Column limits

[spiff]

I'm hoping someone can help me with some column limit questions.

How many feet can 5500w or 8000w power on an uninsulated 4in column in say 70 degree weather?

Also, has anyone found the weight limit on your typical 26gal milk can boiler rim?

I have a couple buddy's who might be following me into this hobby and I'm trying to sell them on the idea of getting compatible parts if they do. Combining all the T's and packing extentions for a super tall bad ass neutral run sounds like fun. Power wise the best we would have is one 220v and one 110 heater.. so about 8000w of power. would that power 18 4 in T's with about 4 ft of packing above that? Could 5500w alone do it?

I tested my weight on my boiler and it seems very solid. But I would worry about any lever action that a supertall column might be able to generate if it ends up applying lateral force on the rim for any reason. I would plan on providing some sort of auxillery anchors for the column but it would still be nice to know if I would be pushing the limits of the can.

TIA

[pounsfos]

well theres a bit more to it than that.

You have a few posts under your belt so i'm assuming you know the basics and a good idea of what you want, but size doesn't always matter (that's what she said)

with advancements in distillation such as Spiral Prismatic Packing, most 2' stills can do 1gal of 95.6% shine in about 30mins or less, double that for a 3'

start here if you havent already, there are some calcs further down that can help you calculate vapour speed, boil up times etc....
http://homedistiller.org/theory/theory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

26gal is big, I would be looking at a minimum of 3', more like 4' they will handle the power nicely

[willee]

Check out this link for info about wattage and column size ......

http://homedistiller.org/theory/refluxdesign/diameter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Euphoria]

Well, FWIW, I also have a 26 gallon boiler with an uninsulated 4" plated "Flute" Reflux column, and I also run one 240 volt 5,500 watt electric element in it. I have stacked, and ran, as many as 7 windowed flute sections plus a dephlegmator and crossover tube, and this is while it carried the Liebig condenser and attached parrot without any additional supporting or bracing. I have run this setup without any problems created by column weight, height, stability, or the ability to push the vapors up and over. I could even go taller if I had a higher ceiling, but it's doubtful that I would realize any additional gain by doing so. But as far as the weight on the tank lid, I wouldn't worry about it. They're pretty stoutly made.

[spiff]

Thanks. I'll have to review those links again later but after a quick look they seem to go by diameter, I'm not seeing height. I guess if we get to that point we can just try it out.

I not so much worried about the weight as I am the possible lever action. The 18 T's would be around 100lbs but its also a huge, long lever.. if the ground wasn't perfectly level.. the weight of the downcomers and shotgun, wind.. ect.. all could put pressure on it and I could see the metal around the top folding from the leverage. Still, I was planning on using some sort of mounting harness for the whole contraption, especially since not all parts would be mine. I was just curious if someone else pushed these limits already, it would have been cool to read about their experience.

Regarding size not mattering.. that's not really true.. yeah, I get at least 95% even on my stripping runs on my 6 plater with packed extension. It doesn't mean its done yet. Yes, I run the whole setup even on my stripping run as I found it doesn't save a whole lot of time without it. I run 3 spirit runs (96% whole run) on top of my stripping run before I'm happy with the purity of the taste of my neutral product. I can tell the difference big time. My own personal point of diminishing returns on this is the 4th run.. I can still tell a difference in purity, but not enough that I think its worth that 4th run. Presumably if I'm running 18 T's with a massive 4ft packed extention then that should be equivalent of 3 of my normal spirit runs and would save me two days of running. That's my objective..would be sweet if I could wrap 3 spirit runs into one nice run.

[joeymac]

If you're trying to make new setup for making a whole lot of straight neutral, why try using plates in the column to do so?

SPP, lava rock, and marbles are way more efficient making a neutral and you can throw a ton of power at them before they puke. Those packings will compress heads and tails much much better than plates. From what I've read around, SPP/marbles/lava can handle about 2000-2500 in a 2" column and 5000-5500 in a 3" column before you overpower them. Like pounsfos said, for azeo that's almost 1 gal/hr for a 2" column and like 2gal/hr for a 3" column.

Just seems to me like your trying to chop down a tree with an axe when you've got a chainsaw hanging in the toolshed.

Personally, for what you're talking, I'd look into a 4ft-6ft SPP or marble column with 5000-7000w of available power, or so.

[spiff]

Thanks.. yeah, that's true.. plates vs packing. I've just been rolling with what I have cuz its been working great.. I do use a foot of copper packing on top. But yeah, been toying with ditching the plates and pack the whole thing to milk the most out of it. Gonna have to try that next. But I kinda doubt it'll make enough difference though to forgo the need to multiple spirit runs. Still, would be sweet to get it down to 2 runs instead of 3.. gonna try that and let you know.

It still would be cool to try this extra long column for the most bang for your buck in a single run. Though its looking like this is probably not going to happen. One guy is talking crazy talk about wanting to save for his kids college instead. I'm telling him he needs to rethink his priorities. And my other buddy is being wishy washy about this which I know means he has no money to invest.

[Euphoria]

I'm a bit confused now. When you say "Tees", I'm think along the lines of windowed plated sections joined together with tri-clamps, or maybe I'm not on track with what you are trying to do. If you are using windowed "Tees", then you should have, and be using, a perforated copper plate at each junction between each section of the column. You won't need much, if any, additional copper packing within a plated column. And if you are considering going "18 high", it would be a waste of time. You won't get any better than azeo no matter how many sections you stack up unless you have some form of high dollar moisture dryer. Plus, you probably wouldn't be able to get the heated vapors to climb that high even with two heating elements before you'd lose it to condensation from heat loss. FWIW, I have found that just 6 plates will get my neutral about as pure I can achieve, and I can't really wring any more out of it no matter how many additional plates I add. You reach a point of diminishing returns after about 6 high. Just my experience with using a plated column. For most runs, I'll use between 5~6 plates.

[spiff]

Yes, its just a mile high 4in 6 plate flute with extension for packing.

I had another thread on this topic and the consensus is that 96% doesn't mean its aezotropic. Especially on a neutral, the more your run it the better it gets. As I said.. I get 95% on my stripping run and 96% on all spirit runs and it does get noticeably better even so. So it wouldn't be a waste of time. If it were "true" aezotropic then there would be no separation via further distilling. The consensus from my previous thread on the matter was that it was probably impossible to reach true aezotropic on a home rig.

Try it sometime.. run your 96% neutral again (and again and again if you want) and you'll always get more distinct separations (fores, heads, tails) and the product will keep getting better. If this is ones mindset that further runs is a waste of time then I'm willing to bet that there is room for your mind to be blown. If you think you're happy with your single ran neutral I promise that you're in for a paradigm shift in your thinking once you tried it triple ran.

Yep, mine looks just like your picture, just add a foot extension for packing.

[T-Pee]

Well, FWIW, I also have a 25 gallon boiler with an uninsulated 4" plated "Flute" Reflux column, and I also run one 240 volt 5,500 watt electric element in it. I have stacked, and ran, as many as 7 windowed flute sections plus a dephlegmator and crossover tube, and this is while it carried the Liebig condenser and attached parrot without any additional supporting or bracing. I have run this setup without any problems created by column weight, height, stability, or the ability to push the vapors up and over. I could even go taller if I had a higher ceiling, but it's doubtful that I would realize any additional gain by doing so. But as far as the weight on the tank lid, I wouldn't worry about it. They're pretty stoutly made.

Fixed that for ya.

tp

[Euphoria]

My stuff is also Mile Hi, and yes, I also have, (but rarely use,) an extension section as well. I have run 96%, and I have then rerun it again, which does make it smoother, but it really didn't increase the proof, just made it taste cleaner. I agree that, with a home-use still anyway, achieving azeo is not possible due to the limitations of the equipment. As far as adding additional copper packing inside the extension section you mentioned, I have found in my setup, that it really didn't significantly increasing sulphate removal, at least to any noticeable degree, above what the perforated plates do on their own. The copper packing is great if you are running your still in "Pot still" mode, (i.e. without any perforated plates and a shorter column, like using just the packed extension tube and no dephlegmator,) but it hasn't shown me that it was worth even adding the extension section in the Reflux column.
Just sharing a few of my personal experiences with this thing.

[Euphoria]

Hi T-Pee,
It's OK, they now allow a 26 gallon boiler to exist on the forum. When are you headed back up this way again. If you do, call me and we'll have a couple of beers again. It was fun last time.

[T-Pee]

Would certainly enjoy another visit!
Gotta come visit kids once they hit summer vacation. Gonna bring the trout boat too.

tp

[spiff]

Exactly.. it doesn't ever (edit-usually) increase percentage, but it still manages to strip out further impurities which makes it "better". Better being a matter of opinion of course, and has to be weighed against the overall loss of efficiency of doing the extra runs as each one loses some volume to your product.

Otherwise, I see people getting 96% with 3-4 plates.. so what would be the point of ever running any larger of a rig? If you look at a commercial setup, the better ones look like petroleum distilleries with smoke stack sized columns with hundreds of plates. There is a reason for that. I try to accomplish the same with what i have which means multi-runs. When I compare my first spirit run results with triple ran there is no contest. I would challenge the most discriminating drinking palate to tell that it came from a lowly sugar wash.

But regarding the packing.. the copper packing just isn't there for sulphate removal, right? All that surface area contributes to the reflux action which helps with purity. What I was talking about before was trying packing in the whole column plus the extension, just leaving the plates out.

If my packing is any indication, man, it comes out reeking of tails so I figure its still working.

[joeymac]

Yes, its just a mile high 4in 6 plate flute with extension for packing.

I had another thread on this topic and the consensus is that 96% doesn't mean its aezotropic. Especially on a neutral, the more your run it the better it gets. As I said.. I get 95% on my stripping run and 96% on all spirit runs and it does get noticeably better even so. So it wouldn't be a waste of time. If it were "true" aezotropic then there would be no separation via further distilling. The consensus from my previous thread on the matter was that it was probably impossible to reach true aezotropic on a home rig.

Try it sometime.. run your 96% neutral again (and again and again if you want) and you'll always get more distinct separations (fores, heads, tails) and the product will keep getting better. If this is ones mindset that further runs is a waste of time then I'm willing to bet that there is room for your mind to be blown. If you think you're happy with your single ran neutral I promise that you're in for a paradigm shift in your thinking once you tried it triple ran.

Yep, mine looks just like your picture, just add a foot extension for packing.

Huh? What thread is this? The ethanol-water azeotrope is ~95.6% ABW at 1 standard atmosphere of pressure. You'll get slightly more at higher altitudes and even more under vacuum conditions. If you're hitting the 95%-96% range and can't go any further regardless of increased number of plates then you are at azoetrope.

That being said, azeotrope doesn't mean "neutral" spirit. A bad wash making azeotrope (95-96%) with bad cuts will still have very poor taste. Azeotrope doesn't mean "pure" or "neutral"... just that you've reached the critical point of separating ethanol and water by simple reboiling. Rerunning a 95-96% product multiple times can certainly make a neutral taste much cleaner... but that doesn't have to do with it being or not being azeotrope.

[Euphoria]

Hi spiff,
I'm not really of the mindset, in a plated Reflux Still column anyway, that you would gain much in the way of added reflux from copper mesh packing. Reflux would be occurring on the plates and would be greatly dependent on your dephlegmator's ability to "knock down" the vapors, which then causes reflux to occur. The copper mesh is not real good at retaining liquid, so it doesn't significantly add to refluxing action in a Reflux column. At least not from my experience, such that it is. If your packing comes out black and smelly after a run, then it's done its job. I have done triple distillations, and it is always amazing to see how much more stuff gets pulled out of the product on the copper. Definitely a much cleaner product, especially for neutrals.

[spiff]

joeymac.. yep, you're pretty much saying everything I am..."96% is as high as you can go but doesn't mean aezotropic and reruns make it better."

And my cuts are fine.

Here is the original URL if interested.

http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... aezotropic



Euphoria-oh, bummer. Was hoping running all packing might help with purity (non-percentage wise)- Oh well.. will keep running my plates then.

[bluefish_dist]

Back to the original question. I can run 3 plates and 5' packed 4" off of a single element. That will put out 1 gal/hr at azeo. I have found that aezeo takes a bit of work to hold and get a decent take off rate even from low wines. I want to add a few more feet of packed but am space limited. I hear lots of people claim azeo, but from my experience I was not able to do it with the smaller rigs like others claimed. Could be elevation or that I am using high accuracy Hydrometers.
With still dragon bubble caps I found I would flood at 3500w or so. Once I changed to sieve plates I could push more power. When running 3 plates alone they will easily handle 6k.