited from more aging (don't they all) but after 6 months i drank the control jar and the backset jar followed suit soon after.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by Boda Getta »

Wiski
That recommendation came from Woodshed.
I would not do it, but I use backset in lots of other ways
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by Stargazer14 »

Anyone try adding dunder to a grain run? I have lots of leftovers from rum runs and was wondering what kind of deep flavor would come out of putting some in a bourbon.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by speedfreaksteve »

Going to start backset from a fresh batch. My previous 5 generation backset seems to be super acidic. I've had to heavily amend my last two batches that I added backset to get the pH up in order for the yeast to be able to function. Measure with a pH strip both the backset and the mash I added backset to and they both were below the range of my pH strips < 4.5.

I love using backset otherwise.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by casper the Irish »

der wo wrote:Yes, it's just normal lime.It's a lot of Ca. But as far as I know the yeast loves Ca. You have to add something. If you know something better, we are listen. Yeast don't like sodium.
You want to increase the esters, if you want the flavor of the esters. If I want more esters, I add backset to low wines
Yes, K2CO3 is a safe food additive, highly alkaline in water, insoluble in alcohol.
Sodium in the mash will react with nutrients to create ammonia and in the presence of copper make copper cyanate. Assign caustic soda or bicarbonate will therefore give blue strip.
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Re: Backsetters unite

Post by der wo »

casper the Irish wrote:Yes, K2CO3 is a safe food additive, highly alkaline in water, insoluble in alcohol. Yes. But it tastes salty. If you want to test your mash with your tongue, calcium hydroxid is better. That's why I decided for calcium hydroxide. It's tasteless.
Sodium in the mash will react with nutrients to create ammonia and in the presence of copper make copper cyanate. Assign caustic soda or bicarbonate will therefore give blue strip. Only with high pH. Your fermented wash will have a low pH. So I consider it safe.
Edit: Sodium + nutes = Ammonia? Do you confuse N with Na? Ammonia production needs nutrients, because nutrients are partial N, yes. And a high pH is needed, what you can achieve with any strong pH riser. Probably too with K2CO3.
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